A Christian with a question/concern

[♦ ficino ♦]

2 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

The point being that the generalization of delusion or that people don't know what's real and what isn't is a copout excuse for religious experiences.  

 

 

When you label an experience as a "religious" experience, you are slipping in a God claim by the way you are using the descriptor, "religious." The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the cause of the experience was God and not something else. 

2 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

 The bias you all say .i am showing for acknowledging God in the experiences I've shared where he made an infukence is nothing compared to the bias to automatically assume a hysteria and delusion by too many witnesses to disregard.

Same thing here. None of us can prove that some experience of yours WASN'T caused by God, but we have no reason to think that it was caused by God. It's on you to demonstrate that it was.

 

Since as you acknowledge, we can't have your exact experience, then we are left with no way of evaluating your claim. But since we are aware of similar experiences in others and ourselves, which seem to have natural explanations, a natural explanation is our default assumption about your experiences. It's an assumption - yes, but one we've found in general works in life. 

 

If you have evidence for God that is amenable to the same method of testing by any observer, let's hear it.

[midniterider]

4 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

Regarding the experience in the drive home that I shared earlier, it is a very large stretch that I willed myself to have more energy when I was tired.  I can push myself to keep my eyes open when I'm tired.  But willing more energy on command?  That wasn't from me.  It was an answer to the prayer.  From there the question can be asked "who answered it?" Or the question can be asked if I am a lier.  In either case I have my own conclusion.  This was one of a few times the confirms that God is real and that He listens to and responds to prayers.  I've had other confirmations in my life.  Each one just makes the case stronger that God is real.  In a later reply you challenge my beliefs on the sole point that God hasn't been proven and it's a presupposition.  But I am telling you now in the same way that I know that bees sting because I've felt them sting me, I also know that God is real.  It's not a presupposition, it's an established truth of the world we live in.

 

Going back to the previous comment on consciousness, I do hope that the God moments I was asking you guys about aren't as rare as they are sounding.  But from talking to you guys here there are a few here that seem to have never had them.  Making those experiences at least that rare.  It's an unfortunate answer but I asked because I wanted to know.

 

So , God is the god of bits, the god of scraps? "Here, take this tidbit and let it tide you over for a few years..." I've believed that way in the past. I got all excited once because of my new God idea..."God is assurance, not insurance." I thought it was clever. Told my wife about it. Well, the pastor said that same phrase during the sermon that week and I'm like, "Whoa!!! God musta heard me!" .... Maybe it WAS a God moment...maybe someone mentioned my idea to another churchie and it found its way to the pastor.... more likey, it was coincidence....then the importance of it faded. 

 

I dont consider this a God moment anymore. More of a coincidence moment. These experiences rarely occurred which made me look for 'things' that 'could have' been the real deal. Assigning agency to randomness. I dont do it much anymore. Not really interested in handing myself over to repressive religious systems with zealous OCD believers. Do you believe that people who dont love Jesus will burn in Hell?

 

.......

 

I think I'll have a wife moment .... she's in the kitchen... I can see her. Speak with her anytime. And she talks back...boy does she. I dont have to wonder about if she's real, or 'talk' in my head on her behalf. She even says things I dont agree with (sometimes) or would not expect.   I love real beings.

 

 

 

Quote

On a side note, I get from my initial reactions from you guys that you've got a bad taste for Christians, so perhaps it's a good thing for this conversation to last at least a little longer for the sake of being able to talk civilly to Christians.  (I saw you guys had another Christian visit recently and the conversation went pear shaped fairly quickly.  So think on whether that's how you want to act like or not.  Perhaps a void conversation might break up the habit of preemptive anger at Christians.

 

 

It's a real treat to have Christians here, imo. This forum gets spicy during these moments. It's fun to debate and debunk Christian beliefs. Sure , things get heated. I dont think I get 'angry' , per se. Unless holding a differing opinion is your definition of anger. If I was angry I probably would not log on here. 

 

We all have strong opinions. But I'm willing to say that my beliefs are opinions, not facts and that there is zero consequence for other people not believing what I believe.. Are you? I'm also willing to say that a God might be real. Are you willing to say that God might not be real? I'm just not interested in worshiping one...and if he isn't going to show up, why bother believing in him?

