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When is it appropriate to convert Christians to Atheism?

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On 1/25/2020 at 12:58 PM, Myrkhoos said:

I am sorry but your answer denotes a total lack of knowledge in psychology and the psychology of religion/ cults in particular. 

 

What you feel is obvious might also be wrong. Many people fimd it obvious that God exists and would have the exact same answer of well all atheists would agree to theism if they were honest enough. You should study the overwhelming cult / mind control literature done by psychologists and neurologists on how choices can and are influenced. By the way thinking that everything is just your choice is an extremely CHRISTIAN idea, and is really frowned by modern neuroscience. Read and hear robert sapolsky, atheist neuroscientist. It also called fundamental attribution error in social psychology.

 

You seem to think you are a free thinker and invulnerable to group think. You are not. If you are then you are probably a psychopath with neurological problems unable to emotionally connect with others and be influenced by others.

 

Please get down of your high horse and join us mortals with faulty reasoning and biases all around. But maybe you think you are one of the chosen who has acces to absolute truth and all others are weak and/ or stupid not to see it. Well then...who else has simplistic absolute certainty with a dash of self importance? I wonder. 

 

No offense to you as a person, but your line of thinking is demeaning and demonstrably wrong. 

 

Intellectual integrity is not a subjective concept. It's based entirely around facts and occams razor.  For instance, if John claims 1+1 = 3 and Jane claims it is 2, then John and Jane both get in a heated emotional argument where they both accuse the other of ignoring obvious evidence. The difference is that 1+1 in fact is objectively 2. John is psychologically projecting his inability to accept facts onto Jane. Jane has the facts on her side. John is wrong, and Jane is right. Likewise, a literal interpretation of the Bible has been extensively debunked due to its linkage to multiple inconsistencies and logical self contradictions. It 100% legitimately cannot be true in the way that modern fundamentalists claim it to be.

 

Although it seems to me that you have partially misunderstood my post. I am not claiming that some religious people are just "too stupid" to ever deconvert, nor am I denying the impact of their environment. In fact intellect has very little to do with it. 

 

What I am referring to is more or less "willful ignorance".  A person who leaves one cult, but still chooses willful ignorance as a philosophical lifestyle, is in severe danger of falling into another cult-like scenario.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Jedah said:

Likewise, a literal interpretation of the Bible has been extensively debunked due to its linkage to multiple inconsistencies and logical self contradictions. It 100% legitimately cannot be true in the way that modern fundamentalists claim it to be.

 

This was the basis of my debate against LuthAMF, pinned in the Lion's Den. Genesis is demonstrably false with respect to being a literally true religious text. This is the sort of thing that can be firmed up. 

 

And if the situation presents itself, I will discuss it with people if I feel like it's warranted or within reason to do so. If I think they can handle it or are ready to hear it. For the sake of passing along an FYI. What they do with that information is entirely up to them. 

 

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7 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

False. There are numerous addiction centers and addiction interventions that do work. And I already said, if you read my previous post in whole, that I AM NOT  a trained proffesional and would not and do not deal with things outside my competence. It does seem you only read the top of my recent posts. 

 

Anyone interested in Cult interventions read Freedom of mind by Steve Hassan where direct planned interventions makes the person "feel" ready before theor own spontaneous realisations. The man himself has done hu dreds of these has trauned other individuals and there is a plethora of soecialists at ICSA international cultic studies association. Anyone interrsted please read their info and books, subscribe to their magazines. There are literally hundreds of books and interviews and videos. It is very simple to check them up on the net.

 

But I will stop here. Because 1. This thread is not a debate thread and on the topic I have said what I feel at the moment, plus given information reference.

2. I do not have the necessary energy/tools to continue this discussion, anyway.

 

Sorry if I sounded too aggresive.

@Myrkhoos O.K. Let's you and I take a deep breathe. I noticed on another thread that you are a fan of Gabor Mate. You and I have that in common.I  have watched his videos over and over and over. I actually thought about going to Vancouver to see him personally. But you must remember that many people Myrkhoos, would think he is a 'kook' no matter how many certificates he has as a doctor and therapist. Some would say he's brilliant (me) and some would say it's all 'woo' .You and I cannot or will not be able to convince them or influence them if they are not open to what he is saying. If they are set in their minds that he is a nutcase, you and I will have to walk away because they are not open to his theory.

