Secular spirituality via psychedelics

[Aqualung]

Deleted.

[Joshpantera]

On 2/1/2020 at 3:14 PM, AyahuascaPhoenix said:

That's when I decided to try Ayahuasca and IT WORKED!

I've done a complete 180 in my life thanks to Aya, And I no longer suffer from those symptoms.

So if I seem too overzealous about it that's why, It saved my life, And is now my passion.

 

I like to sum it up this way.

 

I trusted in science, It failed.

I trusted in religion, It failed.

I turned to something completley outside the norm, And it suceeded!

 

So there you have it.

 

Sorry for the long rant.

 

Well, hey, it's unorthodox but it worked. That's good news! 

 

Praise the natural universe!!!

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Here's a 5 minute video of Mike Tyson talking about his transformation after having DMT (I think he mean 5meo-DMT).

 

DMT is generally a wild-ass trip of encountering "deities" and seeing this reality as a sort of machine in which we play a part.

 

5meo-DMT (the chemical secreted by the Senoran desert toad, also available synthetically to protect the toads) is more like dying, so when he talks about death of ego, it is as though one's body is gone, you may see fractal lights, geometric images, hear or become ethereal music, feel complete bliss, and gain a completely non-body oriented perspective on your self and everything. It hits immediately and lasts about 20 minutes, and then you come back. I've seen people yell and scream as though being birthed, or intonate a sound, some people wretch a bit, others have no visible manifestations or sounds. You are still able to talk or drink water, but the more you can let go of the body and just be, the more amazing it is.

The setting and emotional preparation is important, having an experienced person there to watch over you is essential, not fighting it or trying to make sense of it at the time is the best way to experience it, just ride the wave, be the wave, let go of everything. Most people revisit the experience over the next week in one way or another. Mine were mostly around bedtime, geometric patterns, bliss, no worries, feeling like I was floating in space (but not nearly as powerfully). 

 

I still go to work, play on the Internet, eat and fart, but it gives a perspective change that for many people is life changing for the better. 

 

Most definitely not a recreational drug, or addictive. I do want to go there again sometime. It was wonderful. 

 

Mike Tyson talking about his death of ego

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Early on I was very skeptic about the use of substances, but the more I think about the use of psychedelics, the more I can see how it may work very well in controlled situations for some people.   I'm glad some of you have found it's benefits.

[Aqualung]

On 3/21/2020 at 11:12 PM, Weezer said:

Early on I was very skeptic about the use of substances, but the more I think about the use of psychedelics, the more I can see how it may work very well in controlled situations for some people.   I'm glad some of you have found it's benefits.

That's wonderful that you were able to keep an open mind about it Weezer, I never thought much of pyschedelics or drugs in general either untill I learned of their true potential and experienced it firsthand.

 

There is still alot of stigma hanging around from the 60's and the war on drugs, But if more research is done and more results are published I think that will fade away fairly quickly, It's already begun.

 

The proper setting is certainly very important, I've done psychs both by myself and with trained professionals and the difference is night and day.

 

Also important is the intention a person sets for themself before partaking, If you just want to have fun and trip out then it's only a drug, But if you approach it with the intention of deep psychological healing and self discovery then it becomes a profound and powerful medicine.

 

 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Thanks for posting the vid! I did a lot of fast forwarding to about 42 minutes in where they begin talking about the link between psychedelics and religion. The previous seemed to be building the history of religion/astro-zodiac/and the unwillingness to see myths as archetypal stories in the history of mystery cults instead of fact (Dead Sea Scroll translators). The drumming in the background got really annoying after a while. 

 

It is a fascinating look at the symbology of religions and the frequent appearance of mushrooms in the art, though never directly mentioned in scripture. Something I didn't see in my scanning of the video was the pine cone symbol, which rests atop the staff of the pope. This is said to be the shape of the pineal gland (PINEal) where some think the 3rd eye is located. 

 

What if gnostic Christianity was really the story, and the wrong side won? Great idea. 

