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cb1500

Please help me.

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Hello.  I posted here a few times about 3 years ago, but I'm relapsing.  At the time, I was having some major anxiety issues being caused by leftover fears from religion.  After a while, I was able to put the fears out of my mind and live normally, and I was fine until last week.  The doubts and fear of hell came back worse than ever, and I've been thinking about it constantly.  I am absolutely terrified, and I don't know if I l'll be able to overcome this.  Words can't really describe how bad the panic is, and I've been having thoughts of suicide. 

 

This all started years ago because I "blasphemed" god, which I was convinced was unforgivable.  I did tons of research on it, and most Christians said that it's only unforgivable if you continually blaspheme god without repentance, but that didn't help either.  I have no idea what to think, and nothing is helping.

 

I'm going to be talking to a doctor about my anxiety issues, but I need help now.  Please help reassure me that this is all nonsense, because I really can't take it anymore.

 

Thank you.

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It is all nonsense.

 

Watch this: (I made it, yes it needs updating and I can do better, but it gets the point across hopefully)

 

 

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Thanks.  Your video did help calm me down a bit.  I wish it wasn't so hard to get over this.  

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3 minutes ago, cb1500 said:

Thanks.  Your video did help calm me down a bit.  I wish it wasn't so hard to get over this.  

 

Fear of hell is one of the biggest hurdles.

 

I would encourage you, as you've already stated you will, to seek professional help as we are not trained professionals. What we can do is try and answer questions you may have about hell... which actually sounds to me an extraordinary concept because I don't believe hell exists. So I'm literally answering questions about an imagined bad place. And I think that's a key - once you realise hell is imaginary and doesn't exist, the fear of it should subside.

 

There is another great video by another person about the history of how the idea of hell came about - that might help you to understand how this imagined place got written about.

 

Hmm there are a few, and I haven' listened to them so I'm loathe to post them here, but this video about a conversation that Alley43 had with a scared Christian is good. 

 

 

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I Highly doubt that you blasphemed God. Some Christians think that saying "God Damn" "holy shit" or "Jesus fucking Christ" are ways to blaspheme God or "the holy ghost". Others say that blaspheming the Holy Ghost is denying the call of the Holy Ghost for Salvation. I started researching this subject when I was christian looking up key words in the strongs Hebrew/greek dictionary. In the old testament it is worded that "Thou shalt not take the Lords name in vain and that anyone who Takes the Lords name in vain will not be held guiltless." If you look up the words Take and Vain, Take means to lift up and Vain means nothingness, lies, deceit. So then its "Thou shalt not lift up the Lords name in Lies, Deceit, and vanity. Fast forward to the new testament where it says anyone who Blasphemes the Holy ghost can not be forgiven. It is the exact same thing. The only way you can blaspheme the Holy Ghost is to say the Holy Ghost sent you to do something Evil. It happens all the time in cults. Ministers saying that God or the Holy ghost wants them to take your daughters virginity, or take your wife to be his, etc. That is Blaspheming the Holy Ghost and taking the Lords name in vain. It is kind of ridiculous to think that denying the pull of the "holy ghost" (which is all in your imagination anyway BTW) would be unforgivable. Most people do that a few times before they actually can't stand the guilt anymore and commit their lives. If you did it once you wouldn't be able to get "saved" that next time would you? LOL. So odds are you have not committed this sin anyway. Most people haven't even if they actually think they have. 

 

On another note, The bible is filled with brainwashing guilt trips that mess with your head. The whole prospect of a Fire and Brimstone hell didn't come into play until the new testament. After the region had been heavily influences by greek mythology and other religions with dark underworlds. There is no Hell to fear. Just don't get near a volcano and you'll never have to worry about what it feels like under the earths mantel. It was just how their mythology developed to explain volcanoes, sulfur springs, etc. To them these natural phenomena became something supernatural because they didn't have the years of scientific research we have today. Anchor your fears and Beliefs in proven fact and not in silly stories from thousands of years ago, written by ignorant people. 

 

Lets think about this logically as well. If you have this fear so badly why would you want to kill yourself? That would be like taking a high speed express ticket straight to where your afraid of going. Live your life. Don't be afraid of all these things that are just the trappings to control the people of past civilizations. It was all political propaganda to instill these fears that you have so the people would always be obedient to their rulers. The rulers controlled the scripture and their ticket to heaven. 

