Jump to content
TABA

Just Another Day in Pakistan

Recommended Posts

Bhim, if some of your statements fall into certain hands, you might get put on a list as a potential terrorist.   I have a relative that that happened to and it caused him some problems.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 12/22/2019 at 9:42 AM, TABA said:

 

Yes, the UAE is one of the better ones.  

I've only heard about the UAE, haven't visited, but it sounds like it's a country of unbelievable riches and unbelievable poverty, (that enables that opulence). Such places won't be receiving my tourism dollars. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I've only heard about the UAE, haven't visited, but it sounds like it's a country of unbelievable riches and unbelievable poverty, (that enables that opulence). Such places won't be receiving my tourism dollars. 

 


 Wealth CAN actually be created: people can become wealthy without stealing from others.  I spent a year in the UAE and didn’t see any signs of poverty.  I get the impression the oil wealth has been pretty well distributed in the Emirates and other Gulf countries - in stark contrast to another oil-rich country where I spent time: Nigeria; disgustingly corrupt, a small sliver of high placed government types skimmed off the riches and left it a true third-world country.  So the existence of wealth doesn’t mean somebody is getting screwed.  Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t.  You do an injustice to the UAE. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, TABA said:

You do an injustice to the UAE

In fairness they do report a 19% poverty rate, but that is set incredibly low ($20 a day). There have been many complaints about the treatment of migrant workers, horrible conditions and debt slavery. They have taken some legal steps to fix the problems but its far from great for many people living there. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/15/2020 at 7:55 PM, Weezer said:

Bhim, if some of your statements fall into certain hands, you might get put on a list as a potential terrorist.   I have a relative that that happened to and it caused him some problems.

 

At this point in the national discourse, I'd be honored to be labeled a white supremacist if only for the irony (since I'm not remotely white, in case anyone has forgotten). Sorry, but I cannot relent from my position that the practice of Islam should be banned within the United States.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Bhim said:

I cannot relent from my position that the practice of Islam should be banned within the United States.

That is precisely the attitude that breeds terrorists. It is antithetical to the precepts and foundation of America. It is Un-American. It would create extremists who otherwise would not be without an all out war on their religion. The actual threat from Islamic fanatics pales in comparison to other current threats plaguing our nation.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, florduh said:

That is precisely the attitude that breeds terrorists. It is antithetical to the precepts and foundation of America. It is Un-American. It would create extremists who otherwise would not be without an all out war on their religion. The actual threat from Islamic fanatics pales in comparison to other current threats plaguing our nation.

Really strange how the concept that hatred breeds more hatred and conflict cannot be understood. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Really strange how the concept that hatred breeds more hatred and conflict cannot be understood. 

 

This isn't a failure to understand. I understand your point, and I disagree with you. I contend that Muslims should be forced to stop practicing Islam.

 

Sincere question: do you concur that two individuals can fully understand one another's opinions without adopting said opinions? If not, we may have reached an impasse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, florduh said:

That is precisely the attitude that breeds terrorists. It is antithetical to the precepts and foundation of America. It is Un-American. It would create extremists who otherwise would not be without an all out war on their religion. The actual threat from Islamic fanatics pales in comparison to other current threats plaguing our nation.

 

It seems to me that the threat of mainstream Islam - not fundamentalist Islam, but the variety practiced by the average Dearborn, MI resident - is a fairly severe threat to American culture. These people threaten my right to practice my religion, and your right to not practice any religion. If the government shuddered the doors on my local temple, I might become angry, but I don't see myself becoming a terrorist. If there exist people who resort to violence when the exercise of their religion is curtailed, then perhaps those people don't belong here to begin with. A person who will strap on a suicide vest just because I take away his Qu'ran is a person who should receive a free one way ticket to literally anywhere outside of the United States.

 

As to the precepts and foundation of America, I'm very much a fan of said values. However let's step back for a moment and accept the reality that our collective rejection of Jesus is not something of which any founding father would approve. I'm not even sure Thomas Paine would celebrate the depth of our apostasy. So is this a place you really want to go?

 

I realize there's an oversimplification involved in binary choices, but it's worth asking why exactly you want more Muslim neighbors (feel free to reject my premise). I hate to quote far-right European politicians, but do you want more Muslims or less Muslims? Could you at least agree with the proposition that we should make efforts to stop bringing people into the country who are known practitioners of the Muslim faith? I'm honestly trying to understand your position on Muslims. Muslims seem to me like generally horrible people who don't belong in civilized society. I fully accept that Western democracies afford individuals the right to be horrible, but it seems to me like immigration checkpoints are a logical place to select against horrid attributes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Bhim said:

Muslims seem to me like generally horrible people who don't belong in civilized society.

