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Moonobserver

Is Christian fundamentalism finding its moral compass again?

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3 hours ago, older said:

As Citsonga noted above, if we remove the political issues, Trump still fails the "Christian Values" test. He has had three wives and has cheated on all three of them. He has bragged about sexually abusing women. He has made cruel and insensitive remarks about the disabled, prisoners of war, and the deceased. He lies on a regular basis. He has violated five of the Ten Commandments. And he has used vulgar words including "shit", "fuck", "son-of-a-bitch", and "motherfucker" in his public speeches. None of this is subject to dispute, yet so-called Christians somehow rationalize their support by claiming that he supports their long-term goals, which include prohibition of abortion, the subjugation of the LGBTQ community, and the creation of a theocracy. Thus the end justifies the means.

Their excuse for him is that "God uses imperfect people". Every time they say that, I want to throw 2 Corinthians 6:14 at them:

 

"Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion has light with darkness?"

 

They certainly use that one often enough about others.

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6 hours ago, TABA said:


If it were Trump vs Trudeau, I’d vote None of the Above.  I’d vote for Stephen Harper for POTUS if he could run. 

 

I'd vote Trudeau ten times out of ten if the only alternative was Trump. And I'm not that big of a Trudeau fan. For that matter, I'd vote Harper ten times out of ten, and I really don't like Harper.

 

This is the problem. Trump is not normal. When he is compared to normal options,  it legitimizes him. He's. Not.  Normal. Somehow, Americans seem to have lost track of that.

 

"None of the above" is wonderful in principle,  but in practice it basically boils down to MAGA. Sorry to be blunt,  but that's how I see it as an outsider.

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13 hours ago, disillusioned said:

I'd vote Trudeau ten times out of ten if the only alternative was Trump.

 

Is Trudeau that different from Hillary, though?

 

When Hillary was the only alternative, the better choice for many was still Trump, despite all his character flaws. Look at USA now. Everything is fine, the economy has still been growing stronger. Everyone screamed he'll be Hitler and still treat him like he is, when he actually proved to be harmless.

 

Why would anyone who voted for Trump jump ship?

 

Trump's gonna win in 2020 without anyone being able to challenge him.

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On 12/20/2019 at 9:01 PM, Weezer said:

I am beginning to see how Hitler came to power.

 

Me, too, but it's probably different from how you see it.

 

Most of the mainstream media have joined the Democrats in demonizing Trump and rallying their audience on a crusade of hatred against him, with little evidence of any wrongdoing, let alone any remarkable wrongdoing. Fools blinded by their self-righteousness seem perfectly willing to erode democracy in order to depose someone they have decided to project all their grievances on.

 

My guess is all they'll truly accomplish is eroding their own credibility.

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On 12/21/2019 at 1:14 PM, TABA said:


If it were Trump vs Trudeau, I’d vote None of the Above.  I’d vote for Stephen Harper for POTUS if he could run. 

Harper? Geez. The thing with Canadian politicians is they don't advertise their religious beliefs. But if you want to you can figure out exactly what they are and Harper was right up there in league with Pence. 

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6 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

. Look at USA now. Everything is fine

What a joke

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6 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

 

 Look at USA now. Everything is fine, the economy has still been growing stronger. 

 

 

True.  But the thing that bothers me is the similarities to the "roaring twenties" that led up to the great depression of 1930s.  Yes, deregulation helps the economy temporarily, but can lead to even bigger problems like housing bubbles, environmental damage, etc.  And our national debt is skyrocketing, while our infrastructure is decaying.  Who is going to rebuild all that when it collapses?  Remember that Trump declared bankruptcy at least 4 times.  If he is such a financial wizard, why doesn't he let people see his tax returns?  And he is an arrogant, disrespectful, self centered, pussy grabbing person who is only interested in his own ego, and is giving our nation a bad name in the world. 

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6 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

little evidence of any wrongdoing

 

LMAO! 

 

Dude, it's everywhere.

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14 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Remember that Trump declared bankruptcy at least 4 times.

