Christians saying atheism means more

[midniterider]

I agree that going back probably involves an emotion based decision...and maybe they are also tired of their family members giving them shit so they adopt a nominal Christianity to keep people happy. I was watching a video recently where the Christian had a couple pat answers about how people 'could have never really been a Christian' and then now call theirselves an ex.... it was the usual baloney we are familiar with. I personally dont want to claim to know for a fact someone's reason for doing this or that when I really dont. It also seems arrogant to say that once you accept my system of thought, it's so damn good that you'll never go back. 

 

https://youtu.be/QqYgrXupoR4

 

I dont know of too many people who went from Christian to atheist to Christian again...maybe one on this forum. Forget her name. 

 

Statless assertion: Seems like more people are quitting Jesus than starting.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Did any of us ever really believe in Santa Claus?

[Joshpantera]

8 hours ago, midniterider said:

I dont know of too many people who went from Christian to atheist to Christian again...maybe one on this forum. Forget her name. 

 

I remember that. Came back and got a christian tag upon return.

 

And that makes a good example of what I'm talking about. Came here, listened to atheist arguments, biblical minimalism, mythicism, etc., etc. Then disregarded it all for emotional reasons. Didn't show any sign of ever having comprehended the content. Couldn't hold an argument in favor of those returning to belief choices, actually bowed out and refused to try and argue. Became angry at people for trying to debate about it. And didn't care about anything other than an emotional choice to return to christian beliefs. And was hostile about being asked to explain or defend those christian beliefs. 

 

That was a brief run of suspension of positive belief. For a while. Questioning something. Then folding and going right back to it without having proven it correct or having demonstrated to herself or others the truth of christianity. 

 

Other than that we've had the others who suffer bipolar disorders and other mental condition issues which pull them back and fourth. And, every example that I come across is emotional based with no demonstration of hard evidence or powerful facts behind these decisions. I'll continue watching and listening to people who claim to have been atheist and then converted to christianity. But I doubt I'll see any better results than what we've outlined so far. 10 - 15 years into looking for something substantial, I've about given up hope that anyone can do more than what I've been seeing. That's part of the reason why I will debate these guys. I'm testing the waters to see if they can pull something out of their asses that I couldn't see coming. I'd respect them much more if they could manage to do so. But I keep getting the same predictable outcomes over and over. 

[midniterider]

8 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

I remember that. Came back and got a christian tag upon return.

 

And that makes a good example of what I'm talking about. Came here, listened to atheist arguments, biblical minimalism, mythicism, etc., etc. Then disregarded it all for emotional reasons. Didn't show any sign of ever having comprehended the content. Couldn't hold an argument in favor of those returning to belief choices, actually bowed out and refused to try and argue. Became angry at people for trying to debate about it. And didn't care about anything other than an emotional choice to return to christian beliefs. And was hostile about being asked to explain or defend those christian beliefs. 

 

That was a brief run of suspension of positive belief. For a while. Questioning something. Then folding and going right back to it without having proven it correct or having demonstrated to herself or others the truth of christianity. 

 

Other than that we've had the others who suffer bipolar disorders and other mental condition issues which pull them back and fourth. And, every example that I come across is emotional based with no demonstration of hard evidence or powerful facts behind these decisions. I'll continue watching and listening to people who claim to have been atheist and then converted to christianity. But I doubt I'll see any better results than what we've outlined so far. 10 - 15 years into looking for something substantial, I've about given up hope that anyone can do more than what I've been seeing. That's part of the reason why I will debate these guys. I'm testing the waters to see if they can pull something out of their asses that I couldn't see coming. I'd respect them much more if they could manage to do so. But I keep getting the same predictable outcomes over and over. 

 

Thanks for the reply. 

 

So what do you think about some of these well known Christians on the tour circuit who debate atheists. They have to know the atheist intellectual arguments inside and out ( I would think ), yet they are still Christian. 

 

Is their faith a sham? Are they secretly non-believers? Or are they legit believing Christians who just feel that evidence and logic are unimportant? Or something else entirely?

[♦ ficino ♦]

On 1/23/2020 at 1:16 PM, Joshpantera said:

 

 

 

Other than that we've had the others who suffer bipolar disorders and other mental condition issues which pull them back and fourth. 

Has anyone heard from Brother Jeff?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

18 minutes ago, ficino said:

Has anyone heard from Brother Jeff?

Or Deidre? Or Kris?

[Joshpantera]

On 1/23/2020 at 9:24 PM, midniterider said:

 

Thanks for the reply. 