 

Life is a beautiful thing my friend and you should make the most of it. A book that brainwashes it's readers to the point of feeling the way you do, isn't a book worth reading. If that is God's word, I have no use for such a God or his word. I hope you find peace with this and are able to move on, living a long fruitful life as an ExChristian. 

 

Sincerly,

DB

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Hell is one of the reasons why Christianity has been so successfull over the last 2000 years. Make everyone too scared to even consider leaving it. Heaven is another one. Make you think death is not the end and you get to live forever. 

 

It took a long time for me to get over hell, but now I put it in the nonsense basket along with the hells that many other religions have manufactured to keep people in. 

 

Another thing too, is to look into some other teachings about hell in the bible. It's not actually taught in the OT and there is much to argue that Hell is simply the grave. 

 

But also consider something else. What sort of psychotic stupid moronic God would ever create such a place? In one part of the bible it says it was created only for the demons. So if he's all knowing, he surely would have known he was mainly going to use it on humans. Or else it really is just for demons and believers are using that to try to scare people into remaining Christians and continuing to invest time and money into it. 

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Thanks guys.  I get really overwhelmed by this stuff, so having questions answered by logically minded people helps.  The christian apologist arguments really bother me and make my mind race.  Another thing that bothers me is the idea that Jesus was a real person.  As far as I know, there's no evidence for his existence, but some people think he existed as a regular person.  Not sure what to think about that, if it even matters.

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1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

There is no Hell to fear. Just don't get near a volcano and you'll never have to worry about what it feels like under the earths mantel. It was just how their mythology developed to explain volcanoes, sulfur springs, etc. To them these natural phenomena became something supernatural because they didn't have the years of scientific research we have today. Anchor your fears and Beliefs in proven fact and not in silly stories from thousands of years ago, written by ignorant people. 

 

Having been near a volcano and sulfur springs, I can vouch for this. It would scare the crap out of me if I didn't know what it was all about. How else would you explain it 2000 years ago? Many other things that were ascribed to gods have been proven to be natural events with specific, measurable causes including the wind, rain and thunder. What would they have thought if you could go back in time and fly over them in a helicopter?

 

 

3 minutes ago, cb1500 said:

The christian apologist arguments really bother me and make my mind race.

 

Quit reading that bullshit.

 

And if you get too stressed before your local counselor appointment, call this national help line: 1-800-273-8255. They're there 24/7. It's a secular hotline that anyone under stress is welcome to call. It was founded by the federal government, works with the VA, and gets evaluated by a foundation at Columbia University, so I feel comfortable suggesting it.

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Hey cb1500 -

 

As a fellow anxiety disordered person, i feel your pain and Im sorry you are going through this.

 

One thought, from experience - the things that you're worried about about right now and Afraid about right now might actually be the fruit of anxiety in your life and not the cause of it.

 

Anxiety likes to find a place to take hold and run amok.  When our Baseline anxiety is elevated it will manifest in ways like this - perseverating on a certain line of thought or idea.  When we feel anxious we are feeling out of control and overwhelmed with uncertainty - so thinking about what happens after death is the perfect channel for anxiety to manifest - it's the ultimate uncertainty.

 

Also if you're in the northern hemisphere anxiety gets worse in these lower light months.

 

Try some bright light therapy first thing in the morning, get outside a lot get exercise, surround yourself with people who make you laugh and feel good.  Take a break from punishing yourself with the task of trying to solve the ultimate unknowns of the universe.  

 

Hang in there!

 

 

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2 hours ago, cb1500 said:

The christian apologist arguments really bother me and make my mind race.

 

I am glad you are sharing this.  The sword-wielding apologists bug me more than they do others, and I don’t see why some people egg them on.  I see the forums as a kind of support group, not a playing field for apologists.  In a real support group, if one person was there to drag everyone else down, they would be kicked out.  Remember that (all? most?) of us were once christians too, and we already know all those apologist arguments, and, having worked throught them in our own minds, left christianity.  There’s a reason why we no longer believe.

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30 minutes ago, TEG said:

 

 I see the forums as a kind of support group, not a playing field for apologists.  In a real support group, if one person was there to drag everyone else down, they would be kicked out.

 

 

I agree with you.  When they come here, it might be a good idea to limit them to the lions den.

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9 hours ago, cb1500 said:

The christian apologist arguments really bother me and make my mind race.

I know you feel drawn to it, but you must stop exposing yourself to their lies and brainwashing. 