 

When you invest, things like occasional bankruptcies don't really matter. You gotta take risks if you seek gains. Some losses are inevitable. How many businesses does a billionaire own, anyway? Dozens? Hundreds? What's 4 failed ventures there? You'd have to compare aggregate sums of lost money vs. gained money to judge him as a businessman.

 

17 minutes ago, Weezer said:

If he is such a financial wizard, why doesn't he let people see his tax returns?  And he is an arrogant, disrespectful, self centered, pussy grabbing person who is only interested in his own ego, and is giving our nation a bad name in the world. 

 

I've no clue about his tax returns, but  he doesn't have to be a financial wizard in any case. It's enough he is competent. In fact, you have a 2-party system, so logically it's enough if he isn't as big of a disaster a Democrat would be. You say you have a skyrocketing national debt. Increasing public health care & forgiving student debts isn't gonna alleviate that.

 

As for his personality, what does it matter? He could be the lowest scum of earth but if he acts businesslike in office and serves the interests of American people, his vices are irrelevant. Bad name? So has every US president. Warmongering, drone strikes, sex scandals, whatever. You don't need to be loved if you are the strongest. Everyone will have to deal with you and take you seriously regardless.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Weezer said:

But the thing that bothers me is the similarities to the "roaring twenties" that led up to the great depression of 1930s.

 

That concerns me, too.

 

In addition to that, though, it's ridiculous for people to credit Trump with the economy when it was already on the upswing before he was elected. He inherited a growing economy. 

 

Another issue is that even though the unemployment rate is the lowest it's been in a long time, most of the jobs that have been added are not jobs one can support a family on. Where are the great jobs Trump promised?

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1 hour ago, Citsonga said:

 

LMAO! 

 

Dude, it's everywhere.

 

There have certainly been a lot of accusations flung at Trump during the past 3+ years. Some of them even have a little merit, such as his failure to end American involvement in foreign wars. Then again, that accusation only comes from the Right and the shunned anti-war Left, so let's forget that after all.

 

As for the whole election-meddling Russian lapdog narrative? Gone out of the window. Wasn't even one of the impeachment articles. For all their talk of impeachment since day 0, the Democrats and the left-leaning media sure were lucky that Trump finally did something impeachable more than 2 years into his presidency. If he hadn't, they would've probably had to whip up something disproportionate out of a minor matter to save their faces. I'm happy for them it didn't need to come to that. :rolleyes:

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12 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

he actually proved to be harmless.

Harmless?

 

https://brookings.edu/research/the-moral-and-policy-failures-of-immigration-detainee-vaccination-policy/

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5 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

 

There have certainly been a lot of accusations flung at Trump during the past 3+ years. Some of them even have a little merit,......

 

 

You must only watch Fox news. 

 

Also, successful business people try their best to make a business successful, and pay their creditors, subcontractors,  etc, and not leave them holding an empty bag.  And they feel terrible if they have to declare bankruptcy.

 

Charlatans try and make a buck any way they can, and see bankruptcy, and hurting others, as just another method of doing business.  Grabbing women's pussy (his own words) is an excelent metaphor for Trump's modus operandi.  Yes, that is high school locker room talk, but he was 50(?) Years old when he said that.  

 

7 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

 

As for his personality, what does it matter? He could be the lowest scum of earth but if he acts businesslike in office and serves the interests of American people, his vices are irrelevant. 

 

 

That kind of thinking scares me.

 

Some "vices" go over the line.  Some of his are toxic.  Success in America is more than a rising stock market, and more money in the pockets of rich people.  And he is NOT business like.  Many of his aids have left him because he would not listen to them.  He is impulsive, his ego drives him, and he is at times delusional.  That and his narcissistic disrespect is NOT business like, and has fueled more division in our country than anyone I have observed in 78 years. 

 

My personal guess is that he doesn't want people seeing his tax records because they would show he isn't as successful as he claims.

 

And it would be nice to have better role models for our children.  And the childish adults in our society who admire and imitate bullies. 