 

So what do you think about some of these well known Christians on the tour circuit who debate atheists. They have to know the atheist intellectual arguments inside and out ( I would think ), yet they are still Christian. 

 

Is their faith a sham? Are they secretly non-believers? Or are they legit believing Christians who just feel that evidence and logic are unimportant? Or something else entirely?

 

They are clearly familiar with atheist arguments. Such as the jesus mythicist arguments, YHWH as a pagan deity originally, Satan as an evolved mythological character absent from Genesis, etc., etc. They clearly know the debate landscape. But they reject the assertions. And, they straw man the atheist arguments, set up false dichotomies, and try what they can to try and demean and / or debase the arguments. But again, that only serves to reveal their lack of understanding the content very well. They only understand that the arguments exist and they don't like them. The rest is apologetic's and special pleading and all else that they keep tossing out over and over again in response. 

 

Again, when pressed, WLC and others always have to resort to, "I have faith," or simply, "I believe." That can't be used for a foundation beyond an emotional foundation. All else rests there. So when Craig tries to argue that science supports the bible, when pressed hard, he has to eventually fold and curl up in a faith and belief blanket. It's just what happens when pressed too far. I've seen him do that a lot. 

 

I wonder how much of it is a sham. But I tend to think that WLC, for instance, is a believer. And that he likes to toy around with trying to use evidence and logic for the purpose of confirmation bias. He's clearly only trying to confirm what his emotional based foundation has already concluded on. He talks about being a non-believer and then converting to christianity. And it's the usual fear of mortality and similar issues. Somewhere in all of that he decided to latch on to christianity. Even though he knows that it has no firmer basis than it does. He wants to believe that it's true regardless. It's all about wishful thinking, desire, longing, and so on. The emotional basis is always transparent and necessarily follows him around from debate to debate. 

 

 

[TEG]

On 1/23/2020 at 6:24 PM, midniterider said:

So what do you think about some of these well known Christians on the tour circuit who debate atheists. They have to know the atheist intellectual arguments inside and out ( I would think ), yet they are still Christian. 

 

Is their faith a sham? Are they secretly non-believers? Or are they legit believing Christians who just feel that evidence and logic are unimportant? Or something else entirely?

 

I can tell you from experience, and I am sure others here can relate, when you are a true believer your beliefs take precedence over reason.  “Jesus is the son of god and our savior,” “the bible is god’s word and therefore 100% true,” “there is a heaven and hell and I am going to one or the other after I die” and such, are adhered to without question; and everything has to be made to fit that worldview, like the procrustean bed.  Hence, pretzel-logic exegesis and “harmonization” of seemingly contradictory bible passages, blind spots at difficult places such as the pagan origins of the old testament god, theology in general, etc.  The thought that “this book does not make sense” is not permitted, any more than a normal parent permitting themselves to think, “I hate my children.”  Rather, it is always, “how do I twist this around to make it fit my beliefs?”  It just happens automatically.  And it can be traumatic to break out of that mold, a kind of culture shock.  I believe that a large percentage of mankind simply cannot do it.

[Joshpantera]

6 hours ago, TEG said:

I believe that a large percentage of mankind simply cannot do it.

 

And of that percentage, many are older citizens which are passing away year after year. Taking these superstitions to the grave. Unable to pass them along with very much success because their kids, grandchildren and great grand children just don't buy in to it. As you span from boomers, to Gen X, to Millennial's and down to Gen Z, the passing along of religious belief down scales. Seen in church attendance and other polling factors. 

 

So I see it like science and scientific theory: 

 

“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” - Max Plank

 

I'd say that newer thinking in general doesn't win by going out and converting old thinkers. It wins because old thinkers eventually die off leaving behind new generations which are familiar with the newer ways of thinking. To paraphrase and adapt it to our religious discussion. 

 

 

[midniterider]

8 hours ago, TEG said:

 

I can tell you from experience, and I am sure others here can relate, when you are a true believer your beliefs take precedence over reason.  “Jesus is the son of god and our savior,” “the bible is god’s word and therefore 100% true,” “there is a heaven and hell and I am going to one or the other after I die” and such, are adhered to without question; and everything has to be made to fit that worldview, like the procrustean bed.  Hence, pretzel-logic exegesis and “harmonization” of seemingly contradictory bible passages, blind spots at difficult places such as the pagan origins of the old testament god, theology in general, etc.  The thought that “this book does not make sense” is not permitted, any more than a normal parent permitting themselves to think, “I hate my children.”  Rather, it is always, “how do I twist this around to make it fit my beliefs?”  It just happens automatically.  And it can be traumatic to break out of that mold, a kind of culture shock.  I believe that a large percentage of mankind simply cannot do it.

