Losing my faith while finding myself

[BarnOwl]

On 2/4/2020 at 11:04 AM, Myrkhoos said:

         First, I personally think it actually is harder and more schizophrenic to be openly gay and Christian than just openly gay and other things as secular of some sort.

Exactly. That’s not a life I would want to live, constantly trying to justify my interpretation of scripture to others and to myself.

 

I want my life to make sense in some way, and as you said, being an openly gay Christian is way more complicated than just being a Christian.

 

As for your comments on the afterlife. One pattern I’m finding in Christianity is that the real reason for belief isn’t evidence or experience. It’s this idea that the more we devote our earthly lives to God, the more rewarded we are in Heaven. Then, every question or doubt you have in response is essentially answered with this blanket statement of faith, and that trusting that faith means you don’t get into heaven.

 

Essentially, to get into heaven you have to believe the word of regular people, since there’s nothing pointing to any evidence that God himself said these things. The entire faith is based on trusting the words of men and if you don’t trust them, then you don’t get into heaven. They literally have you trapped in from both sides, because even doubting it could be seen as a lack of faith that results in not getting in.

 

On 2/4/2020 at 2:11 PM, TABA said:

 

Hi Joseph,

 

Well I think you've found that community here.  This is a great place to be, where you can say what's on your mind and be among supportive people, including some who have been in places very much like yours, with regard to both religion and sexuality.

 

You've clearly taken a few steps along the road to deconversion.  It doesn't mean that you inevitably continue in the same direction.  This will very likely sort itself out in your mind, but it does take time.  Even for those of us who ended up without any god-belief whatsoever, it wan't a smooth, straight line.  Sometimes faith on the one hand and reason/skepticism on the other are at work at the same time, and in conflict with each other.  This can cause confusion and anguish for a while, but for most people it does resolve itself with one side of the argument winning out.  When faith wins, the partial deconversion process is reversed, either all the way back to some version of Christianity or maybe to a broader kind of god-belief.  For me and the other Ex-Christians, faith eventually faded away to nothing.  I would encourage you to stay around, to read, to ask questions and enjoy being among people who accept you as you are.  Welcome!

 

- TABA

Reading is exactly what I’ve been doing, and quite a bit of it. I definitely am enjoying the atmosphere of openness here - it’s refreshing after living in the church where even bringing up these ideas is seen as the work of the devil.

 

I was actually talking with mom yesterday a little bit about how I felt there were inconsistencies in the Bible. Her response was that Satan was finding the chinks in my faith and that if I go looking for inconsistencies in the Bible, of course I’ll find them.

 

It just made me realize how closed of people of faith are to any open discussion by comparison to people on these forums for example.

[BarnOwl]

On 2/4/2020 at 2:48 PM, ficino said:

Welcome, BarnOwl! I too like your screen name, especially since I used to be an avid birder.

 

Like you, I struggled to reconcile being Christian with being gay. Eventually the injustice of God as depicted by Christianity, and the failure of NT promises to come true as the NT indicates they should, drove me out of the religion. Later on I came to see how flawed is the evidential basis it rests on.

Thank you. It took me a while to work through your testimony, but it was worth it. I identified with your testimony in so many ways that it will definitely be something that I come back to and read again as I work through things myself.

 

I’m just so glad that this isn’t something that I have to go through alone. I’ve been doing it alone since I was 14 just handling the idea of being gay and the thought of having to go through losing my faith alone was terrifying. I’ve thankfully not been a suicidal thinker, but I can attest that the idea of doing this alone as well almost didn’t seem worth the effort.

 

So again, thank you. I feel a lot more hope and less alone than I have in a while just from reading your testimony.

[BarnOwl]

23 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

Welocme aboard, Joseph! 

 

I see you're making new friends already. We have something of a unique community of ex christians going on here as you can see. Here for the taking. 

Thanks! I’m truly looking forward to it.

[♦ ficino ♦]

9 hours ago, BarnOwl said:

 Trust me, I’ve done months of research to see if there was any chance that the scriptures could be safely reinterpreted to allow for homosexuality, but I found they just don’t. If I’m going to be a Christian, then I’m not going to be one that picks and chooses which parts I want to live by.

