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Lost_more_then_Once

A Christian with a question/concern

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I withdraw my question, but will answer yours.  Yes, I suffered from depression years ago, partly due to religion, and took antidepressants.

 

What you are describing is a subjective belief, and people from all religions and the nonreligious have them.  Some people call them God moments, or experiences.  And some claim God talks to them.  But none of that can be considered as "truth" or fact.  What else did you want from the forum? 

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I might add that God never gave me a God moment.  And even though I prayed for years for him to help me, he didn't.  Why would he give someone a "moment" who wasn't asking for it, but not give it to someone fervently asking for it?

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4 minutes ago, Weezer said:

I withdraw my question, but will answer yours.  Yes, I suffered from depression years ago, partly due to religion, and took antidepressants.

 

Thank you for your sencerity.  I saw someone several years ago after a breakup, and one more recently due to work related issues.  I do hope the best for you.

 

9 minutes ago, Weezer said:

What else did you want from the forum? 

 

If you want I can go.

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1 minute ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

 

Thank you for your sencerity.  I saw someone several years ago after a breakup, and one more recently due to work related issues.  I do hope the best for you.

 

 

If you want I can go.

 

My depression cleared up after leaving religion. That was years ago.  I guess God didn't care.  Or maybe the one we read about in the bible doesn't exist.  Right now I have to get some sleep.  Good night.  You can stay around as long as you like.

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6 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

What evidance did you find that supersedes your experience?  Not supersede someone else's experience, or my experience, but nullifies your own experiences?

 

First there is no evidence whatsoever that what I experienced was from God. I told myself that, and people around me told me that because that was the circle I was in. So thinking back I ask how do I know that was an experience from God as opposed to just an experience in my mind?

 

This brings me to the well documented states a human mind can create. You should do some reading on just how susceptible the human mind is to suggestion and making errors. How do you differentiate between a deluded or schizophrenic mind and one that's genuinely had an experience from God?

 

Most (Actually all) people I know of that report 'god moments' cannot tell me why they know it was from God, only that they strongly believe it was from God. Interestingly had these people been brought up believing faeries gave people experiences they'd be attributing the experience to fairies. They attribute to god because that's what they've been brought up with, as was I.

 

For a starter article on how our brains can be 'hacked' read this https://new.exchristian.net/2019/01/youve-been-hacked-psychology-of.html 

 

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 This is the tragedy that I see in the situation.  To find God in an amazing way and later deny it completely in my opinion is like getting a precious treasure and then throwing it away as nothing or worthless.  Or to love a spouse fully and later have it fall apart.

 

The problem here is that you are starting with the presupposition that God exists and that the experiences are related to God. How do you know that?

 

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whatever evidence it was I'm interested in hearing it.  As the the experiences from other religions, yes very much so I'd like to hear them.  Well most of them anyways.  Same as I said before for individuals who give a reason to doubt them there is one religion that is on my list that qualifies with preemptive reasons to doubt.  Scientology is not something I will tolerate as potentially a legitimate source for what's true or what's real.

 

Why are you singling out Scientology? You have a problem with Scientology, but accept talking snakes and donkeys, walking on water, virgins giving birth, dead people rising on mass etc??

 

If anybody wandered into a room and started babbling this stuff we'd call them mad, but because lots of people have organised together into a religion we say it we say it's from God. Really?

 

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2 hours ago, Weezer said:

I might add that God never gave me a God moment.  And even though I prayed for years for him to help me, he didn't.  Why would he give someone a "moment" who wasn't asking for it, but not give it to someone fervently asking for it?

 

I hope someday you get to find God.  He helped me on one occassion with depression when I was a kid.  That was one of the first moments that I had substance instead of just belief and hope.

 

2 hours ago, Weezer said:

What you are describing is a subjective belief, and people from all religions and the nonreligious have them.  Some people call them God moments, or experiences.  And some claim God talks to them.  But none of that can be considered as "truth" or fact.  What else did you want from the forum? 

 

This might not be a point worth pressing, but I'm not talking about subjective belief in these instances but about observations.  Not worth pressing though because what proof could I give?  My testomy?  Would anyone here even believe it? Consider it?  Give it a passing thought?  A person can know that God is real, if God is real.  I know that mush as well from observations.

 

I have an answer for your question though.  Sorry it took a moment to gather.  I have some friends, coworkers, and family that are not Christian.  I don't know if any of them ever were Christian or not, only that as of now they are not.  These are people of value to me.  Some of them have had spiritual experiences that I know of and others I don't know.  My reason for being here is two part.  One part is for them. And the other part is for those I hear that leave Christianity, saying they probabley never really believed to begin with.