 

Bhim, I have gone to school and worked with muslims, and there are many public figures in the U.S. who are muslim.  I hate to tell you this but you are over the top here.  Your statement is like equating all christians with the KKK, or abortion doctor assassins.  They aren’t all like that.  In fact only a small minority.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Bhim said:

I contend that Muslims should be forced to stop practicing Islam.

That's not possible even if it was a good idea. I suppose we could burn down all the mosques, but we can't stop people from believing and practicing their religion; we would have to change human nature. Outlawing religion has never worked and persecution only unites the believers against a common enemy.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, florduh said:

That's not possible even if it was a good idea. I suppose we could burn down all the mosques, but we can't stop people from believing and practicing their religion; we would have to change human nature. Outlawing religion has never worked and persecution only unites the believers against a common enemy.

 

You're free to comment on my propositions of course, but I did ask a specific question in order to understand your position, which you didn't address yet. Do you want more Muslims or less Muslims (or alternatively, no change in the number of Muslims)? This isn't a question about implementation. I'm trying to figure out what you believe makes Muslims valuable or worth having as your neighbors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, TEG said:

 

Bhim, I have gone to school and worked with muslims, and there are many public figures in the U.S. who are muslim.  I hate to tell you this but you are over the top here.  Your statement is like equating all christians with the KKK, or abortion doctor assassins.  They aren’t all like that.  In fact only a small minority.

 

Sure, not all people who say they are Christians are horrible people. But surely you would agree that simply going to a church on Sunday doesn't make someone a Christian in any meaningful sense of the word. It's the belief, the buy-in to the fundamental theology, which makes one a Christian. I think most here would concede that if you believe the punishment for shoplifting should be eternal conscious torment in hell, then you are a bad person. I simply use the same metric with Muslims, i.e. I judge these people by their professed beliefs.

 

As an Indian I of course know a lot of Muslims. Sure, most of them seem decent on the surface, as long as you don't talk about Indian or Middle Eastern politics. If you broach such topics, they espouse some views that you would find morally questionable at best. If you don't believe my anecdotal evidence, see the survey from the Pew Research Center in 2017 which asked Muslims in various countries if they support making Sharia the law of the land in Muslim countries. In Pakistan 84% said yes, and in Bangladesh it was 82%. These are countries whose populations were part of India just a century ago, and who were inculcated into the religious pluralism of a Hindu society. Yet they wish to live like barbarians.

 

I believe that referring to such individuals as horrible people is justified here. Even if there is to be some debate on the topic though, I would ask: why take the risk when we are all agreed on the basic negativity of Abrahamic religions? Given the choice of allowing Muslims into the United States and not allowing them, why not choose the latter? No one is entitled to emigrate to a different country, so why voluntarily grant them this privilege at potential risk to ourselves?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bhim said:

 

You're free to comment on my propositions of course, but I did ask a specific question in order to understand your position, which you didn't address yet. Do you want more Muslims or less Muslims (or alternatively, no change in the number of Muslims)? This isn't a question about implementation. I'm trying to figure out what you believe makes Muslims valuable or worth having as your neighbors.

Muslims as a group are no more or less desirable as neighbors than are Christians, Hindus, Jews or Satanists. I even have a friend who is a Scientologist and clearly his religion is a crock and has proven dangerous on occasion. I also think the impossibility of implementing a ban on a mainstream religion is entirely relevant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Bhim,

 

As you know, theirs so little difference between Islam and Christianity that we dont have to have government agencies trying to delete databases of either religion's extreme terrorist activity within our own borders. You know -- since terrorist activity is only spawned from trying to take religious liberties away and all.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/7/2020 at 10:41 AM, florduh said:

Humans tend to thrive on hate. The entire alt-right regime we're seeing now has mastered the art of capitalizing on that. Sewing the seeds of hate for a common "enemy" is the key element to a successful dictatorship.