 

 

Hi BarnOwl, about scripture: have you looked into the question, what does Paul denounce as the sexual partnerings of "their females" in Romans 1:26? There is good reason to think that he is denouncing, not female-female sex but female-male anal or oral sex. A lot has been written on this problem and on how it's not legitimate to infer from "and likewise the males" that the sin of the females in the preceding verse is that they pick same-sex partners. This is the only Bible verse that can be claimed to denounce whom we today call lesbians, and if in fact it's denouncing women for having non-procreative sex with men, then there is no anti-lesbian verse in the Bible. 

 

From THAT, if true, it follows that Paul has no conception of homosexuality as such, diversified into male-male and female-female expressions. And I think that conclusion is quite sound. The notion of homosexual orientation is hardly visible in antiquity. It makes much more sense to suppose that Paul is working from prohibitions in the Torah, where it's forbidden for a male to have anal intercourse with a male but nothing is said about female-female. 

 

If you haven't looked at it, it's instructive to read the Responsum of the Conservative Jewish Movement on the question, should they allow same-sex marriage. After years of debate, the Conservative Jewish movement decided to allow it with the proviso that two men who marry shouldn't have anal sex. That's because the Conservative movement views rabbinic tradition as historically conditioned, and therefore changeable, but they view biblical prohibitions as binding. Reformed and Reconstructionist Jews of course view biblical passages also as historically conditioned, so they allow same sex marriage without the awkward qualification that the Conservatives put on it. Still, I think the Conservative Responsum is good.

 

http://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/sites/default/files/public/halakhah/teshuvot/20052010/dorff_nevins_reisner_dignity.pdf

 

https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/sites/default/files/public/halakhah/teshuvot/2011-2020/same-sex-marriage-and-divorce-appendix.pdf

 

 

[Margee]

9 hours ago, BarnOwl said:

Exactly. That’s not a life I would want to live, constantly trying to justify my interpretation of scripture to others and to myself.

 

 

 

I don't have time to post this morning on this issue BarnOwl.... but I am going to  copy and paste this article because this is something so important for you to read in the first book of the bible. I find the article to be hilarious. My gay son and I had a great laugh over this part of Genesis. Read and enjoy the silliness/ridiculous verses coming from the author/storyteller in genesis of the ''all powerful god '': 

.................................................................................................................................

 

 

In Genesis chapter 1, God created every animal with a mate, including man.

So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
~ Genesis 1:27 

But in chapter 2, God does something a little unusual, He creates a mate for every animal except man, and then asks man to choose a mate from the animals!

The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”  Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man… but for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the Lord God… made a woman… and he brought her to the man.
~ Genesis 2:18-22

What the hell was that about!? The Bible doesn’t go into much detail, so I’m just going to imagine the story went down like this…

“Choose ye now a suitable helper from one of my many animal creations,” God ordered in a somber tone. At first Adam was a bit apprehensive. “Surely,” he thought, “This must be the first practical joke! Why else would God make a mate for everyone but me?” But Adam didn’t want to seem rude. After all, he was new at this, and God knew everything about everything.

 

Adam politely shopped around, inspecting all the animals, pretending to fancy some more than others. He paused for a moment by the horse, and pretended to be impressed by its smooth curves and flowing mane. He gave God a small nod as if only to acknowledge His fine work, and God felt proud (indeed, God had worked a second longer on the horse, and was pleased that Adam had taken notice).  (I broke out in hysterics when I read this part)

 

As Adam strolled along, God leaned forward, intensely curious which of His creations Adam would choose to know (yes, in the Biblical sense). Finding no suitable mate, Adam returned to God and sheepishly said, “Uh, yes Lord… all these are really great… very fine work, indeed… but, um… I, I just can’t see myself being with any of of them. May I have something else?” “Something else!?” God roared, “How dare ye object to all I have set before thee! Is my work not sufficient for thee? Have I erred in my judgement? For this request I shall forever curse thee with a mate as demanding as thee, and she shall forever be your undoing.” And with that, Adam fell into a deep sleep.” (More Laughter)

 