 

First, why not try to prove to yourself that a god actually exists. Is that god the Bible god? Did he create a hell for his creation? Do you know the Jews don't believe in hell and neither do some Christians? Forget the apologist "arguments." Do they have any actual evidence or just certain Bible verses and Christian authors/preachers to prove their point? No, they do not.

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9 hours ago, cb1500 said:

Thanks guys.  I get really overwhelmed by this stuff, so having questions answered by logically minded people helps.  The christian apologist arguments really bother me and make my mind race.  Another thing that bothers me is the idea that Jesus was a real person.  As far as I know, there's no evidence for his existence, but some people think he existed as a regular person.  Not sure what to think about that, if it even matters.

 

Bart Ehrman thinks he was a person who got mythologized; Richard Carrier thinks he was a myth entirely. It doesn't really matter because either way it ends up myth. You can find some youtube videos that explain it, but I don't think it's worth worrying about any more than stressing about whether Zeus is mad you didn't sacrifice to him this week.

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6 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

I agree with you.  When they come here, it might be a good idea to limit them to the lions den.

Generally, apologists confine themselves to the Lion's Den.  If/when a christian enters another forum, they are free to post, but not preach or proselytize.  If they overstep the boundaries, then they are sent to the Den.  Because the primary purpose of this site is healing.

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          Yeah, anxiety can do weird stuff like that. Know it, feel it. You might have a naturally high level of dopamine, which when it gets overboard transforms into 1. fear, worry, then 2. obsession/mania and 3. schizophrenic hallucinations. People with low dopamine , like Parkinson patients, who take dopamine enhancers, like my grandmother often testify to hallucinations, from slight to severe. This information has been given to me by a licensed MD at a test where a machine concluded I had higher levels of dopamine and an overstimulated amygdala, two things VERY associated with anxiety. Plus it really matters what you with these introjects. I suggest reading or listening to cult researchers and therapists. ICSA, international cultic association is a good site. Phobia indoctrination is one of the first things in any cult. They make their own psychological prison with this. Gillie jenkinson has this good idea about introjects. Steve Hassan, Janja Lalich, Alexandra Stein, Michael Langone. Rachel Bernstein has interesting podcast, called Indoctrination, free on soundcloud and others, where interviews former cult members usually. Jon Atack has a youtube channel, and some books. 

           Also some things about trauma theory, from Bessel van der Kolk, to Franz Ruppert, to Pat Ogden, Daniel Siegel, etc. The thing is that our body does work linearly as one might expect. Some children have sexual trauma, they THINK they got over it, then they get overwhelming anxieties in their thirties about it. Who knows what made all that suppresed trauma come forth.

            Also, you might have some body issues that caused your oveheming anxiety. I have been diagnosed with leaky gut and poor gut flora plus a full bile, which are all associtaed with high levels of anxiety. And some toxic stuff. 

             Finally, I came to the conclusion, that if Hell exists, then there is ONLY Hell anyway. Because living in communion with a being that created other creatures just to praise him, and some knowing they will end up in torment, sounds just like another torment. Plus, as I was said by Sam Harris and others, how much time do you spend worrying about Allah sending you to hell for not accepting Mohamed as prophet? Or fear of Hades because you did not worship Zeus? O worshipping me, because I could also tell you anyone who refuses to bow down to me will spend eternity in suffering. I suspect 0, absolute 0.

          

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Yeah, I've had anxiety issues since I was a kid, and it seems like they just got worse over time.  The soonest I could get an appointment with a doctor is January 30th.  Is it likely that I'll get a secular counselor that will actually understand?  Amazing how mentally and physically exhausting this is.  Seems to get worse in the evening which makes sleeping really difficult.  

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27 minutes ago, cb1500 said:

Yeah, I've had anxiety issues since I was a kid, and it seems like they just got worse over time.  The soonest I could get an appointment with a doctor is January 30th.  Is it likely that I'll get a secular counselor that will actually understand?  Amazing how mentally and physically exhausting this is.  Seems to get worse in the evening which makes sleeping really difficult.  

 

You could contact Recovering from Religion. I understand they have trained professionals to deal with exactly what you are going through. Probably better than a doctor or just general secular therapist because they are specifically trained for dealing with religious trauma.