And those "on the left" are spewing their own forms of hate and politicians are using that to their own advantage - just like like clergy using religion to control people and gain power and money. Unless people learn to suspect that is what is going on in many forms of "leadership" we will continue to experience turmoil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, florduh said:

Muslims as a group are no more or less desirable as neighbors than are Christians, Hindus, Jews or Satanists. I even have a friend who is a Scientologist and clearly his religion is a crock and has proven dangerous on occasion. I also think the impossibility of implementing a ban on a mainstream religion is entirely relevant.

At the present point int time xtians are not as undesirable as folks from some other religions who openly seek to kill anyone who is not a member of their religion. However, if/when the xtians gain as much power in the U.S. as Muslims have in some Middle Eastern countries we will learn to fear and loath them in the same manor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, MOHO said:

 However, if/when the xtians gain as much power in the U.S. as Muslims have in some Middle Eastern countries we will learn to fear and loath them in the same manor.

 

As was evident in the middle ages.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, MOHO said:

And those "on the left" are spewing their own forms of hate and politicians are using that to their own advantage - just like like clergy using religion to control people and gain power and money. Unless people learn to suspect that is what is going on in many forms of "leadership" we will continue to experience turmoil.

 

I have never not voted in a presidential election, even if I was just voting against the other candidate.  The way things are going, I may not know who to vote against this time.

 

51 minutes ago, MOHO said:

At the present point int time xtians are not as undesirable as folks from some other religions who openly seek to kill anyone who is not a member of their religion.

 

Christianity is one of those “some other” religions; look at the mosque and synagogue shootings.  Yes, that’s not mainstream christianity, but neither are suicide bombers mainstream islam.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ficino @TheRedneckProfessor regarding hatred of Muslim people as opposed to their religion, you both made points which I seemed to miss earlier. I think this is worthy of some exploration.

 

The idea of "love the sinner, hate the sin" is of course something we all learned from Christianity. Now, I am not so disconnected from logic and reason as to reject a proposition simply because Christianity teaches it. However, I do think that this is a fundamentally untenable position. If someone does something that negatively affects an individual or society, there will be some level of antipathy towards that person. On a related note, I firmly believe that a person's professed beliefs are an excellent grounds on which to judge them. If I made the same statements with regards to black people, Germans, hermaphrodites, etc., I think you would have a legitimate grounds to object. However, here we have a group of people who publicly claim to believe in horrible doctrines, and I deem them horrible people on the basis of those professions. I wouldn't want to live near people who believe such things, insofar as I can help it. I'm not certain what is the objection here.

 

To recap, Muslims are people who believe that we are going to eternal conscious torment in the same hell where Jesus would be sending us (if he were real). They believe in a pedophilic prophet. They believe in enacting a theocratic state. They believe in banning alcohol and pork within said state. They believe in killing you if you engage in homosexual sex. They believe in restrictive dress codes for men and women, and in enforcing those codes via the power of the state. They believe in using the power of the state to punish people who draw or blaspheme Mohammad (swine urine be upon him). These are things that I can recall without even having to reference the Qu'ran, and I'm not nearly as familiar with that text as I am with the Bible. Is this a religion we should respect, or whose followers we should respect? I find no redeeming traits whatsoever in Islam. Were it not for the personal losses I have suffered from Christianity, I might find this religion the more detestable of the two (though let's not argue between bad and slightly worse).

 

These are not good or wholesome beliefs by any measure that people here can agree to. Nor are these merely intellectual positions; these are things that can affect your life personally. If you enjoy dressing immodestly, having sex with someone of the same sex, or simply having an evening beer, you should be mildly concerned about having Muslim neighbors. And because none of us are Christian conservatives, we are not beholden to defending a religion with teachings similar to that of Islam. If someone holds to beliefs that are bad, does this not make him a bad person? Does that not mean that given the choice of allowing or disallowing him into your home country, you should decline? The second question is a matter of practicality, I admit, but both prudence and the fact that immigration into the United States is not a civil right compel one to ban such people. I might dare call it a Muslim ban.

