Guest dozer Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 if i was disrespectful to you guys , let me know. I dont want to cause bad vibes. but on this topic it is so hard to avoid. One thing i will say, everyone is entitled to their view. Even if it seems crazy to me to choose atheism, I respect the freedom to make a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted January 30, 2020 Moderator Share Posted January 30, 2020 23 minutes ago, dozer said: im in a hurry. just scanned some answers. some of them kind of ridiculing which is disappointing tbh. I scanned them too - I didn't see anybody ridiculing you. Can you point out which posts seem to be ridiculing? Seems to be a fairly warm, welcoming and standard conversation to me. You wanted to know some things about us, or at least seemed to, and people responded. Clearly we are going to disagree with much of what you say, but that's not a personal attack. "But you wont be able to prove Christians wrong either. " This is to do with where the burden of proof lies. It doesn't matter if I can't prove you wrong. The claim is made by Christians, it's up to them to support the claim. Lets use an example to demonstrate why this is. We'll go back to my dragons just cause I like them. Say I claim there is an invisible dragon in my backyard. You say well where's the proof? I say well you have to have faith and just believe it's there. You say "I don't believe you because you haven't presented evidence" I then say "But you can't prove me wrong." Do you see how this reasoning can lead to a ridiculous position where me being the one making them claim is telling you that you can't prove me wrong despite the fact I haven't presented any evidence? Now apply that conversation to what you just said and you might realise why your line bolded above is just wrong. And it doesn't apply to just a God claim - it applies to any claim. It's not on someone to prove you wrong, it's on the person making the claim to present evidence to prove its right. (PS we are using the word proof here which I really dislike as it has particular meaning in science and mathematics, but for this colloquial conversation its fine. As long as you realise by proof I mean preponderance of evidence that supports the claim) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted January 30, 2020 Moderator Share Posted January 30, 2020 1 minute ago, dozer said: if i was disrespectful to you guys , let me know. I dont want to cause bad vibes. but on this topic it is so hard to avoid. One thing i will say, everyone is entitled to their view. Even if it seems crazy to me to choose atheism, I respect the freedom to make a choice. You're all good bud. Keep posting. Nothing I've seen even rates on the radar of disrespectful or hurtful. We have pretty high tolerance for heated conversations here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 sorry the whole dragon analogy is a turn off. it might be to other Christians too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 Evidence based thinking is limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 Tolkien knew you need imagination to be a Christian. You need to step outside the science paradigm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 1 hour ago, midniterider said: If you assert that God exists you will be asked to show evidence. as I said I didn't come here to convince anyone to go back to Christianity. The word 'evidence" is a giveaway. it means you are a science based thinker. which might be an obstacle to belief. The sun shines through my window. that's evidence enough for me but I could go on of course to all other created things. All I can do is express why I still believe. Whether you need further evidence, is , not wishing to sound rude, your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 2 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said: I think you 'win' if you have a happy life and do your best to live honestly by your values. As far as nothing to look forward to - did you look forward to your birth for the billions of years you didn't exist? No. So will it be after you die. It's jut religion has told us that there is something to look forward to, and when we think that isn't the case it upsets us. But why? You didn't care about the billions of years you didn't exist before you were born, why care about the billions after you die? Sad for all the "losers' then. I don't quite get the rest of your questions. maybe we are on different planets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted January 30, 2020 Moderator Share Posted January 30, 2020 Ok I'm going to try and run you through some thought experiments here. Yes I'm going to use the dragon again to explain things, but as I mention below its not the particulars, it's the concepts and thoughts I'm trying to get across. 11 minutes ago, dozer said: sorry the whole dragon analogy is a turn off. it might be to other Christians too. Why is this? It seems a very simple way of explaining the concept. Is there any particular aspect that turns you off? For example if I used unicorns or fairies (Which I assume we both don't believe exists) would that turn you off? It's not the 'dragon' that's important. It's the concept. Perhaps you should consider that you understand what is being said, it makes sense, and maybe that makes you uncomfortable? I've never had a Christian be turned off by the dragon or unicorn analogy. I have some say it's stupid... then proceed to fail to demonstrate how it's different to the god analogy. 