 

They've got live chat function, ability to phone call etc. It probably should have been my first suggestion in hindsight - I know about these guys, don't know why I didn't immediately recommend it. But I am now - give these folks a call or contact them via website. https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/  (phone 1-844-368-2848)

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And, I repeat look up the ICSA network of specialists. Until then CBD oil, bach flower solutions, some essential oils, rhodiola rosea and 5 htp are some over the counter supplements that have helped a little with this. Zinc and magnesium.

       Qi qong , meditation and streches for anxiety help. 

        Also cutting off inflamatory foods like alchohol caffeine many spices, animal products and consuming plant proteins and carbohydrates, unprocesed, 

      Hot baths. Many of these advices you can also find on the net also.

 

Yes it does get worse in the evening for many people. The darkness the lomelines creeps better I suppose.  Who knows else.

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Hi cb1500.  I'm sorry you've been having such a rough time.  Although I've experienced deconversion of course, as we all have here, I've never suffered from anxiety as some others have.   I'm just not prone to anxiety, whether it's Nature or Nurture or whatever, but I know it's very real for a lot of people.  

 

 I see where you were only very briefly active here at Ex-C, three years ago, and then disappeared.  Of course nobody is under any obligation to stick around, but I think it is important for many.   Deconversion experiences are as varied as the people who have them, but one thing I can say for sure is that's a process, not an event like changing channels on a TV.  It often takes years for religious faith to lose its grip on your mind.   For me and for many others, that process was helped by hanging out here in these forums.  Although I was already no longer a Christian when I first posted here (also around three years ago, as it happens), I've progressed since then, my deconversion has deepened, and I became ever more at home in my new view of life and the world.  So I'd suggest that you become a regular visitor here and absorb some of the ex-Christian "vibe", maybe.

 

I do hope you get professional help, and I strongly support LogicalFallacy's recommendation that you contact the folks at Recovering from Religion.  They've walked the walk and can understand what you've been though, and unlike me and the others here, they've been trained to help people.  In the meantime, you could do a lot worse than make sure you get vigorous exercise and eat well, and spend time outdoors, in sunshine if possible.  And of course get good rest, if you can.  Some of the best things in life really are free.  

 

We're here for you man.  We understand each other in a way that others can't.  Keep in touch, OK?

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4 hours ago, TABA said:

Deconversion experiences are as varied as the people who have them, but one thing I can say for sure is that's a process, not an event like changing channels on a TV.  It often takes years for religious faith to lose its grip on your mind.   For me and for many others, that process was helped by hanging out here in these forums. 

I'll be sticking around this time for sure.  Guess I had to find out the hard way that it's not a quick process.  

 

On 12/17/2019 at 5:15 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

You could contact Recovering from Religion. I understand they have trained professionals to deal with exactly what you are going through. Probably better than a doctor or just general secular therapist because they are specifically trained for dealing with religious trauma.

I will definitely be contacting them.  Looks like they also have some group meetups which sounds great to me.  The closest one is about 80 miles from me, but it's probably worth the drive.  

 

4 hours ago, TABA said:

We're here for you man.  We understand each other in a way that others can't.  Keep in touch, OK?

Thank you.  I will be keeping in touch, and I'm really glad to have this place.  The people around me are generally supportive, but it doesn't seem like they understand exactly where I'm coming from, so groups like this are very important to me.  

 

18 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

And, I repeat look up the ICSA network of specialists. Until then CBD oil, bach flower solutions, some essential oils, rhodiola rosea and 5 htp are some over the counter supplements that have helped a little with this. Zinc and magnesium.

Thank you very much for the suggestions.  I'm willing to try anything.  

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On 12/16/2019 at 8:37 PM, cb1500 said:

Hello.  I posted here a few times about 3 years ago, but I'm relapsing.  At the time, I was having some major anxiety issues being caused by leftover fears from religion.  After a while, I was able to put the fears out of my mind and live normally, and I was fine until last week.  The doubts and fear of hell came back worse than ever, and I've been thinking about it constantly.  I am absolutely terrified, and I don't know if I l'll be able to overcome this.  Words can't really describe how bad the panic is, and I've been having thoughts of suicide. 

 

This all started years ago because I "blasphemed" god, which I was convinced was unforgivable.  I did tons of research on it, and most Christians said that it's only unforgivable if you continually blaspheme god without repentance, but that didn't help either.  I have no idea what to think, and nothing is helping.

 

I'm going to be talking to a doctor about my anxiety issues, but I need help now.  Please help reassure me that this is all nonsense, because I really can't take it anymore.