 

Like Hitler, he is power hungry, but his thinking is not as organized as Hitler's.  It is obvious he admires dictators.  Without our governments checks and balances he could be really dangerous.  And by the way, he may be showing some signs of dementia.

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On 12/20/2019 at 9:19 PM, older said:

I think it comes down to abortion. Extremist Christians will never back down on that and will vote accordingly, everything else being less important. 

Abortion is a big one, but the legalization of same-sex marriage sent them into a tizzy as well.

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On 12/21/2019 at 5:48 PM, disillusioned said:

This is the problem. Trump is not normal. When he is compared to normal options,  it legitimizes him. He's. Not.  Normal. Somehow, Americans seem to have lost track of that.

As deeply disgusted as most of us are with him, collectively we can't bring ourselves to admit that our beloved system is broken; we're too deeply enamoured of the notion that it can never fail. In addition, our corporate media slavishly bullhorn our two-party-dominated political system as the only game in town and keep our flabby minds in thrall with their exaltation of shiny-object entertainment. They pander to both our childish pride and our addiction to comfort, and their efforts are embarrassingly effective.

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16 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

 

There have certainly been a lot of accusations flung at Trump during the past 3+ years. Some of them even have a little merit, such as his failure to end American involvement in foreign wars. Then again, that accusation only comes from the Right and the shunned anti-war Left, so let's forget that after all.

 

As for the whole election-meddling Russian lapdog narrative? Gone out of the window.

 

I never said anything about wars or Russia, and I don't recall anyone else here mentioning those either.

 

The issue is your false claim that there is "little evidence of any wrongdoing" by Trump. We have the transcript of him asking a foreign leader to investigate his political rival. We have an audio recording of him bragging about sexually assaulting women. We have his tweets and speeches where he bullies people. There's plenty fact-checking showing that he lies constantly. He praises dictators. The list goes on and on.

 

Trump is the most arrogant, self-centered, egotistical, lying-ass sack of shit president we've ever had, at least in my lifetime.

 

16 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

Trump finally did something impeachable more than 2 years into his presidency.

 

Ah, so you now admit that there is viable evidence against him, huh?

 

If a Democrat did the things listed above, you know damn well that the Republicans and FauxNews would be screaming bloody murder (and rightly so). Heck, just being divorced and remarried multiple times would've gotten the religious right's panties in a knot. However, since he has that "R" by his name, they bury their heads in the sand and pretend it's no big deal. Friggin' hypocrites.

 

(To be fair, there's hypocrisy in the Democrat camp, too. It's just that at this point in time it's clearly worse on the Republican side.)

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23 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

Most of the mainstream media have joined the Democrats in demonizing Trump

 

FauxNews and conservative talk radio have joined the Republicans in worshiping the demon.

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Fox News and MSNBC have been partisan cheerleaders since they started up.  But one hallmark of the Trump era is the way previously-respected news outlets have sacrificed their credibility with a big segment of the population.  The New York Times and CNN especially have very clearly taken a side.  They’re not satisfied anymore to report the news and let people draw their own conclusions.  They have joined the resistance.  If you agree with them, this might seem like a good thing, but when public trust in the media is as low as it is today, as demonstrated by poll after poll, it is bad for our society.  

 

The big three news channels only care about ratings and clicks.  As the head of CBS news infamously said a few years ago: It may not be good for America, but it’s good for CBS News. 

 

I can think of only one TV news source these days that I trust: the PBS News Hour.  Each one hour show is more informative and thought-provoking than 24 hours of the cable news channels all combined.  

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2 minutes ago, TABA said:

I can think of only one TV news source these days that I trust: the PBS News Hour.  Each one hour show is more informative and thought-provoking than 24 hours of the cable news channels all combined.  


The sad fact is that, in this as in religion, most people don’t want thought-provoking, they want their existing beliefs and biases confirmed. 

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On 12/20/2019 at 11:14 AM, Citsonga said:

Nah. The fundamentalists call Christianity Today a liberal magazine. 

 

It is good to see CT take on the issue, though. 

 

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/12/23/177-evangelical-pastors-slam-christianity-todays-anti-trump-op-ed

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