 

I may have just agravated all of you, and become the enemy of your combined focus.  Or just wasting your time.  If that is the case and I caused more harm then not, then I am sorry for that.  But God does love you.  All of you.  If He can live a failure like me then he has more reason to love you guys as well.  Hope you all find a happy reunion with God and have the time to enjoy it.

 

sleep well Weezer.

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1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

First there is no evidence whatsoever that what I experienced was from God. I told myself that, and people around me told me that because that was the circle I was in. So thinking back I ask how do I know that was an experience from God as opposed to just an experience in my mind?

 

That experience you know better then I do based on the details, your age, or any other factors to suggest that you weren't thinking clearly, or if you had no reason to doubt your observations.  If the conclusions are that what you experienced wasn't from God, but that they still really happened (you weren't delusional, schizophrenic or your mind playing games on you), then I can accept those terms easier.  A difference of conclusion I can accept more then a massive scale of irrationality or a crisis of knowing what's real and what isn't.  The population of people casually concluded as delusional is a bit disturbing in my personal opinion.

 

1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

This brings me to the well documented states a human mind can create. You should do some reading on just how susceptible the human mind is to suggestion and making errors. How do you differentiate between a deluded or schizophrenic mind and one that's genuinely had an experience from God?

 

Drug induced states of mind for example?  Moments of distress from high stress perhaps?  A medical condition of seeing people and symptoms of paronia?  Are these the well documented states the human mind can create, or do you mean exaggerating what you remember instead of experience something that never really happened.  I said it just a second ago but it's worth repeating.  The casualness of calling large portions of society as crazy for no merit except that they are religous is a disturbing stance that I see from those defending an atheistic belief.

 

1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Most (Actually all) people I know of that report 'god moments' cannot tell me why they know it was from God, only that they strongly believe it was from God. Interestingly had these people been brought up believing faeries gave people experiences they'd be attributing the experience to fairies. They attribute to god because that's what they've been brought up with, as was I.

 

The problem here is that you are starting with the presupposition that God exists and that the experiences are related to God. How do you know that?

 

I'm not a child, and I doubt you are either.  Having presupposition on any matter comes with living life and coming to your own conclusions. It's not a problem.  Nor should it be considered a problem, least it turn into the hypocrisy within the scope of the idea.  That the standard of having no presumptions should be applied to you instead of just those you disagree with.  

 

But I get your point.  How do I know?  In one instance God answered a boy's cry to end it all with an intense feeling of love.  In another instance, it was a teen praying to get over a highschool break up and not just get angrier and angrier.  He answered that prayer and fixed the problem when I couldn't myself.  He answered a prayer that led to a physical chance in my wakefulness late one night while driving home. He's also responded to prayers, praises, and a few other moments with a feeling of one kind or another.  The reason I know God is real is because He responds.  He has answered prayers about me personally and a few for others that were prayed for.  This isn't a matter that people can't really know.  I'm telling you people can know with full confidance that God is real.  What ?I don't know is why I can have a few of these moments but others here gave had none.  

 

Conversely though most people I know and have talked to have had some spiritual experience or another.  They aren't all Christian, and they might not all believe it's God, but they can at least still hold on to their experiences with the knowledge that there's something more out there.

2 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Why are you singling out Scientology? You have a problem with Scientology, but accept talking snakes and donkeys, walking on water, virgins giving birth, dead people rising on mass etc??

 

If anybody wandered into a room and started babbling this stuff we'd call them mad, but because lots of people have organised together into a religion we say it we say it's from God. Really?

 

 

I single out Scientology because of what I've found out about it.  As for your views of what I've written those are your views.  I'm not mad though, no matter how casually you would throw that term around.

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23 minutes ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

Not worth pressing though because what proof could I give?  My testomy?  Would anyone here even believe it? Consider it?  Give it a passing thought?  A person can know that God is real, if God is real.  I know that mush as well from observations.

 

The thing is, people can invent stories and call them "testimonies" if they want to, so unless we have a way to differentiate your experience from a mere story that someone invented, how are we supposed to believe that your testimony is accurate? I personally know someone who made up a story about having cancer to get sympathy from people so he could take advantage of them, but when it turned out that he didn't actually have it, he invented a story about how the Christian god cured it to make himself seem like less of a liar, but his BS was so unbelievable that even his fellow Christians called him out on it. If that person was to come onto this site to share a story with us about how the Christian god healed him of cancer, how could we tell the difference between his testimony and yours?