 

Thank you.

 

Hey cb1500, no need to be alarmed. As real as it may seem at times, it's folklore, mythology, fairy tales of old, etc., etc. What if Thor is real? What if Kali is real? I'm sure you think it's extremely likely that they are not. But it's just as unlikely that YHWH is real, or hell is real for that matter. These are just as equally unlikely as another. Why would any of it be real? 

 

Why don't you try, for the sake of argument, to demonstrate all of the evidence you have for the reality of hell, or god for that matter. And see how we respond to it. How we counter the apologist's and their arguments. Take it all in. Learn from the exchange. 

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I personally found it helpful to think of this stuff in psychological terms. 

 

I mean it is sure we humans have a tendency to personify nature. We give mountains names, we form attachments to dogs as " friends" , We have symbolic wild dreams - at least I do. 

 

In this way the God of the Bible seems like a mix of the universe plus the characteristics of certain tribal chieftains merged plus personal projectiobs and sone attempts to order it all up. Like a collective work of art.

 

And the bible is a diverse set of writings from different authors with different views written for different purposes.

 

There are some clear contradictions in that theology.

 

God is everywhere but no one can see him. 

 

He is all powerful, but does not show his power clearly. Except in ancient stories or mostly in them.

 

He is all wise, but makes mistake after mistake with his own creatin and chosen people which goes astray.

 

He wants you to be perfect and sinless but only allows you if you recognises you are flawed sick and sinful.

 

He hates or disaproves of Satan but uses him to tempt and punish people.

 

He is all knowing but he, somehow, creates libertarian free will in the same time.

 

He praises good actions but he expects to be recognised as his own will and power.

 

He saves you, but the enemy is either himself or his creation, the devil,  overwhich he has complete control.

 

He is judge but akso juror attorney prosecutor mediator and even defendant in Christ.

 

Christ is the invulnerable God but suffers and dies . 

 

Christianity is monotheism but with a trinity, countless angels and saints.

 

You can pray, but only for God s will which is supposedly going to happen anyway. 

 

He requites belief and faith but belief and faith is a gift from God to those prepared to receive it.

 

He is all present but uses humans and ancient transportation to spread the Gospel, literally the most important thing, arriving in America only in the 15 century

 

He says do not kill but makes the world salvation plan work through a public murder - Christ crucifixion

 

I have not encountered so far any kind of  theological model that is coherent and correponding to my sense of reality. I have read and herd attemots and rationalizations but how many plates can you spin in the same time?

 

I am not saying there is not one but so far nothing really satisfying. It looks more the inner contradictions in the human soul than the divine perfect harmony.

 

In short the God of the Bible as usually taught and presented is far too human to be GOD in my view

 

 

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On 12/16/2019 at 10:32 PM, cb1500 said:

Thanks guys.  I get really overwhelmed by this stuff, so having questions answered by logically minded people helps.  The christian apologist arguments really bother me and make my mind race.  Another thing that bothers me is the idea that Jesus was a real person.  As far as I know, there's no evidence for his existence, but some people think he existed as a regular person.  Not sure what to think about that, if it even matters.

 

Remember the story where Paul started a fight between the Pharisees and Sadducees? It's in Acts 23. He used the fact that the Sadducees didn't believe in a resurrection to get them into an argument and get himself out of a jam. There are a number of passages in the Gospels and in Acts that make it clear that the Sadducees didn't believe in any sort of afterlife.

 

It's presented as strange, and just plain wrong, but why? Because by the time of the NT most Jews did believe in such things. So why not the Sadducees? The answer is simple: It was unscriptural! Christians today look at the NT and impose it on the OT, but in the 1st century there was no NT! The Sadducees read their Bible, which is, in general, what we call the Old Testament, and there was nothing in there about Hell, and nothing about people going to Heaven or anywhere else when they died. Heaven was where the god lived, and that's it.

 

This makes it obvious that the Jews had picked up the idea of life-after-death sometime "between the testaments." It's proof that Judaism evolved, and Christians just started with 1st century Judaism and mixed in other things.

 

My point is this: Among the things that make it clear that the Bible isn't some perfectly consistent book, but rather, and assemblage of beliefs about a god/gods, is this total lack of any belief in life after death in the Old Testament. It's all speculation, and none of it is real. Jehovah isn't real. Jesus, if there ever was such a person, wasn't a god. There's no Holy Spirit that can be "blasphemed." And there's no such thing as Hell that people should be afraid of it.