[Joshpantera]

12 minutes ago, Fuego said:

Thanks for posting the vid! I did a lot of fast forwarding to about 42 minutes in where they begin talking about the link between psychedelics and religion. The previous seemed to be building the history of religion/astro-zodiac/and the unwillingness to see myths as archetypal stories in the history of mystery cults instead of fact (Dead Sea Scroll translators). The drumming in the background got really annoying after a while. 

 

It is a fascinating look at the symbology of religions and the frequent appearance of mushrooms in the art, though never directly mentioned in scripture. Something I didn't see in my scanning of the video was the pine cone symbol, which rests atop the staff of the pope. This is said to be the shape of the pineal gland (PINEal) where some think the 3rd eye is located. 

 

What if gnostic Christianity was really the story, and the wrong side won? Great idea. 

 

Sorry, I should have noted that the relevant parts are middle to end of the film. 

 

I have seen the pineal gland reference somewhere before. Taken altogether, it's very interesting how many things from ancient religion have been forgotten and lost to time. But these traces remain that tell a pretty obvious tale. Including the astrotheology. Through the eyes of ancient people and religious initiates these myths were layered with multiple referencing. I showed my wife the relevant parts and she was interested in how obvious the Santa and Christmas stuff has always been referring the shrooms. People just over look it. 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

This vid is one of the more balanced I've seen on psychedelics and the "God" experience. Both of these guys are well experienced in psychedelics, particularly in 5meo-DMT. Both were ardent atheists and had experiences that made them look at even those conclusions or beliefs and put them into perspective. And that seems to be one of the primary foundational concepts of psychedelics is that they give a perspective change on self, perceived reality, realizing that we do perceive reality and not actually see reality for what it is (our senses are limited, dogs and shrimps experience the world differently), how we relate to others (and are there really others?). Both agree that bringing the perspective change of the experiences back into our daily lives is the point of having the experiences. The goal isn't the high or an escape, but to create a healthy sense of self and relating to others and the world. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3XTZ1IynBI

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Something I haven't really talked about yet, or experienced yet, is when psychedelics bring up trauma that has to be faced. It can be actual things that you have lived through, ways you've treated people or they have treated you, or sometimes it is facing seriously deep horror that others have faced. I've been watching videos by those I respect because they are quite honest about the times when they went on a psychedelic journey with the best intentions and preparation only to face into an abyss of depression and terror that they didn't know existed. They are really clear that these experiences are part of the overall "spiritual" nature of man, and that is why some religions have dark gods and dark goddesses (examples Kali, Sekhmet, Lillith, Palden Lhamo). Westerners tend to glibly talk about looking into the abyss, but sometimes the enormity of the abyss reduces us to a whimpering screaming child. It is part of the balance of experience, and I've experienced some amazingly wonderful spiritual things. Integrating the dark experiences takes time and can seem overwhelming while you are in it. It is good to have others who are familiar with it all to sit with you during any session, just in case things go in a direction you can't handle. They also can help you to start processing the experiences and to regain balance. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBan7bn_aD0

[◊ Weezer ◊]

8 hours ago, Fuego said:

 I've been watching videos by those I respect because they are quite honest about the times when they went on a psychedelic journey with the best intentions and preparation only to face into an abyss of depression and terror that they didn't know existed. They are really clear that these experiences are part of the overall "spiritual" nature of man, and that is why some religions have dark gods and dark goddesses (examples Kali, Sekhmet, Lillith, Palden Lhamo). Westerners tend to glibly talk about looking into the abyss, but sometimes the enormity of the abyss reduces us to a whimpering screaming child. 

 

Let me attempt to give a "scientific" explanation.  I wouldn't call these experiences part of the spiritual nature of man.  I see it as more of a complex syndrome that can begin in childhood. There are cases where children experience horrendous abuse, or neglect, situations they at least perceived to be horrendous , situations so bad that they block them from memory.  But the anxiety and fear can get locked in, and they may develop unhealthy coping mechanisms and irrational fears that interfere with life, in many cases because their parents/care givers are lacking in parental skills.  So they grow up not having good coping skills.