 

You say there are are numerous addiction centers and addiction interventions that do work. And that's true. I help with addicted people all the time but as a volunteer, not a professional. You still must want the change. I have seen people die that didn't want the change. My own boy could be one of them. And yet with all the knowledge and love in my heart and hours of trying to influence him, he is not open. He doesn't want the truth. That is all I am saying. You say I might be doing it wrong? Then please give me your suggestions. And not about him watching videos with Gate because he would just laugh at it. Do you see what I mean and what I am trying to say? I am generally not an argumentative person. I like it when we try to understand each other.

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9 minutes ago, Margee said:

@Myrkhoos O.K. Let's you and I take a deep breathe. I noticed on another thread that you are a fan of Gabor Mate. You and I have that in common.I  have watched his videos over and over and over. I actually thought about going to Vancouver to see him personally. But you must remember that many people Myrkhoos, would think he is a 'kook' no matter how many certificates he has as a doctor and therapist. Some would say he's brilliant (me) and some would say it's all 'woo' .You and I cannot or will not be able to convince them or influence them if they are not open to what he is saying. If they are set in their minds that he is a nutcase, you and I will have to walk away because they are not open to his theory.

 

You say there are are numerous addiction centers and addiction interventions that do work. And that's true. I help with addicted people all the time but as a volunteer, not a professional. You still must want the change. I have seen people die that didn't want the change. My own boy could be one of them. And yet with all the knowledge and love in my heart and hours of trying to influence him, he is not open. He doesn't want the truth. That is all I am saying. You say I might be doing it wrong? Then please give me your suggestions. And not about him watching videos with Gate because he would just laugh at it. Do you see what I mean and what I am trying to say? I am generally not an argumentative person. I like it when we try to understand each other.

Ok. I will not answer this thread anymore. Like I said, I have not the energy for it, nor the conviction that it would be useful. 

 

All the best to you.

 

Stefan

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4 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

Ok. I will not answer this thread anymore. Like I said, I have not the energy for it, nor the conviction that it would be useful. 

 

All the best to you.

 

Stefan

Farewell my friend. I also will not try to influence you any more with my own thoughts about this topic.

(hug)

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4 hours ago, Jedah said:

 

Intellectual integrity is not a subjective concept. It's based entirely around facts and occams razor.  For instance, if John claims 1+1 = 3 and Jane claims it is 2, then John and Jane both get in a heated emotional argument where they both accuse the other of ignoring obvious evidence. The difference is that 1+1 in fact is objectively 2. John is psychologically projecting his inability to accept facts onto Jane. Jane has the facts on her side. John is wrong, and Jane is right. Likewise, a literal interpretation of the Bible has been extensively debunked due to its linkage to multiple inconsistencies and logical self contradictions. It 100% legitimately cannot be true in the way that modern fundamentalists claim it to be.

 

Although it seems to me that you have partially misunderstood my post. I am not claiming that some religious people are just "too stupid" to ever deconvert, nor am I denying the impact of their environment. In fact intellect has very little to do with it. 

 

What I am referring to is more or less "willful ignorance".  A person who leaves one cult, but still chooses willful ignorance as a philosophical lifestyle, is in severe danger of falling into another cult-like scenario.

 

 

Anything dealing with human perception of reality is necessarily subjective. That is what subjective means. Coming from humans. Humans have no way of actually confirming objectivity in the ultimate sense. Why? Because everything requires and observer- a human. What you call objective and most of the time science calls objective is common shared experience as in a common experience. 

 

And anyway this deal about subjective and objective and their relationship fills many libraries of debates. It does not seem wise to be so sure of these things.

 

And talking about debunked subjects and nice illusions, what about the so disproven concept of free will you seem to be using. . You are probably as free as a cloud is to rain or not. Reference auhors - Sam Harris and Robert Sapolsky, modern atheist neuroscientist, Derk Pereboom, modern philosopher. And for fun, a young atheist youtuber, Cosmic Skeptic. By the way, you will find lots in Sapolsky that contradicts your theory of intellectual integrity and how things like sitting in a warm chair influences our reasoning a lot more than we would like to think. I cannot confirm what he says, for sure, but many things seem very interesting. 

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For some reason, I feel this thread in all not just some discussions got a little much for me. And stirred up more than I would have wanted. I will leave it at that.Good vibes to everyone !!! ☺

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10 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

So why do even bother to post/ be on this forum if noone respects your beliefs opinions, then? 