 

One thing I've seen on this forum is that visiting Christians sometimes go ballistic when they realize that their 'discussion' is not swaying our beliefs. People here are not required to give the usual respect to religion that Christians usually experience in real life. This sets off some Christians. If you think our prior Christian visitor was not being snarky and merely an innocent victim, well, I disagree. 

 

Anyway, Cthulu bless you. 

[Joshpantera]

On 2/6/2020 at 7:57 AM, Lost_more_then_Once said:

But I am telling you now in the same way that I know that bees sting because I've felt them sting me, I also know that God is real.  It's not a presupposition, it's an established truth of the world we live in.

 

But that's just it, it isn't an established truth. The problem here is that you are thinking that it's established truth when it clearly is not. If you come at this from an objective stand point, and an honest one, will you admit that just because you think something is true or have the opinion that it's true, doesn't make it a hard fact? It has to be a presupposition on your part, because it's not a hard fact. It's just your opinion at this moment in time. The opinion could change. And then you'd see that it wasn't ever a hard fact to begin with. It was just a perspective subject to change. 

 

You can prove a bee sting. You can demonstrate the reality of the injury on your physical body. You have nothing comparable to provide as a demonstration of the existence of god.

 

If you think that you do, then by all means, try and provide the demonstration. Whatever you could possibly demonstrate will have multiple explanations and will not default to conclusive evidence of the existence of god, let alone the biblical gods mentioned in the bible, let alone YHWH who was eventually narrowed down and then believed as the only god (refer to the provided citation). 

 

On 2/6/2020 at 7:57 AM, Lost_more_then_Once said:

Going back to the previous comment on consciousness, I do hope that the God moments I was asking you guys about aren't as rare as they are sounding.  But from talking to you guys here there are a few here that seem to have never had them.  Making those experiences at least that rare.  It's an unfortunate answer but I asked because I wanted to know.

 

What you are calling god moments, I have regularly all the time. The issue is that I know too much about god and the related issues to think that any of it has to do with the bible or it's theistic conceptions. You are calling basic aspects of human consciousness, synchrocity, and possibly mind over matter situations, "god moments." And that comes from the presuppostion that you do have. Once moving away from the presupposition, there's no good reason for seeing it that way. 

 

People often mistake these types of things for theistic confirmation. When they actually are not confirmation at all. 

[TEG]

On 2/6/2020 at 4:57 AM, Lost_more_then_Once said:

But I am telling you now in the same way that I know that bees sting because I've felt them sting me, I also know that God is real.  It's not a presupposition, it's an established truth of the world we live in.

 

It’s a feeling you have.

This is an example of what I would call the “believer’s fallacy”:  “I am convinced that there is a god, so you have to believe it too.”  Or to put it another way:  “But, there’s a god!”

Not much point in trying to go any farther with this line of “reasoning.”

[Myrkhoos]

This does lead me to think deeper about the nature of experience -. I sure would have like to have the necessary tools to conduct some studies - sadly , I do no own a rich fortune and university. sad face. I think I would to study something like biophysics or medical physics. 

 

[Lost_more_then_Once]

To everyone.

 

Something that I think should be cleared up.

 

•On the 5th at 5:03am, Myrkhoos asked about my Christian denomination, my main beliefs and where I got them from.  On the same day at 1:57pm, I at least tried to answer on my denomination and my main beliefs.  I'm sure I could have added more to it, but this is what I found think of and write down before having to leave for work.  Just for clarification, if you've been following the conversation so far I'm not saying you have to believe the same way because I say so, but I am glad I was asked and that I could answer.  So far I've been trying to respond to your guys' responses to me in roughly the same order that they come on this forum.  This question was out of order for a bit, but I thought it was worth answering while it was fresh.

 

•on the 5th at 9:59pm JoshPantera responded to my list of beliefs with one point of concern.  That I come from the assumption that God is real, and that alone is enough to question all of those beliefs listed.

