A Christian with a question/concern

[midniterider]

2 minutes ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

Let me put it another way, if you felt drunk or high without reason, would you wonder why?  Would you be worried someone spiked your drink or you were having a medical condition and needed a doctor?  Or would you shrug it off as nothing.  Personally, I'd pay attention.  As for the Holy Spirit feeling while you read, I've had a simular experience.  It wasn't every time I read the bible but it was a few times expecially after a short simple prayer.

 

Maybe God could be a little more forthcoming. Speak out loud in a strong voice to me. Actually to a large group. In person and on tv as well. Otherwise there's not much reason to change my mind. Why do YOU have to do God's dirty work? If he wants a relationship he can come to me himself. 

 

2 minutes ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

 

What you're talking about is conclusions, not evidance.  The more information and data you have the more likely your conclusions hold some weight behind them

 

How much have you researched in favor of the existence of God?

How much have you researched against the existence of God?

 

[midniterider]

Is a God Moment mentioned in the bible? 

[older]

10 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

If so what made you want to leave?

   

My career related to photojournalism. I have seen photographs that the public will never see. Photographs that validate the Dan Barker quote in Truthseeker0's post above. Photographs of children starving to death. Children dying slow, painful deaths from horrible diseases. Children born with horrific deformities that exceed the most demented of human imaginations, and destined for a life of pain and suffering. Photographs of human beings barely surviving in conditions that are not fit for insects. This tangible, verifiable evidence, which I observed over a period of 40 years, satisfies me that the Christian god cannot exist as he is defined. No loving, omnipotent god would allow these things to happen. If there is a god, it cannot be loving, omniscient, or omnipotent, and therefore is not worth my time and attention.

[Lost_more_then_Once]

41 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Is a God Moment mentioned in the bible? 

 

Absolutely.  What kind of experiences are you intreasted in.  Directed contact with God like Adam and Eve? Visions, dreams, prophecies?  Healings miracles, or some kind of other experience.  I'd say that most of the bible is about God moments.  The question from there though is whether any of that is true, something to learn from, or points to God.  A simular question could be asked of any religion's texts. Is any of it reliable, something to learn from, or points to God or the truth.

 

I am a Christian that believes in the bible.  I assume since you aren't Christian you don't.  Might be a worth while topic in the future?  I don't know.  Some topics or sections of the bible discussed by ex-Christians that still might have something to say about them, even if they don't believe in Christianity any more.

[older]

6 minutes ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

I am a Christian that believes in the bible.

   

So does that mean you believe in a deity that knows everything, created everything (including cancer), exists everywhere, has planned everything in advance, and can do absolutely anything (but won't, as I've pointed out above), and who sent himself to earth and then killed himself in order to avenge himself for a curse he put on us because one of our distant ancestors and a rib woman ate fruit off a magical tree after being told to do it by a talking snake?*

 

__________

*Not all my original words. I don't have the source for the second half of that sentence.

[Lost_more_then_Once]

21 minutes ago, older said:

   

My career related to photojournalism. I have seen photographs that the public will never see. Photographs that validate the Dan Barker quote in Truthseeker0's post above. Photographs of children starving to death. Children dying slow, painful deaths from horrible diseases. Children born with horrific deformities that exceed the most demented of human imaginations, and destined for a life of pain and suffering. Photographs of human beings barely surviving in conditions that are not fit for insects. This tangible, verifiable evidence, which I observed over a period of 40 years, satisfies me that the Christian god cannot exist as he is defined. No loving, omnipotent god would allow these things to happen. If there is a god, it cannot be loving, omniscient, or omnipotent, and therefore is not worth my time and attention.

 

We live in a broken world, no argument from me on that aspect.  I don't have an explaination, or a solution.  Only that the observation of the horror in the world is really there.  There are some explainations out there that I've heard, or that I've considered.  But no, the scope of badness in the world is not something I have an explaination for.  But neither do they become an excuse to dismis what I do know, and what I have seen.

[older]

2 minutes ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

But neither do they become an excuse to dismis what I do know, and what I have seen.