 

In later life things can trigger these repressed fears/emotions, resulting in them not understanding why they feel the way they do, and even why they  fainted in certain situations.  And in certain situations like in hypnosis, or a psychedelic journey, the emotions, and the memories can come rushing out unexpectly, with the same force as they went in when a child.  I have seen grown people shake and cry uncontrollably when reliving these experiences.  And yes, they need support to go through this, and gradually leave the fear behind.  And they may need help in developing new coping skills.

 

A really sad part of this for me has been seeing  parents/care givers strongly denying they did what they did, including my own parents, who were basically good people, but "lost it" a couple of times in our childhood.  But it is fairly common for child abusers to deny what they did.  Sometimes I have thought they were lying, and other times I believe they honestly blocked it from their own memory, which is what I think my father did.

 

I don't went to detract from the good that can come from the psychedelic journeys, but wanted to give another perspective on the "spiritual" view.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

It is interesting to see how the mind works, both storing and blocking information. I had a memory of my uncle molesting me, and told my dad some years back before he died. He asked why didn't I tell him. I said I didn't know. Then a few years ago I recalled the whole thing and actually told the whole family at the dinner table. He talked his way out of it and they all thought I was dreaming or something. My young cousins asked me if it really happened and I said yes. 

 

From my perspective, all of these things are spiritual. They all involve decisions we make to do good or bad to other people, and whether a mature person will still choose to violate another even when he knows the harm it causes. Then the desire to cover up, even by my parents who didn't want to "look bad" to the others. That was a common theme in my childhood, especially with mom. Appearance to others was paramount. To me, reaching a place in maturing when I choose to do good, particularly when motivated by desire to do otherwise is a very spiritual decision. There was a Christian philosopher that held this was the highest form of spirituality, but I don't recall who it was now. And then the fictional wizard Dumbledore said "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."

 

I think that our fears are brought up from the depths so that we can face them, feel them, and still stand after facing them. We have to process the experiences, not as in some New Age ways to invent a "reason" for the experiences, but to choose what we will do with them. I've been recalling repeatedly the bullying I experienced in school. While not as traumatic as violent parents, it was a daily fear for a kid who was already fearful and shy. In the processing I've done, I realized that they did it because they see life as a competition that they win by making others lose. They were sports addicts for the same reason. The sneering delight they had in needling me is something that I don't want to emulate in life ever, but I do want to understand better how to frustrate their delight so they don't feel like they are winning. This is part of becoming who I want to be. One of them actually saw me leaving Costco a couple of years ago and ran his cart into me a few times until I turned around and said "What the hell is your problem?" "Go faster..." came the sneering reply. It was a Twilight Zone moment emotionally and I literally could not fathom a grown man doing this. Of course it instantly got under my skin, which was exactly his intent. But it also tells me a lot about him, that he still considers this to be fun. 

 

For the past decade I had a coworker that was of the same nature, though he could only resort to verbal barbs. He would needle me and then cackle to himself. I'd never seen a man cackle before, and it was creepy as hell like he was lost in his own little world of delight. I turned him into HR 3 times and he finally retired. 

 

I guess all that was to say that psychedelics give a perspective change, uncover wonderful things and sometimes nasty things that we'd be better off facing and dealing with than keeping repressed. That seems like a spiritual tool, or can be when received mindfully. 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, Fuego said:

 

 That seems like a spiritual tool, or can be when received mindfully. 

 

How ever you define it, it seems like a valuable tool.  I saw an article a few days ago where the "professionals" are giving psychedelics a closer look.