 

•yesterday on the 6th, I went back to trying to respond to the comments that I've been given in mostly the order they were given.  The responses I got to were to ficino, LogicalFallacy, JoshPantera, and Weezer (out of order of responses so I could answer the question "why am I here").  In my response to JoshPantera I also acknowledged his later response to my list of beliefs.  Basically letting him know that my belief in God is not just an assumed belief.  There is enough combined evidence in my life to point to Him being real.  God is established as real and part of the world.  Again so far in this conversation I haven't tried to force any of you to believe what I believe, but nor have I been silent when my perspectives are challenged or questioned.

 

If you guys are under the assumption that I am trying to force you to believe what I believe, then let me clear this up.  If any of you start to see things the way I see it, that's great.  I'm sure you all have a similar position if I start to see things your way.  However, my intent is to just talk about a conversation topic that I enjoy talking about, and at best, my hope is that some of you walk away with the perspective of possibilities and are willing to look into things again in your own time and your own investigation.  Don't believe just because I say so, look into it though if you see merit outside of your previous conclusions.  That would be my most stretched hope in this conversation outside of just talking because people should be able to talk to others without the conversation lowering to a preemptive assault on the other person.  I other words, I think you guys need your views challenged in a civil conversation so that you know you don't have to try and cause a reaction or push the buttons in an uncivil manner, when you meet a Christian or anyone else with an established but different view.  This might not apply to all of you,mouth it dies to at least a few of you here.

[midniterider]

I think we all like people to agree with us and think our way. But from an agnostic or a pagan point of view, there isn't a terrible consequence if people dont come around to my way of thinking. Pagan gods and goddesses dont have a Great Commission to 'go and make disciples of all nations' . Atheists and agnostics have empathy for people and probably hate to see someone be controlled by fear and shame and guilt that they dealt with as Christians. This website exists for that reason and other reasons. Still, an ex-believer isn't mandated by anyone to bring Christians to non-belief. 

 

So when a Christian says they just 'want to talk' about Christianity, what they say may be true, but I'm fully aware that there is also a biblical mandate behind it as well... 

 

People 'should' be able to talk to others without feeling assaulted. I agree. But feeling assaulted goes in either direction.  I feel emotionally assaulted when I read memes posted on facebook that try to guilt me or fear me back to Christianity. And people keep posting stuff like that because 'they' are never challenged or called out on it. 

 

We are already much too polite in the real world when it comes to giving Christianity a break. I think there is a difference between 'civil' and 'agreeable.' I can be civil and still say "I dont believe in Jesus." 

 

....

 

" I haven't tried to force any of you to believe what I believe, but nor have I been silent when my perspectives are challenged or questioned."

"I think you guys need your views challenged in a civil conversation"

 

Do you feel 'your' views also need to be challenged by us? Yes, No? Why? Why not?

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Lost_more_then_Once, do you hate your father and mother; or do you honor them?

[WalterP]

Hello Lmto.

 

I've read this thread as its developed and I can answer your initial question (Before any of you guys left Christianity, did you have any experiences of faith?) with a definite, Yes.  However, in your latest post you've written something that prompts me to ask you a question.  

 

Basically letting him (JoshPantera) know that my belief in God is not just an assumed belief.  There is enough combined evidence in my life to point to Him being real.  God is established as real and part of the world.

 

Now to my question. If a Muslim wrote to JoshPantera saying exactly what you did, what should Josh do?

To the Muslim God is not just an assumed belief.  To the Muslim there is enough combined evidence in his life to point to Him being real.  God is established as real and part of the (Muslim's) world. Josh cannot tell which of the two sets of claims to give credence to.  They are (essentially) identical. Both rely upon subjective experiences that Josh cannot verify.

 

So, to repeat the question Lmto, what should Josh do?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Myrkhoos]

11 minutes ago, WalterP said:

Hello Lmto.

 

I've read this thread as its developed and I can answer your initial question (Before any of you guys left Christianity, did you have any experiences of faith?) with a definite, Yes.  However, in your latest post you've written something that prompts me to ask you a question.  

 

Basically letting him (JoshPantera) know that my belief in God is not just an assumed belief.  There is enough combined evidence in my life to point to Him being real.  God is established as real and part of the world.