 

Right, I agree. I've been a believer in the past and it was standard procedure to ignore logic, evidence, reason, etc. (Unfortunately I found some of the Eastern religion stuff inside the bible which gave me pause to wonder...and question.) My assertion is that Christians 'can' be aware of the intellectual arguments for atheism without caving into them. Just having that information is not enough to make a Christian into an atheist or ex-C, at least. A Christian has to be in the right frame of mind to begin to accept the atheist intellectual arguments put forth. 

 

Yes a large percentage can't do it. I imagine there is also a group that dont want to break out of the mold.

[midniterider]

2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

And of that percentage, many are older citizens which are passing away year after year. Taking these superstitions to the grave. Unable to pass them along with very much success because their kids, grandchildren and great grand children just don't buy in to it. As you span from boomers, to Gen X, to Millennial's and down to Gen Z, the passing along of religious belief down scales. Seen in church attendance and other polling factors. 

 

So I see it like science and scientific theory: 

 

“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” - Max Plank

 

I'd say that newer thinking in general doesn't win by going out and converting old thinkers. It wins because old thinkers eventually die off leaving behind new generations which are familiar with the newer ways of thinking. To paraphrase and adapt it to our religious discussion. 

 

 

 

Plank is right. When people born before 1990 are mostly gone I think it's going to be a much more secular America. The Internet brings knowledge and facts to everyone right in the palm of their hand. Good luck having a Pastor or congregation compete with that a time or two a week when the young mind can read the horror stories about Christianity, get solid answers to Christian apologetic nonsense, and just get information on their smart phone 24/7. 

 

I have a lot of business dealing with college age people. None of them have brought up Jesus to me (anecdotal, yes).  The Nones are on the rise. 

[Joshpantera]

12 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Plank is right. When people born before 1990 are mostly gone I think it's going to be a much more secular America. The Internet brings knowledge and facts to everyone right in the palm of their hand. Good luck having a Pastor or congregation compete with that a time or two a week when the young mind can read the horror stories about Christianity, get solid answers to Christian apologetic nonsense, and just get information on their smart phone 24/7. 

 

I have a lot of business dealing with college age people. None of them have brought up Jesus to me (anecdotal, yes).  The Nones are on the rise. 

 

Plank was on to more than he probably realized. At least in terms of how that general concept spans out from science to religion and any number of things. 

 

So here's a funny story. I was talking to the HVAC instructor at the local college. He was working on my store's a/c after work the other day. I was talking to him about my oldest step son's interest in going the trade school route and enrolling next year.

 

While discussing that with me, he made a few plugs about being christian, god, and his beliefs. I just let it go and didn't engage that direction of discussion any further. He mentioned how he can't read the bible without falling asleep. Then went off into talking about the HVAC school books and how he teaches. He was outlining how in the school books one person will write one chapter, and another personal will write another chapter in the book. And each chapter is based on the personal opinions of the person who wrote each chapter. And how they often 'contradict one another and don't amount to any more than personal opinion.' He was saying that he teaches from the book but then teaches how to be practical and work in the field. 

 

I couldn't resist!!!!!!

 

I told him, well, if you stay awake long enough to read through the whole bible you may find that the HVAC manual and the bible have a lot more in common than you have been aware of. And I laughed. He laughed, but looked like he didn't quite know how to take the jab. He's in his late 60's. 

 

What will be interesting is if he goes and reads his bible now and then suddenly "sees it." 

 

 

[TABA]

6 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

He mentioned how he can't read the bible without falling asleep. Then went off into talking about the HVAC school books and how he teaches. He was outlining how in the school books one person will write one chapter, and another personal will write another chapter in the book. And each chapter is based on the personal opinions of the person who wrote each chapter. And how they often 'contradict one another and don't amount to any more than personal opinion.' He was saying that he teaches from the book but then teaches how to be practical and work in the field. 

 

I couldn't resist!!!!!!

 

I told him, well, if you stay awake long enough to read through the whole bible you may find that the HVAC manual and the bible have a lot more in common than you have been aware of. And I laughed. He laughed, but looked like he didn't quite know how to take the jab. He's in his late 60's. 

 

What will be interesting is if he goes and reads his bible now and then suddenly "sees it." 

That was too good an opportunity to pass up!   But people are good at using one yardstick for their religion and quite a different one for every other aspect of life.