All kidding aside, this Genesis story is difficult to believe for several reasons:

 

1. 1. It stands in stark contract to Genesis 1, where Adam and Eve are created as mates from day one… er… day six.
   2. The idea that a perfect creator would, in His perfect garden, ask Adam to choose a partner from the animals, is just… bizarre.
   3. It’s difficult to imagine that God actually had an alternate plan for Adam had he actually chosen to propagate with one of the animals.
   4. The Bible says Adam was a man, so like the other male animals, he must’ve had male genitalia.  What was the point of making only half of a human reproductive system?
   5. It wasn’t fair of God to give Adam an order he knew Adam would have to disobey.

Apologetics meets bestiality

We could try to salvage the story by suggesting that God never actually intended Adam to choose an animal, but instead God wanted Adam to learn for himself that none were suitable. But this still puts Adam in the awkward position of having to question God’s wisdom and instruction (which God could’ve avoided by simply including a woman in the line-up). In fact, the next time Adam questions the soundness of God’s instructions, he gets evicted from Eden!

Perhaps, as Adam ate the forbidden fruit, he thought to himself “Well… God was wrong about the whole animal thing, maybe He’s wrong about this, too.”

A match made in Eden?

“Did you hear something?”  “Ya, it’s probably just God, He likes to watch.”

It does make me wonder… what would’ve happened if Adam had selected one of the animals as a suitable partner? Where would we be today? What would our children look like? Perhaps we men have made a horrible mistake by not choosing an animal helpmate as God instructed. Perhaps, if we had, we’d still be romping around Eden with a beautiful horse, or swan, or lioness!

Conclusion

I think the simple truth is that the storyteller wanted to emphasize how women are a unique fit for men, and that this event never actually took place… because… it’s just too bizarre.

But suggesting that this was not a literal event is a slippery slope; if we say this didn’t happen, then what about other bits? Like the talking snake? Or the 6 day creation? How much of it isn’t true? Did any of it happen at all? It’s safer for the believer to try and find alternate explanations for the story than to doubt its authenticity. But I have yet to hear an explanation that makes this story seem any less awkward.

 

https://500questions.wordpress.com/2011/10/04/22-was-god-really-hoping-adam-would-find-a-suitable-partner-among-the-animals/

 

 

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[Overcame Faith]

12 hours ago, BarnOwl said:

So no, I have been living the past week in a state of high stress and anxiety at the ideas I’ve been considering. I know that I am either choosing to leave my faith or choosing to bare my cross.

Then by all means begin the process of bringing a halt to your suffering.  Leave that which is not based in reality for that which is.  Leave that false religion behind you with due haste and we will be here to help bring you through it.

[Aqualung]

21 minutes ago, Overcame Faith said:

Then by all means begin the process of bringing a halt to your suffering.  Leave that which is not based in reality for that which is.  Leave that false religion behind you with due haste and we will be here to help bring you through it.

I second this! I just renounced my faith last month, And the feeling of freedom and liberation that followed was incredible.

I see life in a new perspective now , So much more free and wonderful than before.

 

I think it would be incredibly libertating for you as well BarnOwl, Once you shed those beliefs and all the guilt and shame that goes with them,

You will realize that there is NOTHING wrong with you, And you can be anything you want to be.

 

And we're all here for you each step of the way.

 

Also greetings to a fellow Michigan native.

[BarnOwl]

17 hours ago, ficino said:

Hi BarnOwl, about scripture: have you looked into the question, what does Paul denounce as the sexual partnerings of "their females" in Romans 1:26?

 

I did some research on the Jewish beliefs, that was an interesting read to see how much the Jewish faith has started to accept homosexuality.

 

I could choose to believe in God and believe that God is ok with homosexuality. But I guess I just feel so exhausted, rejected and neglected by my religion that I don’t want to keep making excuses for it the rest of my life. The 6 scriptures on homosexuality are only a small part of the issues I’ve come to have with Bible, although they’re the ones that have caused me personally the most hurt.