 

Now to my question. If a Muslim wrote to JoshPantera saying exactly what you did, what should Josh do?

To the Muslim God is not just an assumed belief.  To the Muslim there is enough combined evidence in his life to point to Him being real.  God is established as real and part of the (Muslim's) world. Josh cannot tell which of the two sets of claims to give credence to.  They are (essentially) identical. Both rely upon subjective experiences that Josh cannot verify.

 

So, to repeat the question Lmto, what should Josh do?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One of the most important problems I ran into and still have not found any convincing answer. Proper testing methodology.

[Joshpantera]

On 2/7/2020 at 2:16 PM, Lost_more_then_Once said:

 In my response to JoshPantera I also acknowledged his later response to my list of beliefs.  Basically letting him know that my belief in God is not just an assumed belief.  There is enough combined evidence in my life to point to Him being real.  God is established as real and part of the world.  Again so far in this conversation I haven't tried to force any of you to believe what I believe, but nor have I been silent when my perspectives are challenged or questioned.

 

I'll clear something up, too. I'm just trying to get you to think about the claim you are making honestly. This about being honest more than it is about belief. And I don't think you're trying to be dishonest willfully. You're just blinded right now because of the belief. It's not allowing you to look at the bigger picture.

 

I'll explain. 

 

What you're using to claim that you know god is real, doesn't work when it comes to making that claim. Subjective claims don't work like that. So it's completely off the table. 

 

On 2/7/2020 at 4:46 PM, WalterP said:

Basically letting him (JoshPantera) know that my belief in God is not just an assumed belief.  There is enough combined evidence in my life to point to Him being real.  God is established as real and part of the world.

 

Now to my question. If a Muslim wrote to JoshPantera saying exactly what you did, what should Josh do?

To the Muslim God is not just an assumed belief.  To the Muslim there is enough combined evidence in his life to point to Him being real.  God is established as real and part of the (Muslim's) world. Josh cannot tell which of the two sets of claims to give credence to.  They are (essentially) identical. Both rely upon subjective experiences that Josh cannot verify.

 

So, to repeat the question Lmto, what should Josh do?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

The Muslim offers a similar, subjective belief as hard fact. It obviously doesn't work either. The same with a theistic Hindu. You can see that, because you don't share the same opinions that they do about their gods, or rendition of the same god. Same subjective claims, same result. A Christian, is not any different than anyone else making the same general subjective experience claims. It requires special pleading to try and negate this analysis. 

 

This is about you coming here with a perspective. And myself and others who were once right there in your shoes, pointing out were WE went wrong. We understand what was wrong about our previous subjective oriented beliefs, views, opinions and general ways of trying to reason through things like this. We were like you, or the Muslim, or the Hindu examples. And therefore we do understand what it's like to think that way. We were not able to see out ahead of ourselves beyond that way of thinking. Or see it from another perspective other than our own pet way of thinking. 

 

The bottom line is that you can't KNOW if your subjective experiences are correct or not. You literally can't possess that type of absolute knowledge about it. It's not possible in any literal sense. But nevertheless, you choose to believe it anyways. And that's were we start to see an intellectually honest oriented perspective begin to show itself.

 

When you get to the point where you can tell someone that (1) I can't know for certain whether or not god exists, but (2) I choose to believe that god exists anyways, (3) based on my own personal subjective experiences, then you are making honest and correct assertions. 

 

And I think that you have an interest in trying to keep it honest. That's a speculation on my part. And if my speculation about you is correct, then I'm inviting you to please join me in terms of trying to keep it as correct and honest as either of us possibly can. That makes for a much better discussion all the way around. 

 

The honesty on my end, is that I can not know whether or not a god exists, either. We both share the same situation in terms of knowledge and proof. The difference is that I do not choose to believe that god exists anyways, despite not knowing for certain. My subjective experiences, intuition, intellectual knowledge, and so on, lead me to betting the other way. I feel strong about my conclusions, like you do. But as strong as I feel about my own conclusions, I'm still open to new evidence and new thinking. I've never closed the door to growth and expansion. 

 

I can tell you that I'm about 99.9% sure that god doesn't exist, but willing to change my view given the right situation, evidence or demonstration proving otherwise. 