 

Being the smallest boy in my class almost all the way from 1st to 12th grade, and not good at sports,  I also got a lot of bullying. It "ain't no fun"!  And at my 20 year high school reunion a  star football player repeated the squeezing of the back of my neck in front of a group of people, which was a repeat of several guys favorite way to humiliate me in school.  It was all I could do to stand there and act like it didn't hurt, when what I wanted to do was kick him in the balls.  But several people gave him a dirty look.   I felt a little guilty, but part of me felt like I had won when he died a few years later.  As a matter of fact, all the jocks that gave me a lot of grief in school are dead now. (What ever significance that is)??  

 

Sexual abuse is almost always strongly denied and covered up by family.  And the church.  I saw it professionally, and in my own family.  And it is often blocked out of memory by the child, especially if very young. And they often grow up with depression, anxiety, and poor self esteem.  It is great that you told the family.  It probably happened to others in the family, and your telling about it may have helped someone else.  It is one of those highly secret things that happens, and can get passed down if someone doesn't break the cycle.  Some of the most severely depressed men I saw through the years was from being sexually abused by priests, especially if the kids told, and were not believed.

 

I appreciate your updates on psychedelics. 

[Aqualung]

Another psychedelic that shows alot of promise is Ibogaine. It has shown to be very effective at treating addiction, Especially opioid addiction. So it is essentially an anti drug drug.

 

https://www.healio.com/news/primary-care/20191205/ibogaine-treatment-for-opioid-use-disorder-what-you-need-to-know

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Thanks, I hadn't heard of that one before. Another (currently not prohibited) is Amanita muscaria, for getting off of benzodiazepine (Xanax). Very different than other mushrooms, and has to be processed correctly before consumption or has bad side effects. Sounds like the bark in the above link may need to be processed in some way to reduce the risks of heart attack. Amanita muscaria is often vilified as deadly, but is not. It is related to a couple of truly deadly mushrooms (death cap and destroying angel), but doesn't carry the same toxins. YouTube channel "Amanita Dreamer" covers a lot about this mushroom, but is being censored a lot recently so she's moving to Odysee. 

 

Amanita muscaria and ameripantha have also been used for a long time as muscle pain treatment topically by immersion of the dried caps in olive oil for a couple of months. The science on that is still not in, as the actives that are known are water soluble rather than fat soluble. 

 

[Aqualung]

Ah yes i've been thinking of trying the Aminitas myself. They are fully legal in every state except Louisiana.

 

There's quite alot of history and folklore behind them, It's even speculated that they might be the origins of Santa Clause.

 

 

[Joshpantera]

I was just explaining the above to a guy at work the other day. He couldn't believe it. I told him to look it up - all kinds of literature on the issue...

[♦ Fuego ♦]

A 1.5 hour video of a historian of psychedelics revisiting and debunking the claim that Christmas is related to the Amanita muscaria mushroom. Rather than trying to make it fit, he looks for any actual evidence that this mushroom played any part in the Santa Claus outfit, Christian art, and Christmas. 

 

Let me know what you think. The sound quality isn't great, but he does read and understand old Latin texts and seems to have a really good grasp on rules of evidence for history.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSDIUNDltxc

[tiredofwork]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcnTU5eO0rQ

 

For whatever reason, the post made me think of this video. I can personally attest to this one - the more stressful and fast paced work gets, the less I need caffeine and the more I need something to lose the anxiety. 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Here is a website dedicated to the Amanita muscaria (and ameripantha/pantherina)

https://www.amanitadreamer.net/

 

She was on YouTube, but they seem to be convinced that she is advocating something harmful. There is a lot of misinformation about this mushroom (and some plain-white relatives of it that really are deadly), and she delves into the science as well as the woo side. She also has at least one interview with a company that is going to market a tincture of it after it passes approval by the FDA. 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

I dont know about mushrooms, peyote, or acid. But Marijuana seems to put me in a very eye opening frame of mind at times. More especially when I'm alone and am just able to think during the euphoric state. 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