  

I don't view it as an excuse. I view it as sufficient evidence for the non-existence of the Christian god.

[Lost_more_then_Once]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

 

Maybe God could be a little more forthcoming. Speak out loud in a strong voice to me. Actually to a large group. In person and on tv as well. Otherwise there's not much reason to change my mind. Why do YOU have to do God's dirty work? If he wants a relationship he can come to me himself. 

 

There's a quote in the bible from Jesus concerning the Holy Spirit.  I kind of think it might apply here too though.  Jesus said concerning many of the religous leaders that they will never know the Holy Spirit, because they don't look for Him.  It might be something applicitable here too.  Some people look hard for God and they find Him.  Sometimes they just keep finding Him in bigger ways through their lives.

 

Can't say that's a hard fast rule though because some people have a testimony of being confronted by God, not that they searched for Him.

 

As for me, if I'm doing God's work that's an awesome privalage.  I don't have any comment of if I am or if I'm not.  I don't know His plans, so it's possible that my question and concern is getting in the way.  That said,  I'd still like to know if God moments are so rare that some people never have them, and what could cause a person who's had any God moments to dismiss them.

 

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

How much have you researched in favor of the existence of God?

How much have you researched against the existence of God?

 

I've enough research to not dismiss what I've found.  I've had enough to question my faith.  I've had enough that have tested my views.

[Lost_more_then_Once]

13 minutes ago, older said:

  

I don't view it as an excuse. I view it as sufficient evidence for the non-existence of the Christian god.

 

If you've never had a God moment, then you might not understand where I'm coming from.  

[midniterider]

18 minutes ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

 

Absolutely.  What kind of experiences are you intreasted in.  Directed contact with God like Adam and Eve? Visions, dreams, prophecies?  Healings miracles, or some kind of other experience.  I'd say that most of the bible is about God moments.  The question from there though is whether any of that is true, something to learn from, or points to God.  A simular question could be asked of any religion's texts. Is any of it reliable, something to learn from, or points to God or the truth.

 

I am a Christian that believes in the bible.  I assume since you aren't Christian you don't.  Might be a worth while topic in the future?  I don't know.  Some topics or sections of the bible discussed by ex-Christians that still might have something to say about them, even if they don't believe in Christianity any more.

 

Not really what I was asking about but that's ok. It was a vague question. Yes, there are a lot of particular God experiences in the bible. And whether any of it is true is debatable. I agree.

 

A consistent repeatable God experience would be nice. Like God visits everyone or opens an office where you can visit him. Then I wouldnt have to believe in him. That would be fine. But that doesnt mean I would want to worship him. I'm not sure why the God of the bible needs all this worship...

 

 

[older]

5 minutes ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

If you've never had a God moment, then you might not understand where I'm coming from.

  

So how do you answer the "why do bad things happen to good people" question?

 

(I'm going off line until tomorrow night. C ya then.)

[midniterider]

18 minutes ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

As for me, if I'm doing God's work that's an awesome privalage.  I don't have any comment of if I am or if I'm not.  I don't know His plans, so it's possible that my question and concern is getting in the way.  That said,  I'd still like to know if God moments are so rare that some people never have them, and what could cause a person who's had any God moments to dismiss them.

 

 

What if you aren't doing God's work, but are just wasting your time? Think of all the other stuff you could have done ...and maybe money you could have spent on something else. Why doesn't God do his own work? The Kingdom of God is inside of you (per the bible) but you don't know his plans? That's disappointing. 

 

Not sure how your question or concern could block God talking to you...assuming he did exist. Seems like an all powerful God could mow down your thoughts and grab your attention better than that. 

 

Are God moments your major reason for believing in God? Or do you have other reasons? 

 

 

[Lost_more_then_Once]

32 minutes ago, older said:

   

So does that mean you believe in a deity that knows everything, created everything (including cancer), exists everywhere, has planned everything in advance, and can do absolutely anything (but won't, as I've pointed out above), and who sent himself to earth and then killed himself in order to avenge himself for a curse he put on us because one of our distant ancestors and a rib woman ate fruit off a magical tree after being told to do it by a talking snake?*

 

__________

*Not all my original words. I don't have the source for the second half of that sentence.