 

16 hours ago, Margee said:

 

I don't have time to post this morning on this issue BarnOwl.... but I am going to  copy and paste this article because this is something so important for you to read in the first book of the bible. I find the article to be hilarious. My gay son and I had a great laugh over this part of Genesis. Read and enjoy the silliness/ridiculous verses coming from the author/storyteller in genesis of the ''all powerful god '': 

................................................................................................................................ A

 

A very interesting read, as well. I never considered God asking Adam to pick a mate from the animals to be a serious question.

 

But then, I’ve felt for years that the Biblical creation story is essentially a Jewish myth anyways, an explanation to children on how the world was created in ancient times. Today, it should only be treated as literary reading, not factual evidence of something greater.

 

Even so, I do recognize arguments that could be made for homosexuality from a Biblical perspective. You both have mentioned a couple, and there are some I’ve found during my own re-reading of the Bible. Yet, I just feel like I’m using those reasons in order to avoid confronting my beliefs, whichI don’t want to do.

[BarnOwl]

14 hours ago, Overcame Faith said:

Then by all means begin the process of bringing a halt to your suffering.  Leave that which is not based in reality for that which is.  Leave that false religion behind you with due haste and we will be here to help bring you through it.

 

14 hours ago, AyahuascaPhoenix said:

I second this! I just renounced my faith last month, And the feeling of freedom and liberation that followed was incredible.

I see life in a new perspective now , So much more free and wonderful than before.

 

I think it would be incredibly libertating for you as well BarnOwl, Once you shed those beliefs and all the guilt and shame that goes with them,

You will realize that there is NOTHING wrong with you, And you can be anything you want to be.

 

And we're all here for you each step of the way.

 

Also greetings to a fellow Michigan native.

I’m not even sure how to stop believing if I wanted to. It doesn’t seem like something I could just turn off. Despite everything, I still feel a lot of connection with my faith.

 

And hello, as well  How are you enjoying this week of Michigan weather? lol

[Overcame Faith]

BarnOwl,

 

It’s the God of the Bible you are having a difficult time with.  Frankly, I must say that taking the Bible as a whole, I think one must really jump through some difficult theological hoops to find the God of that book sympathetic to homosexuality.  Some do it and I am glad that they can remain a part of the Christian faith if that makes them happy.  But to me, the negative passages in the Bible toward homosexuality demonstrates its human (not divine) origins because the Biblical view does not take into account the strong evidence that people do not choose to be gay any more than others chooses to be straight.  People are the way they are, like some are left handed and most are right handed.  It’s not a choice, it’s who they are.

 

In short, if you long for spirituality, don’t look for it in the Bible.  Look for it deep within yourself.  Meditate on it, think on it, try to find it because it is there in you (and all of us though expressed differently from person to person).

[nontheistpilgrim]

Just my two-pennyworth.

There is a single verse in the Bible that appears to condemn homosexuality. The rest of the texts (and they are few and far between) used by Christians to condemn homosexuality are about sexual promiscuity and prostitution and also the lack of hospitality (Sodom).

[Myrkhoos]

32 minutes ago, nontheistpilgrim said:

Just my two-pennyworth.

There is a single verse in the Bible that appears to condemn homosexuality. The rest of the texts (and they are few and far between) used by Christians to condemn homosexuality are about sexual promiscuity and prostitution and also the lack of hospitality (Sodom).

Ok , I was part of a tradition that puts higher emphasis on tradition and the interpretation of the church fathers than the text itself. It sees the text as a product of tradition , as in the oral transmission and continuity of the community of the revelation of the Holy Spirit. So probably that is why I still think of christianity in terms of its tradition more than the text. So in the EO tradition and the catholic ones which have the greatest argument for historical continuity homosexuality was and is obviously seen as a sin agains the nature of man I will leave it at that as I am not an expert on ancient languages. There is a clear commentary on that verse in Paul by revered EO bishop and saint from the 4th century John Chrysostom. 