 

27 minutes ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

And the other part is for those I hear that leave Christianity, saying they probabley never really believed to begin with.

 

I don't really know of any former Christians saying, "I never really believed to begin with". It is usually the other way around; Christians saying to the ex-C that they were never true Christians in the first place, which is known as the No True Scotsman Fallacy. I do at least understand where they get the idea from because there is a verse in the Bible (I can't remember which one it was at the moment - it might have been in Romans somewhere) that actually says that people who leave the faith were never Christians.

 

31 minutes ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

I may have just agravated all of you, and become the enemy of your combined focus.  Or just wasting your time.  If that is the case and I caused more harm then not, then I am sorry for that.  But God does love you.  All of you.  If He can live a failure like me then he has more reason to love you guys as well.  Hope you all find a happy reunion with God and have the time to enjoy it.

 

I don't think I would call you an enemy just yet... Everybody is only picking apart the things you are saying to find out if those things are actually true, just in case you are mistaken in your conclusions. If you are, then we want to help you see it so that you can stop wasting your time by believing things that aren't actually true.

 

It would also be cool if you could realize that you are not worthless garbage like the Bible says you are and find a way to love yourself, without needing a god to tell you that you matter (as long as you love him, of course). As for the rest of us, if he loves us like you say he does, he should just come to us and prove it, rather than having middlemen like yourself do the work for him. I probably would have a happy reunion with your god if there was a good reason to believe AND it also turned out that most of what the Bible says about him is wrong (particularly the stuff that makes him sound like a sadistic, petty, prick).

 

Unless that happens, I can honestly say that I never will be a Christian again. If it turns out that I am wrong and he wants to send me to hell anyway, then guess what? The entire time I am suffering in the eternal Auschwitz that he created, I'll be glad that I never bowed the knee to him anyway. Anyone who would do this to someone cannot be worthy of love or respect. Just sayin'... 

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10 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

When I say sad I mean that in the sense of sorrow.  Like when I hear of a person who doesn't get along with their parents and haven't seen their family for years.  A feeling to feel bad for someone, and want to sympothize or give them your support.

Thank you for clarifying what the word "sad" means.

 

10 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

As for being a real Christian or not. I can't tell you anything on tgat matter, and so far I have no reason to doubt you.  (I have no reason to believe you either, but I lean on the scale of without a reason to doubt I try to consider the potential as if it could be true. The other way to look at it is have people prove that they are trustworthy and prove what they say, I don't want to do that unless there's a reason to doubt them first.

Thank you for not even addressing my point at all.

 

11 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

As for whether I can know if God exists or not, the truth is that yes I do know He exists.  I know this from several small experiences that slowly dispelled different conclusions to doubt in Him. 

Thank you for admitting that you do not know the difference between knowledge and belief. 

 

11 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

On that note though, you and I have never met.  There's no reason to believe me on those matters.

Thanks for playing.

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4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Thanks for playing.

Aw, he picked the wrong curtain and got the Zonk... :P

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If experience is going to be accepted as evidence, then said experience should be both  testable and reproducible.  In other words, any one so desiring should be able to say a quick prayer on a country road at night and then go on to make it home safely.  The number of cars in ditches is then proportional to the level of confidence which can be placed in the "evidence".

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12 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If experience is going to be accepted as evidence, then said experience should be both  testable and reproducible.  In other words, any one so desiring should be able to say a quick prayer on a country road at night and then go on to make it home safely.  The number of cars in ditches is then proportional to the level of confidence which can be placed in the "evidence".

 

In my opinion the only way my experience should count as evidence is if you knew me.  Even people you know and trust your own experiences are counted as more worth while.  Life experiences for the most part aren't repeatable.  But they still happened.  Experiences from strangers I'd shelve as possible instead of evidence.  More people with the same or simular experience changes possible to more likely, and then even some highly likely.  

 

No snark, just think about it for a bit.  

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13 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

My question is why you doubt your own experiences?  I mean this seriously.  My life has confirmations and corrections based on experience.  Doubt that and you doubt the ability to discern what is real and what isn't.  Usually it takes a very strong trick, to trick our own senses.  Not something to rationalize easily for strong experiences.