 

Can you tell me the same in return? 

 

If not, please explain why you can not meet me equally on the all of the intellectually honest points outlined above in this post. 

 

Thanks

[◊ Weezer ◊]

LMTO, I'll give this one more try, and try to put it in simple terms.  If you had been born into another nation, into another religion, and had the same God moments, you would believe, or "know" THAT was the real god, and the real religion.  I believed Christianity was the truth until I eventually studied the history of gods and religions and it became obvious that I was operating on the assumptions I had been born into. 

 

Born into a Hindu society, you would be Hindu, and "know" that was the truth.  If you want to know the truth, look for it.  You are only looking for confirmation that what you already "know" is the truth, and finding it through your god moments.   

 

You are also "hung up" on the definition of the word "know."  What we "know" is subjective.

[Lost_more_then_Once]

To TheRedneckProfessor.

I don't see how a copout has a "depends" category.  If the natural explanation of doubt on not being able to know what is real and what isn't was applied to all things in life. Then nothing would be acknowledged as reliable or real.  It isn't an explanation.  An explanation of delusion does not fit the situations of religious experiences in most cases.  Even the most stretched explanation of delusion do not fit that a person is sane one moment, delusional the next, and sane once more the next moment.

 

The cycle you posted is not one that I can relate to within my faith.  If it was for you then I'm sorry for you.  For me there was a different realization when it came to guilt and sin.  The cycle was not about comming back to God after a sin, but instead about shame and avoiding God even more which only fed that din or other sins to become more frequent and stronger.  Letting it get worse and worse was the sign that this was not working and it needed to be addressed.  However coming back to God in prayer and asking for help (instead of avoiding Him until I got it together), resulted in being strengthened against the comon struggles I had.

 

Regarding my relationship with my parents, I can say that I am lucky.  But I doubt your question actually has to do with my relationship with my parents.  Go ahead and make your point honestly and I'll respond to it if I see it worth answering.

[Lost_more_then_Once]

To Crazyguy123,

I like the idea of suspended doubt and suspended belief towards the things that we don't have enough information to form an opinion on.  With regards to religion this approach resembles the agnostic position about God.  Unsure if He really does exist or not, and not commuting to a stance to believe in Him (or in any other gods) or to disbelieve entirely.

 

What I mean is that while having a standpoint of looking for red flags is good to search out if something is off, what it can only do is say "this is possible" instead of actually pointing out what's true and what isn't.  Concerning whether I'm right and you all missed something, or that I'm mistaken, if I don't set off any alarms for something being off, then all that says is tgat it might be possible that I am right.  (Or at the very least, that the points I have might hold merit).

 

The problem of evil is a hard one.  I don't know why one person is born and another aborted; one person is wealthy and another starving; one person is happy (or at least happy most of the time) and another has depression and suicidal thoughts.  Nor why there's such a thing as serial murderers, serial rapists, and oppressive governments that kill their own people.  I have no answer why evil is allowed to exist.  Some things like my head injury could be considered something to shape my life with and give empathy like you said.  But the question of evil is bigger then that.  I don't count my head injury of an example of the evil in the world.  And I can't explain God's mercy on me based on anything I've done.      Nonetheless, I know from my experiences the mercy and love that God has.

 

The punishing of four generations, I've thought about a bit.  Have you ever looked at concepts like: "like father like son?" And wondered about the sinful patterns taught from one generation to the next?  It's just a thought but would you look at sin differently if you knew your actions now might result in your kids, grandkids, and great-grands, might struggle with the same mistake you make today?  It's just a thought.

As for our thoughts, they matter.  From our thoughts are what lead to what we say and what we do.  Harboring some thoughts encourage other thoughts of the same kind, hardening our hearts to continue in that line of thought.  You can look at this from that observation, as well as see God letting your heart be hardened as a testimony of the evil on those thoughts.  In this way, your actions (even your thoughts) have consequences and are made from your choices.  Yet God is still in contol,  even in your ability to make your own choices and have the consequences result from them.