      To say Paul was not "aware" of the modern ideas of homosexuality which have not that much science behind them  anyway but a whole of rhetoric( like many other talks about ethics anyway)- no gay gene discovered, no clear neurological findings as even said by gay writer Douglas Murray -  this idea is plain false. He thought we were BORN with evil tendencies in our soul of which homosexuality is a small subset. He thought idolatry and stealing was the sign of the same fallen nature. The argument well why do same people experience same sex attraction if God does not want that is a no brainer for a christian - fallen nature of man. Also the influences of the devil. So thinking it is ok is , at least, a clean break with most christian tradition as far you can know. And again look at the other abrahamic religions , judaism and islam in their most traditional religious form. The same condemnation of homosexuality. I mean if this does not tell you the general view of christianity on the subject and the " acceptance " of homosexuality is a modern thing I do not know what will. But that is not even the issue at hand. I started a thread on interpretation and people have twisyed the scriptures to say anything they want. Putting in gay rights would be a minor variation compared to other things.  So I will remain silent on the subject on this thread. I am sure there are entire books on the subject anyway.

      And I think you are interested in the main things not the minor ones. If not you would already have probably searched and went to a gay friendly church. And I do say it is a good thing first to check the basic stuff and then the rest. But hey , churches have split off because of the gregorian calendar. So much minor stuff have caused great ruptures it seems. :). 

     I mean you could look up the nicene creed and say : what of this I believe? 

     Deconversion is a wildly different process. There are similarities but some people feel free then aftr a while depressed some the exact opposite. Or none. So does conversion feel.different.

[Myrkhoos]

By the way,  Just because scientific knowledge is lacking is not necesarilly an invitation or confirmation to do something. People did not know about sperm , dna , embriology to the level of  now but they still procreated massively. I say this because I did not want that statement to be taken as anti anything. Things in reality tend to be more blurry and grey than we would like. But activists in many areas seem to be filled with  fervor than they are with knowledge. Like many religious people. So it is a good idea to be aware of that ,  regardless of the area , religious or not. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I believe the gay issues came out of an early survival issue, and was reason for "God's" command to multiply and replenish the earth.  But it is bigger than just a command from god.  The way your tribe survives when you are at war, is to have a large army.  So it is urgent that you have as many kids as possible, especially males to do the fighting.  Waring male heros came into vogue, and tradition was formed, which lives until today, down to tough football hero's.  And the glorifying of war heros and macho males.

 

But back to the homosexual issue.  Having kids was so Important that if sex did not produce children, it was sinful.  Or "missing the mark",  which was the original meaning of sin.  Therefore birth control is also considered sinfull.  In a sense, children were a valuable commodity, and for eons were considered property, as were women.  

 

And as a side issue, the rich, powerful conservative corporate people who want to sell their products, need more people to buy their products.  Birth control, abortions, and gays do not produce more consumers.  And the lack of war cuts into the sale of war items they produce that makes them more money.  It is an extremely profitable business. It is all a huge cycle that keeps the rich and powerful,  rich and powerful.  And is part of the reason some are so quick to lead us into war.  And many of these are "christians."  Or at least pretend to be and use the traditions to further their agenda.  Does this make sense?  Or am I just another conspiracy theorists? 

 

I kinda got side tracked, but maybe it helps to understand how the objection to gays came about.

[TABA]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

 

And as a side issue, the rich, powerful conservative corporate people who want to sell their products, need more people to buy their products.  Birth control, abortions, and gays do not produce more consumers.  And the lack of war cuts into the sale of war items they produce that makes them more money.  It is an extremely profitable business. It is all a huge cycle that keeps the rich and powerful,  rich and powerful.  And is part of the reason some are so quick to lead us into war.  And many of these are "christians."  Or at least pretend to be and use the traditions to further their agenda.  Does this make sense?  Or am I just another conspiracy theorists? 

 

 

In fairness, I think most people who oppose abortion and contraception etc do so for sincere reasons of conscience, or at least obedience to the teachings of their churches.  There might be some with financial motives, but there are probably some people who deconvert because they don’t want to tithe anymore.  We can disagree with people without assuming their motivations are evil or selfish. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

2 hours ago, TABA said:

 

In fairness, I think most people who oppose abortion and contraception etc do so for sincere reasons of conscience, or at least obedience to the teachings of their churches. 