 

Hello LMTO (if I may), in your last two sentences, you talk about our senses and the evidence they provide. But there are many kinds of experiences, and within the experience there is what is in our head, so to speak, and there is the content of the experience, that we think maps or represents something outside of our head. It's not usually a problem when, say, you are on a hiking trail and standing in front of a tree stump looking at it. You have the mental image of the stump, your mind classifies it in a category it has constructed in the past from other mental images, etc. etc.

 

But say you continue down the trail and suddenly, you freeze. It looks like a bear down there! OMG. Your heartbeat picks up, you wonder whether to run or stand still or back up slowly ...  you make motions to people behind you to be careful, and you mouth to them, "There's a bear."

 

However it happens, suppose you discover after having gained more data that what you saw and thought looked like a bear was in fact another tree stump, strangely shaped. Later experiences give more clarity, from which you're in a better position to evaluate the content of the earlier experience and separate the sensory data - a shape - from the conclusions you drew about the data. So what I'm saying is consistent with the latter part of your post. I am not jettisoning the evidence of the senses! Just the opposite. We often discover after later reflection and further inquiry that we were at first wrong about external causes of what had gone by on our mental screen.

 

It should be obvious where I'm going with this. On later examination I found that things I had experienced, such as the Whoosh of the first time I spoke in tongues, were pretty clearly psychogenic. Other religions have these or similar phenomena, for example. My pastor used to point out that Paul indicates that the Corinthians had spoken in tongues and the like even before they were converted. And I found I could pretty much turn on and off the glossolalia. After a while even as a fervent Christian it sort of faded in importance. Ditto other phenomena. Answered prayer is VERY hard to establish as such - I won't even go there, it's a topic so often discussed.

 

I think, for starters, the Bible itself provides so many defeaters that supposed evidence from what we interpret as encounters with the divine is poorly equipped to overthrow skeptical conclusions about the religion's claims. 

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58 minutes ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

No snark, just think about it for a bit.

No snark; but i spent more than 30 years thinking about it.  We are discussing evidence for an omnipresent god.  If he is everywhere, I should be able to reproduce your experience of him.

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9 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

 

A God moment would be a wake up call in the suprise of "what just happened."  It doesn't mean you have a conclusion yet on any matter, only that you have an experience that you can't explain and holds the possibility of God being involved.

 

You're reasons to dismiss God aren't my concern right now unless you've had some kind of "what just happened" moment as well.  Then the reasons to dismiss your experience are my interest.  That's basically the topic I meant to discuss.

Oh ok. So you want to discuss god(s) but you want it to be within very specific parameters of personal "revelation" of some sort. Well I'm not interested as that has nothing to do with the ultimate existence or non existence of God(s). You could tell me you had a "what just happened" moment and as a result you are willing to consider the possibility that flying monkeys control the universe - it's about as relevant as that conclusion. 

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1 hour ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

 

In my opinion the only way my experience should count as evidence is if you knew me.  Even people you know and trust your own experiences are counted as more worth while.  Life experiences for the most part aren't repeatable.  But they still happened.  Experiences from strangers I'd shelve as possible instead of evidence.  More people with the same or simular experience changes possible to more likely, and then even some highly likely.  

 

No snark, just think about it for a bit.  

Trust me people here have "thought about it" and more than a bit. To tell us that we should think about these things just reveals how presumptuous you are. 

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11 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

One example for a God moment, or a wake up call (a surprise I wasn't expecting).

 

A few years back I was on my way home late at night from a wedding celebration.  We were in an isolated area so there was a bit of a drive home.  However, I was getting tired and was worried about driving safely.  A quick one or two word prayer asking for help resulted in an immediate wakefulness within me.  Like a shot of coffee.  I was not expecting that, but I got home safe, and had another half hour after before I was able to fall asleep.

 

Moments like that are what I'll call God moments.

 

Have you considered that YOU created this God in your mind, and YOU willed yourself to stay awake?

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14 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

 

When I say sad I mean that in the sense of sorrow.  Like when I hear of a person who doesn't get along with their parents and haven't seen their family for years.  A feeling to feel bad for someone, and want to sympothize or give them your support.

I'll probably come across as rude, but we don't need your pity. I don't know if it's occurred to you that some people actually don't "get along with" or see their family because it's *better* for them, for their mental health, and because they've no desire to foster toxic relationships. Such people aren't in need of pity, they're likely thriving, while what are you doing? Being presumptuous by thinking that they need sympathy. 

And if you're saying this is similar to belief in god and us needing pity or sympathy because we don't believe in god(s), the same applies. 