 

About God being Jealous.  Do you have a wife or kids that you love?  If so how would you feel if your wife cheated on you?  Or your kids cut you out of their lives?  Would you be jealous?  Move it to the next degree and think that your wife cheated on you and left you for some one that was no good and harmful in her life; or the same with your kids cutting you out of their lives and filling it with a drug addiction.  Wouldn't your jealousy burn from loving them and be out of concern for their lives?  This is what it's like when people turn away from God to anything else.  Compared to God, everything else is a bad influence on our lives.

 

This goes back to the issue of evil in the world.  One point is that evil exists because of rejecting God, and rejecting what He said.  On a world wide scale this means something drastic and we see the result of it in the world around us.  We live in a broken environment, our choices of being moral isn't going to save us from a community swamped in corruption.  No, instead the evil results one person does has consequences shared by the community around them.  That's the cost of free will.  Nothing you do only affect just you.  With this in mind the problem of evil changes not to just "why is any of it allowed?" to also a question of free will.

 

When I started to read the bible God had already impacted my life.  This was before I was Christian, while I was searching for God when I started to read the bible, as well as after when I accepted Christianity as being from God, but rejected the Bahai faith as not coming from God.  Let me stress the importance of that point.  My dad's faith, the Bahai faith has a lot of wonderful things in it that I wish I could say are from God in the same way that Jesus's teachings are from God.  The God moments while reading the bible weren't just about reading something and agreeing with it.  It was reading something and a feeling like God was right there beside me while I was reading it.  When I started to read the bible it wasn't to discover if God was real or not.  By then I already had enough experience to know He is real.  What it was about was to see what is from God and what isn't.  Prayer lead me to know tgat God is real, the bible is what lead me to become a Christian.

For those who aren't Christian, I hold out hope for them.  All of them.  For you, for my dad, for my brothers, and for several friends and coworkers.  I hope that God will be kind and merciful to all of them like He has been with me.  I hope that all of them (and you guys included) eventually find God for yourselves and are safe in that.  And I hope that if you don't before you die, you will have at least one more chance of turning to God before the consequences in the bible take effect.  I have loved ones on the line here, I can't help but hope.  Yet it's not up to me, and if not accepting Jesus is the bottom line, then sadly, that's how it'll be. 

 

Crazyguy123, it really sounds like your angry at God.  You rejected Him because you couldn't see why God actively punished people or passively allowed evil.  I don't know if this will help you in finding if God is real or not, but I hope it helps with relieving some of the anger.  Consider the book of Jonah. 

 

In that book Jonah the prophet is called to preach a message of doom and destruction to an enemy of Israel.  In reality this would also be a warning for them not just a proclamation of doom.  So instead of going to the city filled with evil to the point of being sentenced by God, Jonah goes the opposite direction.  Let that enemy of Israel be surprised by their doom, and have no warning in case they repent and turn from their sins. (You find out Jonah's motivation at the end of the book).  However God did not respect Jonah's decision and eventually Jonah went to the city and preached a message of doom and destruction.  The result?  The city repented, turned away from the evil that going on in the city, this avoiding the punishment sentenced by God.

 

Now consider the impact of that message of destruction.  It may have changed the city for the better and actually saved lives from being murdered in the streets or oppressed in any other way.  With a result like that, can you say it wasn't given out of God's love to save that city?  In the same way the warning to come to God and follow Him might positively affect not just those who hear the message, but also the people that that person is around.  (Because he listened to the warning and is trying to remove the sinful habits and choices from his life, that might stop him from harming another person).

[Lost_more_then_Once]

Just interrupting the line of thought for a question on this site.  How do you guys make someone's name get highlighted in the blue hyperlink?  I tried to put the "@" symbol in front of one person's name a few posts ago and that didn't do it.  Is there something else I need to do, or did I just spell a nene incorrectly?

[TEG]

Oh, bloody hell.

 

On 2/2/2020 at 9:48 AM, Lost_more_then_Once said:

I hope I'm not barging in, or being too disrespectful here for you all, but I have a question.  Really I guess it's a concern more then a question, but it is a question nonetheless.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

55 minutes ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

Just interrupting the line of thought for a question on this site.  How do you guys make someone's name get highlighted in the blue hyperlink?  I tried to put the "@" symbol in front of one person's name a few posts ago and that didn't do it.  Is there something else I need to do, or did I just spell a nene incorrectly?