 

Not exactly in that mind set of phrasing, but yes to the jist of it.  Rewording it won't change my answer.

 

4 minutes ago, older said:

  

So how do you answer the "why do bad things happen to good people" question?

 

(I'm going off line until tomorrow night. C ya then.)

 

Like I said I don't have a good answer.  One big issue that I count as part of the answer is that we live in a broken world.  This is bigger then bad things happening to good people or bad people.  But more in the issue of the giant amount of badness (regardless who recieves some of the things in the world), as well as a thought on how good anyone really is.  The world is broken, and for the most part we're broken with it.  Call it nature and being born in sin, call it nurture and that we live in a broken world so it has an effect on us as well; but in either event don't call it a choice.  There's a reason for Jesus saving us.  The brokenness of the world might be a challenge of if God is really good or not, but it is also a confirmation that we need saving.

[Lost_more_then_Once]

7 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

What if you aren't doing God's work, but are just wasting your time? Think of all the other stuff you could have done ...and maybe money you could have spent on something else. Why doesn't God do his own work? The Kingdom of God is inside of you (per the bible) but you don't know his plans? That's disappointing. 

 

Not sure how your question or concern could block God talking to you...assuming he did exist. Seems like an all powerful God could mow down your thoughts and grab your attention better than that. 

 

Are God moments your major reason for believing in God? Or do you have other reasons? 

 

 

 

Wasting my time?  What do you use to measure the value of a person's time?  Talking about religous maters and things of faith is both enjoyable and intriguing to me.  Even if this conversation holds no fruit, I don't think this is a waste of time.  I just finished a work week with a supervisor that has a very good ability to make me feel worthless.  Worse is she might be right.  Having an enjoyable conversation on and off on my day off isn't a waste of time for me.

 

being able to hear God ( in sone way or another) is something I hope for someday.  And I think maybe some times He might have.  But I also live in a mindset of not knowing.  Practical skeptism I suppose, but not blinding doubt.  Some things I can confirm.  But as of now what's my inner voice versus what's God inspired is not something I have an answer for.  

 

God moments are are a big reason, but no they aren't the only reasons.  At sone points they were a starting point in my journey, at other points they were confirmations of God, and still other times they seemed to make a point that I often under estimate God in my expectations.  I also have several other thoughts on the matter of my faith and the world around us.  Nonetheless I still think on a hirachary of reliability for discerning the truth from the crap; experience is the authority to correct us.

[midniterider]

With regard to the bible:

 

Who put a tree of the knowledge of good and evil smack dab in the middle of the garden of eden, then told two people who did not have the knowledge of good and evil not to eat from it?

Who allowed a serpent to talk to Eve about the fruit?

Who created the serpent?

Who got angry when those people ate from it anyway? 

Who decided this event was a sin? 

Who cursed all of Adam and Eve's descendents for a crime they didn't commit? 

 

The world is broken because God deemed it to be so. He could stop being a drama queen and just fix it. 

 

From a reality perspective: People are mean , shit happens , Christianity is nonsense. 

 

Anyway time for bed. Take care. 

[TEG]

In the Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna had quite the god moment.

Having uttered this, the Great Lord of Yoga showed to Arjuna
His Universal Form
with countless eyes and mouths, with many miraculous
sights, with numerous divine adornments, brandishing numerous
divine weapons,
in divine garments and necklaces, anointed with divine fragrant
oils, with faces to all sides, all-wonderful, flaming, infinite!
And if the shining of a thousand Suns blazed forth in the sky, it
would be comparable to the Glory of this Great Soul!
In it Arjuna saw the whole universe subdivided into many
worlds, but united into one in the Body of the Highest Deity.

So, Krishna must really exist.

When I was on the fence about christianity, questioning but still believing, I prayed for a god moment.  Really, honestly, with belief that if it were possible it would happen.  I never got one.