That's very much the "teaching" effect underlying the use of these things. Rather than just the ride itself is what we do with the insights when we are back in normality. One older guy I follow on youtube said that in the last few months (due to his use of DMT) his perspective on his wife and life in general has been transformed into one of great appreciation and recognition of the tremendous love he's been given rather than seeing others as a general annoyance and treating them as such. Another youtube guy who is about as non-woo as they come is always looking for the practical side after the ride (which can sometimes bring up emotionally hard shit we are avoiding), saying it sometimes turns the experience into the effect of years of therapy if we are open to being changed. 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

@Moxieflux66 asked me to post this reply to her:

 

Some folks gravitate towards the high of mushrooms (or other psychedelics) as an end in itself, an escape of sorts. Others like myself have used them just to gain a different perspective on everything. Instead of following a narrative handed to me by others, the experience offers a sense of connectedness with all of nature here and throughout the cosmos, water evaporating, becoming rain, falling on the soil, microbes, worms, bugs, birds, animals, other humans, relatives, becoming each relative, drifting up to the gods, becoming the gods, sensing offworld life, and in all of it a sense of belonging.

 

On the other hand, nature doesn't care if I slip and crack my head on a rock and die alone in a forest. It is entirely indifferent to human suffering, often causing it through infection, parasites, animal attacks, other human attacks and abuse, earthquakes, etc. For all of this, the perspective change sees it as part of the cycles of life and death. I'll be eaten, digested, pooped, eaten again, turned into plant nutrients, eaten again, pooped again, eaten by mushrooms which are then eaten by another human. It's hilarious in a way, and for me just sensing the cycles is what is meaningful. 

 

Church for me rarely brought a high. But it did bring a strong social connection that was otherwise missing. Other people who had a shared drive to become good, who thought about compassion and what matters most in life. Church led me into contact with other branches of the faith that sought the literal presence of God, and eventually encountering experiences for which I had no explanation but God validating that approach.  Now in retrospect, I still have no good explanation for the experiences, but I sense it has something to do with people together putting out a vibe that is in unison, together as one with one purpose. I don't think that vibe is present in fundamentalist or political churches, because they are too caught up in rules and anger rather than transformation of self. 

 

It has been a couple of years since I journeyed on mushrooms or another other substances. They pulled back the lid on my life and let me experience openly a lot of the things that had been controlling me subconsciously (fear, anxiety, anticipating conflict), and that has taken a while to process (and I'm not done yet). I do use another mushroom now to mitigate the symptoms of anxiety and allow me to work and sing. Amanita muscaria is the primary one that I use now, not for tripping but just to let me live a normal life. It essentially tells the fight-or-flight part of the mind "Shhh, all is well". So just achieving normality has been my goal for a few years. I may seek out my medicine woman again for more journey experiences, but for now I'm still processing what they showed me before. 

 

I'm happy to chat about these things, so let me know if you have questions. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

20 hours ago, Fuego said:

 

I'm happy to chat about these things, so let me know if you have questions. 

 

There are some great insights in your post.  and the previous ones above.

 

It occured to me as I read this last post, that perhaps there is something in those substances that, when used properly, help your brain break through the immense conditioning from the past, and help you think more rationally.  Some people seem to be born with more of that ability.   And in mental health situations, some commericial medications promote more clear thinking.  HA!  and some don't.  There was one antidepressant I took briefly years ago that made a zombie out of me.  But it helped some people think more clearly.  The brain is an amazingly complex and complicated organ.

[pantheory]

Maybe for some people this may be a help. But for me I always need a totally logical mind. A few beers can help me relax from time to time, but for  rooms and weed I need a babysitter and usually regret the experience.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I understand that. I have always disliked being tipsy or drunk. I prefer to have my wits about me.

The full-on journeys have always been an on-purpose thing, and any microdosing is for staying at normal. Anxiety had me barely able to work, going home and staring at my office floor while I played videos on YouTube. I thought I was losing my mind. Then panic attacks came out of nowhere, like someone stomped on the accelerator of my brain. It was an awful period. So for me, I was well out of balance, and the Amanita muscaria brought me back to normality most of the time.