 

But - one might object - there are plenty of good Muslims. Granted. When I go to India, half of my drivers are Muslims, and they are all friendly and helpful people. I expect that they aren't out to ban alcohol or anything of the sort. Sometimes I even see the same people at a bar. On the other hand, there is a whole host of Episcopal Christians who don't believe in eternal conscious torment in hell for non-Christians. Their existence doesn't stop me from hating Christianity and those who practice it. Personally, I do not know why there are Christians who don't believe in Christianity or Muslims who don't believe in Islam. It seems as absurd as a Republican who believes in large government or a vegan who supports factory farming. I think it is unhelpful (at best) to take up the label of a set of intellectual propositions which don't actually define you, alas in the case of religion people do this for cultural reasons. Show me a Muslim who doesn't believe in any of the tenets of Islam, and I'm happy to say that I don't hate that person. But if you tell me you are a Muslim, then given no other knowledge, I will assume you believe in Islam, and I will hate you for your beliefs. And to those of you who morally object to the teachings of Islam (which I assume is everyone here), I would suggest that you should hate Muslims too. Hatred is the proper feeling towards those with awful beliefs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Bhim said:

@ficino @TheRedneckProfessor regarding hatred of Muslim people as opposed to their religion, you both made points which I seemed to miss earlier. I think this is worthy of some exploration.

 

The idea of "love the sinner, hate the sin" is of course something we all learned from Christianity. Now, I am not so disconnected from logic and reason as to reject a proposition simply because Christianity teaches it. However, I do think that this is a fundamentally untenable position. If someone does something that negatively affects an individual or society, there will be some level of antipathy towards that person. On a related note, I firmly believe that a person's professed beliefs are an excellent grounds on which to judge them. If I made the same statements with regards to black people, Germans, hermaphrodites, etc., I think you would have a legitimate grounds to object. However, here we have a group of people who publicly claim to believe in horrible doctrines, and I deem them horrible people on the basis of those professions. I wouldn't want to live near people who believe such things, insofar as I can help it. I'm not certain what is the objection here.

 

To recap, Muslims are people who believe that we are going to eternal conscious torment in the same hell where Jesus would be sending us (if he were real). They believe in a pedophilic prophet. They believe in enacting a theocratic state. They believe in banning alcohol and pork within said state. They believe in killing you if you engage in homosexual sex. They believe in restrictive dress codes for men and women, and in enforcing those codes via the power of the state. They believe in using the power of the state to punish people who draw or blaspheme Mohammad (swine urine be upon him). These are things that I can recall without even having to reference the Qu'ran, and I'm not nearly as familiar with that text as I am with the Bible. Is this a religion we should respect, or whose followers we should respect? I find no redeeming traits whatsoever in Islam. Were it not for the personal losses I have suffered from Christianity, I might find this religion the more detestable of the two (though let's not argue between bad and slightly worse).

 

These are not good or wholesome beliefs by any measure that people here can agree to. Nor are these merely intellectual positions; these are things that can affect your life personally. If you enjoy dressing immodestly, having sex with someone of the same sex, or simply having an evening beer, you should be mildly concerned about having Muslim neighbors. And because none of us are Christian conservatives, we are not beholden to defending a religion with teachings similar to that of Islam. If someone holds to beliefs that are bad, does this not make him a bad person? Does that not mean that given the choice of allowing or disallowing him into your home country, you should decline? The second question is a matter of practicality, I admit, but both prudence and the fact that immigration into the United States is not a civil right compel one to ban such people. I might dare call it a Muslim ban.

 

But - one might object - there are plenty of good Muslims. Granted. When I go to India, half of my drivers are Muslims, and they are all friendly and helpful people. I expect that they aren't out to ban alcohol or anything of the sort. Sometimes I even see the same people at a bar. On the other hand, there is a whole host of Episcopal Christians who don't believe in eternal conscious torment in hell for non-Christians. Their existence doesn't stop me from hating Christianity and those who practice it. Personally, I do not know why there are Christians who don't believe in Christianity or Muslims who don't believe in Islam. It seems as absurd as a Republican who believes in large government or a vegan who supports factory farming. I think it is unhelpful (at best) to take up the label of a set of intellectual propositions which don't actually define you, alas in the case of religion people do this for cultural reasons. Show me a Muslim who doesn't believe in any of the tenets of Islam, and I'm happy to say that I don't hate that person. But if you tell me you are a Muslim, then given no other knowledge, I will assume you believe in Islam, and I will hate you for your beliefs. And to those of you who morally object to the teachings of Islam (which I assume is everyone here), I would suggest that you should hate Muslims too. Hatred is the proper feeling towards those with awful beliefs.

Suggest? You're treading on dangerous ground here. Who you hate is your own choice but yeah you've definitely gone a big step past that with this post. 

Mods, do we tolerate this kind of thing here? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread is being locked for Moderator review.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Michael Caine in "Gold Member"— 'There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch.'

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.