 

Or, as per the site recommeded, you re into psychological bdsm ? 😅

 

I was just playfully poking the evidence-demanding atheists a bit. :) 

 

 

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4 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

I was just playfully poking the evidence-demanding atheists a bit. :) 

 

 

 

How rude - poking me like that. I mean are there any other evidence demanding atheists here? :P :D 

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1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

How rude - poking me like that. I mean are there any other evidence demanding atheists here? :P :D 

 

Not a one. :)

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There's not a lot, but of course there are some of us who are rightfully atheist in terms of god belief but who are wide open to mystical and esoteric subject matter. We are both evidence demanding atheists and exploring pioneers on the fronts of human consciousness and the more speculative aspects of human knowledge and experience. All rolled into one. 

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Last weekend a couple of JW ladies knocked on my door. We ended up in a 30 min conversation about faith. I politely asked a bunch of socratic-style questions, some of which they struggled to answer. They knocked on my door again today, with a bunch of answers/apologetics for my previous questions. Then they invited me out for coffee next week. What should be my next move? Is this an appropriate de-conversion opportunity?

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2 hours ago, LostinParis said:

Last weekend a couple of JW ladies knocked on my door. We ended up in a 30 min conversation about faith. I politely asked a bunch of socratic-style questions, some of which they struggled to answer. They knocked on my door again today, with a bunch of answers/apologetics for my previous questions. Then they invited me out for coffee next week. What should be my next move? Is this an appropriate de-conversion opportunity?

I'd say no. What they're hoping for is to influence you. And you may be hoping to influence them. They're out there actively evangelizing. People don't deconvert unless they are ready to question. 

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2 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I'd say no. What they're hoping for is to influence you. And you may be hoping to influence them. They're out there actively evangelizing. People don't deconvert unless they are ready to question. 


I kinda like the idea of wasting a lot of their time though😈. Letting them think they might have an opportunity when I’m just fucking with them. 

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6 hours ago, TABA said:


I kinda like the idea of wasting a lot of their time though😈. Letting them think they might have an opportunity when I’m just fucking with them. 

I hear ya. I've thought of doing it myself just for fun. 

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One different way to look at it is not the deconversion of an individual but adding to the slow erosion of religion as a whole. If someone is religious then deconversion can be equally liberating (no hell, no guilt trips) or painful (no salvation, no heaven), but looking past that individual, their children will grow up without religion. Those children will not suffer their world view dramatically changing or suffer the fear of eternal damnation for them or their friends and family.

You don't need to deconvert if if are never converted in the first place. 

 

My personal bias is that I'm an anti-theist, in that I see religion as a net harm to humanity. I subjectively believe the world would be better without any supernatural ideas. I therefore wouldn't try to deconvert anyone, but like the idea of media being available for those who want. Every book, YouTube video or forum comment has the ability to reach thousands of people and to continue doing so for years to come. Its the difference between saying a witty line to a person or putting that same remark on a billboard. 

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On 2/1/2020 at 3:35 AM, LostinParis said:

Last weekend a couple of JW ladies knocked on my door. We ended up in a 30 min conversation about faith. I politely asked a bunch of socratic-style questions, some of which they struggled to answer. They knocked on my door again today, with a bunch of answers/apologetics for my previous questions. Then they invited me out for coffee next week. What should be my next move? Is this an appropriate de-conversion opportunity?

  

If you're good at debate, why not go? At the least it would be an adventure into their minds.

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2 hours ago, older said:

If you're good at debate, why not go? At the least it would be an adventure into their minds.

I’m not confident to debate them, their knowledge of the bible is way better than mine. However I may give Street Epistemology a try, eg. How did they arrive at their beliefs and how do they know they are true?

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10 hours ago, LostinParis said:

I’m not confident to debate them, their knowledge of the bible is way better than mine. However I may give Street Epistemology a try, eg. How did they arrive at their beliefs and how do they know they are true?

  

Before you go, grab a copy of A Manual for Creating Athesits by Peter Boghosian. It's a short book that might give you some ideas.

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3 hours ago, older said:

 

Before you go, grab a copy of A Manual for Creating Athesits by Peter Boghosian. It's a short book that might give you some ideas.

I listened to the audio book a few weeks ago. The app is fun too 😊

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On 1/30/2020 at 5:06 PM, Myrkhoos said:

 

Anyone interested in Cult interventions read Freedom of mind by Steve Hassan


I just read Steve Hassan and had the sudden realisation that I escaped from a high-control group/borderline cult. The christian orthodox church I belonged to ticks most of the boxes for Steve Hassan’s BITE model. No wonder my mind is a mess.

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