 

@Lost_more_then_Once you have to start with the @ then type a person's namename. It will then start giving you member suggestions and you pick the one you want. You can't type a person's name then go back and put an @ in front. It won't work. 

 

The other way to tag a person is quote them. If you don't want the whole quote wipe most of it out. 

[midniterider]

55 minutes ago, TEG said:

Oh, bloody hell.

 

 

 

" I hope that all of them (and you guys included) eventually find God for yourselves and are safe in that.  And I hope that if you don't before you die, you will have at least one more chance of turning to God before the consequences in the bible take effect.  "

 

" I haven't tried to force any of you to believe what I believe..."

 

 

And so the threats begin.

 

 

[WalterP]

Hello again LmtO. 

 

I see that you're replying to us, but I just thought I'd preempt your reply to me with a little bit of clarification. 

 

Firstly, please note that I take a somewhat different position and approach to JoshPantera.  Even though I use him as an example in my post.  Josh takes a more proactive position than me, declaring that there are certain things that you cannot know.  I haven't done that.  My position is strictly neutral.  I haven't said anything except that you've made a trio of truth claims.

 

1.  Basically letting him (JoshPantera) know that my belief in God is not just an assumed belief.  

2.  There is enough combined evidence in my life to point to Him being real.  

3.  God is established as real and part of the world.

 

On the back of your truth claims I then asked how Josh could choose between your truth claims and identical ones made by a Muslim.  This was my one question to you.  Please note that I haven't actually said anything that disputes your claims.  Nor do I claim that you are mistaken, deluded, lying or anything else.  I would simply like you to tell me how Josh should choose between two identical sets of claims.

 

To make things clearer, here's an illustration.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

The cycle you posted is not one that I can relate to within my faith. 

The cycle I posted was not intended for you, as I know thay unless/until you see the christian religion for what it is, then there would be no way for you to understand the cycle.

 

4 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

Regarding my relationship with my parents, I can say that I am lucky.  But I doubt your question actually has to do with my relationship with my parents.  Go ahead and make your point honestly and I'll respond to it if I see it worth answering.

Answer the question, please.  Do you hate your father and mother; or do you honor them?

[Joshpantera]

4 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

@Lost_more_then_Once you have to start with the @ then type a person's namename. It will then start giving you member suggestions and you pick the one you want. You can't type a person's name then go back and put an @ in front. It won't work. 

 

The other way to tag a person is quote them. If you don't want the whole quote wipe most of it out. 

 

Another brief way is to highlight a small section of some's post as if you're copying to copy and paste. Then an icon will appear that says, "quote this section." If you select that feature then only the sentence or paragraph(s) that you've highlighted will appear in quotation in your new post. And you don't have to quote the whole post and delete unwanted sections. 

 

@Lost_more_then_Once just to clarify more about the subjective approach: https://www.diffen.com/difference/Objective_vs_Subjective

 

Subjective information or writing is based on personal opinions, interpretations, points of view, emotions and judgment. It is often considered ill-suited for scenarios like news reporting or decision making in business or politics. Objective information or analysis is fact-based, measurable and observable.

 

[midniterider]

4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The cycle I posted was not intended for you, as I know thay unless/until you see the christian religion for what it is, then there would be no way for you to understand the cycle.

 

Answer the question, please.  Do you hate your father and mother; or do you honor them?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK_8gybdF9I

 

[TruthSeeker0]

 

9 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

For those who aren't Christian, I hold out hope for them.  All of them.  For you, for my dad, for my brothers, and for several friends and coworkers.  I hope that God will be kind and merciful to all of them like He has been with me.  I hope that all of them (and you guys included) eventually find God for yourselves and are safe in that.  And I hope that if you don't before you die, you will have at least one more chance of turning to God before the consequences in the bible take effect.  I have loved ones on the line here, I can't help but hope.  Yet it's not up to me, and if not accepting Jesus is the bottom line, then sadly, that's how it'll be. 

Not here to evangelize and save souls, huh?