 

 

I totally agree.  My point is that these traditions and commandments which produced our conscience are rooted in an ancient battle for survival.  It is much older than modern day religion. There is no God that just grabbed these ideas out of the sky.

 

 Think about it.  What is it that we hold so dear?  Our lives.  Our families.  Our nations.   Our jobs, etc, etc.  And what do we have to do to keep all this going?  Have babies!  Otherwise, we eventually cease to exist.  That is at the very core of our existance.  Early primitive thinkers saw this and said , HAVE MORE BABIES!!  The thinking became tradition, and that became church doctrine.  Another aside.  The Catholic church is loosing ground In the modern world.  They are gaining ground in less "developed" societies that have more children, and doing what they can to encourage more babies and grow their own group.  Otherwise they are loosing power.  

 

But the reality in the modern world is that we could eventually have more babies than the world can support. And no longer need large numbers of soldiers to win wars.  So would the logical conclusion be that it is now okay to be gay, masturbate, and use birth control? 

 

I believe if you dig deep enough, you can find logical reasons for at least some religious teaching.  It wasn't all just grabbed out of mid air by self appointed gurus. 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I might add that I believe that at least some of the rich and powerful do not personally believe or follow church doctrine, (or the Fellowship, (or Family) agenda) but recognize that it promotes their profits, and outwardly back it.  But that is in another thread, and off hand I don't remember which thread. 

Edit.

The thread is, "An atheist abroad" in "ex-christian life."  And is actually a side issue there.  HA!  Which I am famous for, but all this stuff seems to related to many issues.

[Margee]

BarnOwl, What a great thread. You got some really good things to think about. Everyone on this thread is very aware that most fundamentalist churches believe that homosexuality is a sin. Some are 'softer' on the issue which has been stated on this thread. Also it has been stated for you to not rush or push anything. Go slow. Day by day you will ''see'' something that makes sense to you (remember, you are now forming your ''New World View'') and you will be able to slowing fit the puzzle pieces together. And we can help you do that.

 

I continued to go to church for quite some time even while I was questioning everything and it was scary for me because  I didn't know WHAT to believe anymore??? I was in agony. This deconversion is not easy for some people. It wasn't for me. Losing my faith was the single most heart-breaking experience of my life. I WANTED there to be a god. Even when I joined here, I wanted someone to tell me there was a god! So do not feel alone in this journey. You are with people who really do understand the cognitive dissonance you  and your brain are going through.

 

Speaking of sin, we better hope that every single soul on the face of this earth is covered under the blood of Jesus! It ain't just homosexuality!! 

 

Relax. It will all come together for you. go do something fun! (hug)

...................................................................................................

 

The Official List of Sins (New Testament)

Here, as laid out by the Sin book, are the 124 sins listed in the new testament (in alphabetical order). Definitions will accompany those that are not self-evident. Though I may edit it somewhat, all definitions are taken straight from the pamphlet. For those who are interested in context, the pamphlet lists the source of each. I will not list them here, but if you want to know email me. I'll let you know whatever information you need to look it up.

Anyway, get out paper and a pencil and see how you measure up!

1. Abusers of Self: Self polluters, having unnatural lusts

2. Adultery (Note: Only for those who have been married)

3. Anger

4. Backbiters: Those whospeak evil of those who are absent

5. Banqueting: A drinking party

6. Becoming a Stumbling Block to a Weak Brother Through Our Liberty: Taking liberty to do things without thinking of the effect on a weaker brother's conscience.

7. Being Angry With One's Brother: Expressing unkind thought or action toward others

8. Bitterness

9. Blasphemy

10. Boasting

11. Brawling

12. Brother Going to Law Against Brother: No definition given, so I'll wing it. Bringing legal action against another. If someone has a better definition, please let me know.