 

If I understand correctly, the original thinking of the Jews was that their oppressors would go to Hell. Christianity turned it into a place a person would wind up, not if they were bad, but if they merely didn't believe the right things. That belief is a big part of Christianity's success as a meme, so it's no surprise that you would have the fear -- but don't! It's bogus. You only have to take one step back to see that there's no such place, in exactly the same way there are no such things as ghosts, spirits, angels, demons, gods, or any other sorts of minds without bodies.

 

The speculation about a place of eternal torment is a very powerful mental device, but that's all it is -- a scare tactic that evolved organically and helped a religion to survive.

 

Hope this helps.

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18 hours ago, Lerk said:

 

Remember the story where Paul started a fight between the Pharisees and Sadducees? It's in Acts 23. He used the fact that the Sadducees didn't believe in a resurrection to get them into an argument and get himself out of a jam. There are a number of passages in the Gospels and in Acts that make it clear that the Sadducees didn't believe in any sort of afterlife.

 

It's presented as strange, and just plain wrong, but why? Because by the time of the NT most Jews did believe in such things. So why not the Sadducees? The answer is simple: It was unscriptural! Christians today look at the NT and impose it on the OT, but in the 1st century there was no NT! The Sadducees read their Bible, which is, in general, what we call the Old Testament, and there was nothing in there about Hell, and nothing about people going to Heaven or anywhere else when they died. Heaven was where the god lived, and that's it.

 

This makes it obvious that the Jews had picked up the idea of life-after-death sometime "between the testaments." It's proof that Judaism evolved, and Christians just started with 1st century Judaism and mixed in other things.

 

 

It was quite an eye-opener for me when I learned - from Bart Ehrman's terrific books - that a new strain of Jewish thinking was emerging in the one or two centuries before the supposed birth of Jesus.  Scholars were wrestling with the long-held belief that the children of Israel would prosper when they did Jehovah's will and would suffer when they did not.  By this period, with the Jews being repeatedly conquered and oppressed by various powerful neighbors, another solution was needed to explain why they suffered even when they did follow their God's laws. 

 

The emerging idea was the existence of a force of Evil in the world, a force in rebellion against God, and it was this force, not God's wrath, that cause the people's suffering.  But fear not, went the new teaching:  God will only tolerate this for a little while longer before sending his representative to defeat the Evil One once and for all, along with the earthly oppressors of Israel, and to establish his eternal kingdom. 

 

It was this school of thought that created the fertile ground from which Christianity grew.  Except that Christianity had to come to terms with the fact that, decades after Jesus had left the scene, evil was still very much present and the Romans were still very much in control of the land of Israel.  Evidently nothing had changed, so the eternal kingdom was re-imagined as being something that could not be shown to be false:  something off in the future, or maybe something that lived inside the hearts of believers.

 

So here we have the ultimate evolution as Satan as a powerful being, created by God, but somehow (temporarily?) allowed by God to have his way on the Earth.  The concept of Hell was still developing, and only reached its "modern" form in Dante's "Inferno", 1300 years later.

 

So do you see the flimsy foundations upon which the Christian concepts of Hell and Satan are built?  Smoke and mirrors.

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On 12/18/2019 at 9:02 PM, Joshpantera said:

Hey cb1500, no need to be alarmed. As real as it may seem at times, it's folklore, mythology, fairy tales of old, etc., etc. What if Thor is real? What if Kali is real? I'm sure you think it's extremely likely that they are not. But it's just as unlikely that YHWH is real, or hell is real for that matter. These are just as equally unlikely as another. Why would any of it be real? 

 

Why don't you try, for the sake of argument, to demonstrate all of the evidence you have for the reality of hell, or god for that matter. And see how we respond to it. How we counter the apologist's and their arguments. Take it all in. Learn from the exchange. 

 

I think the idea of "this is the one true religion", which got shoved down my throat by a lot of people, is the only reason I ever believed it.  The apologist arguments are just insane to me.  The way they twist things, and have so much confidence in all of the nasty, ridiculous things they day.  

 

12 hours ago, Lerk said:

The speculation about a place of eternal torment is a very powerful mental device, but that's all it is -- a scare tactic that evolved organically and helped a religion to survive.

 

Hope this helps.

 

That certainly did help, and I actually felt a little more normal today.  Thanks.

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