9 hours ago, Lost_more_then_Once said:

Crazyguy123, it really sounds like your angry at God.  You rejected Him because you couldn't see why God actively punished people or passively allowed evil.  I don't know if this will help you in finding if God is real or not, but I hope it helps with relieving some of the anger.  Consider the book of Jonah. 

 

In that book Jonah the prophet is called to preach a message of doom and destruction to an enemy of Israel.  In reality this would also be a warning for them not just a proclamation of doom.  So instead of going to the city filled with evil to the point of being sentenced by God, Jonah goes the opposite direction.  Let that enemy of Israel be surprised by their doom, and have no warning in case they repent and turn from their sins. (You find out Jonah's motivation at the end of the book).  However God did not respect Jonah's decision and eventually Jonah went to the city and preached a message of doom and destruction.  The result?  The city repented, turned away from the evil that going on in the city, this avoiding the punishment sentenced by God.

 

Now consider the impact of that message of destruction.  It may have changed the city for the better and actually saved lives from being murdered in the streets or oppressed in any other way.  With a result like that, can you say it wasn't given out of God's love to save that city?  In the same way the warning to come to God and follow Him might positively affect not just those who hear the message, but also the people that that person is around.  (Because he listened to the warning and is trying to remove the sinful habits and choices from his life, that might stop him from harming another person).

This isn't a place to preach about the Bible - we are way too familiar with such sermons. 

[LogicalFallacy]

On 2/8/2020 at 8:16 AM, Lost_more_then_Once said:

There is enough combined evidence in my life to point to Him being real.  God is established as real and part of the world.  Again so far in this conversation I haven't tried to force any of you to believe what I believe, but nor have I been silent when my perspectives are challenged or questioned.

 

And there is enough combined evidence (and lack thereof) in my life to point to God simply being an invention made by humans. God exists... but only in the minds of humans. As such there are as many different gods as there are humans that believe in them. This of course is part of the big debate between theists and atheists. Do any gods exist?

 

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If you guys are under the assumption that I am trying to force you to believe what I believe, then let me clear this up.  If any of you start to see things the way I see it, that's great.  I'm sure you all have a similar position if I start to see things your way.  

 

I would be happy to say I think that a representative position of the members here is that you cannot force people to believe what they believe. Therefore it wouldn't really concern us if you were trying to 'force' us. It would appear as a rather funny but futile effort.

 

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However, my intent is to just talk about a conversation topic that I enjoy talking about, and at best, my hope is that some of you walk away with the perspective of possibilities and are willing to look into things again in your own time and your own investigation.

 

Considering that I am constantly engaging with Christians, both here and on other platforms, and regularly listen to debates and conversations on the topic of religion don't you think this is an indication that I (and some others here possibly) are 'looking into things'? It's just that every time the religious viewpoint is utterly unconvincing... and that is why I don't believe. 

 

 

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 Don't believe just because I say so, look into it though if you see merit outside of your previous conclusions.

 

Oh don't worry, I learned the hard lesson about not just believing a book or a preacher cause they say so... because it ain't so.

 

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 That would be my most stretched hope in this conversation outside of just talking because people should be able to talk to others without the conversation lowering to a preemptive assault on the other person.  I other words, I think you guys need your views challenged in a civil conversation so that you know you don't have to try and cause a reaction or push the buttons in an uncivil manner, when you meet a Christian or anyone else with an established but different view.  This might not apply to all of you,mouth it dies to at least a few of you here.

 

I largely agree with your sentiment here, but I also understand some of my fellow Ex Christians and the harsher mode of communications they may employ. A lot of shit gets dished out to  ex Christians, a lot. Not just in conversations like these, but in everyday life. Some of this shit is in abhorrent form such as people telling you to your face you cannot possibly be a moral person etc. There's only so much shit a person can take before they dispense with pleasantries and tell you how it is. Not excusing bad behavior, but explaining why it may occur... more often than not in my experience as a response to arseholery from the theist.

 

Ok... side notes over. I will get back to your reply to me earlier.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

These "conversations" with Christians always seem to follow a similar path.  They come here to "talk", but it winds up in them trying to save us, and it all comes to a dead end.