[Astreja]

12 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

Before any of you guys left Christianity, did you have any experiences of faith?

 

No faith whatsoever here. When I was younger I tried to play along, tried to give Christianity the benefit of the doubt to see if it would actually do anything, but never felt a single thing.  I seem to be congenitally unable to do religious faith.

 

 

[Astreja]

1 hour ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

 

We live in a broken world, no argument from me on that aspect.  I don't have an explaination, or a solution.  Only that the observation of the horror in the world is really there.  There are some explainations out there that I've heard, or that I've considered.  But no, the scope of badness in the world is not something I have an explaination for.  But neither do they become an excuse to dismis what I do know, and what I have seen.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.  The world is not uniformly horrible.  There are a lot of dysfunctional human societies, but life in the western world wasn't always a cakewalk either.  If you go back a few hundred years, a lot of things we take for granted such as clean water and warm houses were the exception rather than the rule.

 

  On the whole we're getting better, not worse -- it only seems like things are getting worse because bad news dominates the media.

[midniterider]

Satori is a nice wake up call. But then you realize you ARE god. 

 

ok, night night. 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

LmtO, does your god send these God moments to people of other religions?  Or just to christians?

 

Another question.  Have you ever been seen by a mental health professional?

[Lost_more_then_Once]

13 minutes ago, Astreja said:

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.  The world is not uniformly horrible.  There are a lot of dysfunctional human societies, but life in the western world wasn't always a cakewalk either.  If you go back a few hundred years, a lot of things we take for granted such as clean water and warm houses were the exception rather than the rule.

 

  On the whole we're getting better, not worse -- it only seems like things are getting worse because bad news dominates the media.

 

The scope of the bad things in the world don't dismiss the good parts of the world, but they still exist.  In too many ways the world is broken.  On the level of getting better or getting worse, I think I'd need to have a better scope of history to say much of it being better,morse, and why for either.  On the one hand the greater understanding of technology, medicine, and psychology have done some wonderous things for the countries that have been rich enough to harness them.  On the other hand the struggle between nations is like the struggle among people with competation of haves and have nots.  The harm done countries do to themselves as well as to other countries is a topic of the world continuingly breaking itself by choice (or necessity before it's done to them).

 

Wish I could share in the idea ofvthecworkd getting better.  As far as I can tell people are still the same as they were described as being in Shakespeare and older texts.  Have we really gotten better?  Can we get better.  Some people want to love the world around them and are successful or struggle to accomplish thus.  On the other hand there are countless assaults, crimes, violence, and even smaller issues of trying to get ahead by kicking others off a bridge of success.

[Lost_more_then_Once]

6 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Have you ever been seen by a mental health professional?

 

Have you?  

 

Not ot to make light of your jab, but if you ever needed to see one, or thought it would be helpful then I hope the best for ya.  I also hope you would have found a good one. There is a growing concern of abuse given by those in the professions that are suppose to help people.  Psychologists are among that group,mand unfortunately I'vecheard disheartening stories of mental health professionals who were very bad for the people who told their stories. (I also know of good ones, so it's not the profession it's the person that matters in the end).

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Thank you.  But you didn't answer my 1st question.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

And you didn't answer my 2nd question.

[Lost_more_then_Once]

6 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Thank you.  But you didn't answer my 1st question.

 

It's hard to take a person's questions seriously when they have casual jabs thrown at you.  But more to the point I have answered this question earlier in this conversation.  I think if God gives nonbelievers a God moment, that might be part of their journey to Him, or a chance for a wake up call for them about Him.  I also know of some Christians who's testomy of converting to Christianity from being an atheist was do to a God moment intruding on their life and their previous beliefs.

 

3 minutes ago, Weezer said:

And you didn't answer my 2nd question.

 

Actually I did.  Even if you didn't like the answer I did answer it.  Considering it was a casual jab at me as a Christian, I think you should consider my answer something that answers the point of the jab.  I won't change my answer, if you don't wish to change the question.  Fair enough?