The presumptuous attitude you have towards non believers is pretty apparent here. As several have said, you're a bit out of your depth and simply can't relate to such a worldview. 

 

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10 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

You're reasons to dismiss God aren't my concern right now unless you've had some kind of "what just happened" moment as well.  Then the reasons to dismiss your experience are my interest.  That's basically the topic I meant to discuss.

Cool beans. You just admitted you've no interest in knowing why people here left their belief in god. As such, you shouldn't be attempting to have a conversation here where you try to understand us, because you've no desire in doing that. What you want to discuss is belief in god exclusively definined to the area of personal experience or revelation, which most people in this community will find ridiculous. Most people here are able to reason and use logic in coming to their conclusions. But as you don't want to hear about that your discussion thread will likely be short lived. 

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9 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

 

The scope of the bad things in the world don't dismiss the good parts of the world, but they still exist.  In too many ways the world is broken.

 

And I think that the best way to fix the problems is to tackle them one by one, with social consensus and the aid of professionals from relevant areas (e.g. biology, sociology, etc.)

 

We're still vastly better off than the pre-Enlightenment days when religion dominated Western culture and quality of life was in the toilet.

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6 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

 

But I get your point.  How do I know?  In one instance God answered a boy's cry to end it all with an intense feeling of love.  In another instance, it was a teen praying to get over a highschool break up and not just get angrier and angrier.  He answered that prayer and fixed the problem when I couldn't myself.  He answered a prayer that led to a physical chance in my wakefulness late one night while driving home. He's also responded to prayers, praises, and a few other moments with a feeling of one kind or another.  The reason I know God is real is because He responds.  He has answered prayers about me personally and a few for others that were prayed for.  This isn't a matter that people can't really know.  I'm telling you people can know with full confidance that God is real.  What ?I don't know is why I can have a few of these moments but others here gave had none.  

 

 

Why do you feel compelled to try to convince us that God is real? God is all powerful, right? He doesn't need you to talk for him. He could talk to us at anytime ... provided that he is real. It seems to me that it is much more important to YOU that we believe in God than it is important to God that we believe in him.

 

I'm sure if there was a God and he wanted us to hear him then we would be unable to ignore him. Am I right?  

 

I think having a handful of 'experiences' and positive outcomes to prayer is not enough to say God exists nor that God caused any of those experiences or outcomes. 

 

Why is it that 'reality' is here 100% of the time? Friends, relatives, workmates, I see all the time. Every day. I dont need to convince someone they exist. But God only shows up a handful of times in your life? Christians tend to be fixated on Jesus, obsessing over him daily, but for some reason are happy to only get scraps from their God (aka their imagination), savoring some tidbit of a prior moment and using it to 'prove' their deity.  

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The bible says that god is not a respecter of persons, that the lord makes the rain to fall on the just and the wicked.  If this is true, why would god respect you enough to provide you with evidence in the form of experience, but not respect me enough to extend the same evidence?

 

Perhaps your beliefs are unscriptural.  Or your god is.  Or both.

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A couple of stories come to mind regarding this topic.

 

Years ago, when people in my church were giving testimonies, a young lady said she needed to share her story. It seems she reached in her freezer and her finger became stuck to the cold surface. She prayed, and God released her finger! Can I get an Amen? Even as a fervent believer at the time I realized how stupid this was.

 

My fundy father, who lived religion 24 hours a day, told me about a little road trip he had taken. While on the Interstate a tire blew out. He prayed and God allowed him to safely pull over to wait for AAA. I just had to ask him why God just didn't just prevent the blowout or at least let the tire go flat in the driveway. He said, "It doesn't work that way."

 

So how does it work? Random things happen, some good and some bad. The Jesus-bot will attribute each one to God answering a prayer, God's infinite mercy, or perhaps God had to teach someone a lesson or test their faith. To the carpenter, every problem is a nail.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, florduh said:

To the carpenter, every problem is a nail.

To the coffin-maker, the final nail solves the problem.

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12 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

 

We live in a broken world, no argument from me on that aspect.  I don't have an explaination, or a solution.  Only that the observation of the horror in the world is really there.  There are some explainations out there that I've heard, or that I've considered.  But no, the scope of badness in the world is not something I have an explaination for.  But neither do they become an excuse to dismis what I do know, and what I have seen.

 

So if we dont want to use horror in the world as an excuse to say God doesnt exist, then I guess it would be logical to say that God exists and allows horror in the world? 

 

 

 

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