13. Burying our Talents: Not making wise use of what God gave us

14. Calling One's Brother A Fool: Ridiculing another

15. Chambering: Unmarried people living and sleeping together

16. Clamor: Loud, continued noises

17. Complaining

18. Contentious:Quarrelsome

19. Corrupt Communications:Unprofitable or impure language

20. Covenant Breakers: Lightly breaking a solemn or legal pact.

21. Covetousness

22. Craftiness: Cunningness

23. Debate

24. Deceit

25. Defiling the Body

26. Defraud

27. Denying Christ

28. Desiring the Praise of Men: Doing things to gain praise.

29. Despiteful

30. Dishonesty

31. Disobedience to Parents

32. Divisions: Forming splits or schisms in groups

33. Divorce

34. Double Tongued: Making insincere statements

35. Drunkenness

36. Eating the Bread, or Drinking The Lord's Cup Unworthily: Taking communion while living in sin

37. Effeminate: Unmanly or womanish man.

38. Emulations: Ambition to excel

39. Envy

40. Evil Concupiscence: Longing or desire for forbidden things.

41. Evil Eye: Having selfish motives

42. Evil Thoughts: Worthless, injurious, or depraved thoughts

43. Extortion

44. Fathers Provoking Children to Wrath: Frustrating children through harsh treatment and/or failure to communicate.

45. Fearful: Discouraged, anxious, faithless

46. Filthiness

47. Filthy Lucre: Recieving personal gain through unrighteousness.

48. Finding Faults With Others While Having a Greater Fault Ourself

49. Foolishness

50. Foolish talking : Silliness.

51. Giving False Witness

52. Fornication

53. Giving Offense: Causing another to fall spiritually by our example.

54. Greediness

55. Guile: Deceit

56. Haters of God

57. Hatred

58. Having Evil Treasures in the Heart: (The definition doesn't make any more sense).

59. Having Pleasure in Them That Do Things Worthy of Death: Enjoying the company of sinners.

60. Hearing the Sayings of Christ, but Not Following Them

61. Heresies: Religious opinion different from established Scripture.

62. Highmindedness: Arrogant

63. Hypocrisy

64. Idle Words: Words of no value.

65. Idolatry: Loving someone or something more than God.

66. Implacable: Refusing to be appeased

67. Inordinate Affection: Passion, lust.

68. Inventors of Evil Things: Those who contrive evil ways to satisfy their carnal lusts.

69. Jesting: Talking to make others laugh.

70. Judging

71. Knowing to Do Good, but Doing it Not

72. Lasciviousness: Lustful, wanton, exciting lust.

73. Laying Up Treasures on Earth: Pursuing material success at the expense of spiritual things.

74. Living in Pleasure: Fond of luxury and sensual pleasure/gratification.

75. Lovers of Self

76. Loving Another Person More Than Jesus

77. Lusting After a Woman

78. Lying

79. Maliciousness

80. Malignity: Being harmful or dangerous, bad character.

81. A Man Prophesying or Praying With His Head Covered.

82. Mockery

83. Murder

84. Murmering: Grumbling, secretly complaining

85. Presumptious

86. Pride: Self esteem.

87. Puffed Up: Overestimating of one's ability or knowledge.

88. Purloining

89. Railing: Slander

90. Revellings: Overindulgence at feasts, merrymaking.

91. Rioting

92. Seditions: Stirring up opposition against authority.

93. Self Will: Arrogant

94. Speaking Against the Holy Ghost

95. Sorcery: Practicing magic with aid from evil spirits.

96. Speaking Evil of Dignities: Speaking ill of those to be honored.

97. Stealing

98. Stiff-Necked and Uncircumcised in Hearts and Ears: Obstinate

99. Strife: Quarreling, seeking superiority

100. Striker: Ready to Fight

101. Swearing: To take oath (as in court).

102. Teaching for Doctrine the Commandments of Men: Neglecting God's commandments by manmade interpretation or commandments.

103. Traitors

104. Trusting in Riches

105. Not Entering by the Door Into the Sheepfold: Seeking salvation through means other than the blood of Christ.

106. Unbelief: Lack of faith.

107. Uncleanness

108. Unforgiving Heart

109. Unmerciful

110. Unrighteousness: Moral wrongfulness.

111. Unthankfulness

112. Vain Jangling: Babbling.

113. Variance: Strife

114. Voluntary Humility: False humilty.

115. Wantonness: Lustful, morally unrestrained.

116. Whisperers: Secretly spreading false or slanderous information.

117. Whoremongers:One who associates with whores, a male prostitute.

118. Witchcraft

119. Wickedness: Evil practices, crime.

120. Without Normal Affection: Hardhearted.

121. Without Understanding: Unwise

122. Wrath

123. Woman Cutting Her Hair

124. Woman Prophesying or Praying With Her Head Uncovered

 

http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/psuclass0/sinlist.html

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Sometimes it's not so much about knowing what to believe as it is about believing what you know.