11 minutes ago, dozer said: Evidence based thinking is limited. Why is that. You use it every day for everything you do in your life... except when it comes to the question of God. Again, I bring you back to our dragon, (who is now feeling unloved because she turns you off. ) When I say there is a dragon in my backyard you don't believe me do you? Why not? Please explain why you don't believe me, and I really want you to think hard about this, and maybe apply it to other things I might say like "There is a dog in my backyard" and think if there is a difference between the two claims. 9 minutes ago, dozer said: Tolkien knew you need imagination to be a Christian. You need to step outside the science paradigm. I can apply imagination to anything. However I'm concerned about what is true, not what makes me feel good. So far the scientific method with all its flaws has proven the best way for determining as close as possible what is true about our reality. What is your alternative? How does it work, and how do we find out what is true between two competing claims? Lots of questions and things for you to think about sorry. These are things I had to grapple with during my deconversion. Take your time. No rush, no pressure. I'm just wanting you to think about how we know what we claim to know (Or believe) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted January 30, 2020 Moderator Share Posted January 30, 2020 1 minute ago, dozer said: Sad for all the "losers' then. Yes, well life can suck. I mean those children starving in Africa, or the person who dies of cancer, or all the people and animals that died in Noah's flood can't have felt like winners can they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 4 hours ago, TABA said: Hi dozer, and welcome to our community! This is a good place for somebody who wants to learn and keep an open mind. I'm an ex-Catholic, but also an ex-fundamentalist Christian! Was raised Catholic, started to lapse in my 20s but through some good friends developed an interest in the Bible and ended up being baptized (by full immersion this time) into the Church of Christ. At that point I kinda turned off my critical thinking when it came to religion and spent the next 20 years on auto-pilot, in terms of belief. But I always had some doubts and around the age of 50 I finally faced them, did a lot of reading and thinking, and deconverted just within the past 5 years. I feel like my beliefs (or lack of belief in this case) finally match who I am as a person. It feels good. Interestingly, I attend Mass again regularly now, but as a non-believer: my wife, who was also raised Catholic, wanted to go back and I find it much more tolerable than a fundy church. Maybe in a sense I'm still culturally Catholic: I like the feeling of mysticism that the Catholic church has and which others lack. I like the candles, the stained-glass, the organ, the incense. But I'm very much an agnostic atheist! Looking forward to hearing more from you! I think my nature is to have doubt plus faith. I am actually happy where I am now. it is healthy to question but is also healthy to have faith. I missed mass last week but I will go next week. I don't think God is a legalist. hes not out to punish. I like the agnostic position. it is honest. because none of us know for sure. just I choose to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: For example if I used unicorns or fairies (Which I assume we both don't believe exists) would that turn you off? I am sure others on here appreciate your droll sense of humour but Im not a fan of it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 5 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: Why is that. You use it every day for everything you do in your life... except when it comes to the question of God. Commonsense and evidence are useful in our day to day life. But we need to work on a different plane ( no plane jokes please) for our spiritual lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 9 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: it makes sense, and maybe that makes you uncomfortable? It makes me uncomfortable because it just seems so unholy and disrespectful to God. People who don't understand holiness don't understand God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 This might be my only thread on here. Is that too claustrophobic? But on the topic of "losers' and God. Look at AA. People's get out of control and end up in a place like Alcoholics Anonymous. they need to surrender, who are they surrendering to? I would classify myself a loser. Failed career especially. I need God. because ive failed a lot in life. There is no one else to turn to. Who/what do ex Christians turn to when their life turns upside down? That's scary in my book. I have to go to work later today. A physical job. Ive got really bad sciatica which no one seems to be able to cure. I cant afford to miss work as I am casual. we will have to work overtime as well. I can barely stand up after an hour. I will have to hide that from the boss and coworkers somehow. I'm praying to God for help to get me through this. My wife has cancer as well which is getting more aggressive recently. Im not trying to attract pity here. Just showing a normal person going through their life. But when the chips are down, who can you turn to? Im turning to God. Because commonsense and 'evidence" based thinking don't cure everything. Don't address every problem in your life. In the end, we need prayer in my opinion that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 31, 2020 Super Moderator Share Posted January 31, 2020 18 minutes ago, dozer said: The word 'evidence" is a giveaway. it means you are a science based thinker. which might be an obstacle to belief. Accepting demonstrable reality is not a fault. "Evidence" is not a dirty word. Fantastic claims about invisible realms, magic spells, angels, demons, fairies and deities require evidence if they are to be entertained by reasonable people. Clearly, then, critical thinking and a scientific, fact based understanding of the natural world is indeed an obstacle to believing the outrageous and unsupported claim. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 31, 2020 Super Moderator Share Posted January 31, 2020 15 minutes ago, dozer said: People who don't understand holiness don't understand God. But YOU do understand that concept. This you say to former believers who served as pastors, teachers, missionaries and devout Christians for years, sometimes decades? You got balls. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 In a sense losing your faith is losing that awe and holiness. Thanks for reminding me. I need to reboot mine..with help of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted January 31, 2020 Moderator Share Posted January 31, 2020 22 minutes ago, dozer said: It makes me uncomfortable because it just seems so unholy and disrespectful to God. People who don't understand holiness don't understand God. Except I haven t been unholy or disrespectful in the slightest have I? I'm using an example to explain a concept. That's not being unholy that's just using my mind. So I take it you understand holiness and therefore God? Please explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 34 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: Lots of questions and things for you to think about sorry. Im already on to the way you think and I'm losing interest already. (borderline rude sorry) Got any mystic moderators here. who can think outside the box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 "All I can do is express why I still believe. Whether you need further evidence, is , not wishing to sound rude, your problem." I was mostly just saying this is the number one issue you will bump up against on this forum. How you respond or dont respond is your choice. Most of the conversations we have with other Christians dont get past this point of contention. The hard core Christian apologists are presuppositionalists. They start with 100% confidence that God does exist, but we start off assuming he does not. Then the swords clash. You don't have to debate anything or anyone on this site. But if you speak of Jesus as if he's real, I'm sure someone will want to debate you ... because this is an Ex-Christian site. ...... "But you won't be able to prove Christians wrong either" Nor the Jews, nor the Scientologists, nor the Muslims, nor Pastafarians... ..... "Evidence based thinking is limited." True. And also false, imo. If I choose evidence instead of the bible, then some of the 'sins', restrictions, requirements, and laws that pertain to Christians will no longer limit me. I can have dirty little thoughts without fear or guilt or shame. I am released from those limitations. If I choose science as my new religious leader then I am limiting myself to parameters of physical evidence. I choose to believe somewhere in the middle (perhaps deism or pantheism, not Christianity) then I can have it all. There is certainly nothing wrong with being a Christian...unless it is causing someone an emotional problem. Which is why I quit. Lots of people have a mindset that allows them to accept and believe and be fulfilled with Christianity. Others find they cannot accept Christianity because it is illogical and absurd. Others like me have issues with authority...and supreme beings that make up silly rules. "The word 'evidence" is a giveaway. it means you are a science based thinker. which might be an obstacle to belief." Being a member of this website is an obstacle to belief. ....... Should we start a thread in the Lion's Den for Dozer? Maybe I should not sully his introduction thread with my drivel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 9 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: So I take it you understand holiness and therefore God? Please explain. Ever heard of Pauline Hanson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 minute ago, midniterider said: There is certainly nothing wrong with being a Christian...unless it is causing someone an emotional problem. Which is why I quit. I was going to ask that question. Are you ex Christians happy? Don't you miss having faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dozer Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Just by the way, my brother became Pentecostal. He is basically a fundamentalist who thinks we are all going to hell unless we get born again. He has embraced all the fundamentalist thinking. I might like to think my version of Christianity is superior to his. because I am less rigid. But he is far more zealous than me. Being humble is the challenge for us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeeker0 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 49 minutes ago, dozer said: . I don't think God is a legalist. hes not out to punish. Um dude, have you read your Bible? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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