[florduh]

Welcome, BarnOwl. It seems like you're already in good hands here. Sorry I'm late to the welcoming party.

 

And please, people, don't nickname him BO. Thanks. 

[BarnOwl]

On 2/8/2020 at 6:05 PM, Margee said:

BarnOwl, What a great thread. You got some really good things to think about. Everyone on this thread is very aware that most fundamentalist churches believe that homosexuality is a sin. Some are 'softer' on the issue which has been stated on this thread. Also it has been stated for you to not rush or push anything. Go slow. Day by day you will ''see'' something that makes sense to you (remember, you are now forming your ''New World View'') and you will be able to slowing fit the puzzle pieces together. And we can help you do that.

Thank you! I understand the arguments people make for a Christian case for homosexuality. However, after reading multiple books and spending weeks researching the material, I still find that the Bible doesn’t allow for homosexuality.

 

One of the reasons why I also may be closed off to that idea is also because if we are just simply reading the scriptures “incorrectly” then God allowed homosexuals to be pointlessly persecuted by his own church for the past century.

 

For me, I fee like it puts me between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, I can’t bring myself to accept that the way I feel and who I am is inherently wrong. I also can’t believe or accept that God would allow his church to persecute a portion of people in this way if he was ok with it.

 

I’m finding it harder and harder to believe in this faith that I’ve had for so long. Now though, I’m starting to be ok with that. Hey just finished reading “Leaving the Fold” by Dr. Marlene Winell, and that was such an eye opening book. After reading it, I’m now going back through and working through her suggested exercises. It has been very helpful in dealing with the emotions I’ve been having with leaving the faith and other emotional issues I’ve pushed aside in relation to being closeted.

[Margee]

43 minutes ago, BarnOwl said:

 

 

I’m finding it harder and harder to believe in this faith that I’ve had for so long. Now though, I’m starting to be ok with that. Hey just finished reading “Leaving the Fold” by Dr. Marlene Winell, and that was such an eye opening book. After reading it, I’m now going back through and working through her suggested exercises. It has been very helpful in dealing with the emotions I’ve been having with leaving the faith and other emotional issues I’ve pushed aside in relation to being closeted.

And @BarnOwl....this is the key above. Before you can allow yourself to be exactly who you are (a loving, kind gay man) you will have to deal with the whole bible first and that may take some time. But we have experts here who can help you so much to figure out what the books are actually saying.

 

I was one of the lucky ones that the whole entire books of the bible came crashing down once I learned the foolishness of the first book of the bible, Genesis.  Once I read and saw the craziness of it, the whole house of cards came down for me. Because isn't Genesis the first book to read? The story starts there, right? Well once I decided (with the help of Ex-c) that the god of Genesis was a fable, then I knew we were not born in sin and we did not need a savior. I don't need to know one more thing about the rest of the books that 'man' put together and called the bible. The books have some great knowledge but it was all written by man, not god.

 

 But this took me a long time to accept. And I raged for a long time that I had allowed myself to be brainwashed with this story of salvation for years. So you take your time. Things will come together for you because someone is going to say something that makes total sense to you and you will start to become more comfortable with learning some truths about the lie we have been told. You hang in there. We got your back!  You will eventually come to truly love yourself. I can't wait to watch you grow! (hug)

[Myrkhoos]

Well of you cannot accept that what you feel is inherently wrong you sure as hell cannot be a Christian !!! :))This in general not just for the sexuality side.

[Myrkhoos]

And I think you are right about the gay issue. Why would God allow 99 percent of the christian tradition to agree for 2000 years , and more if we count judaism , that homosexuality is wrong and a grave sin if it wasn't? That is the basic argument I had. The argument from tradition, not just from Scripture. That is why I said it seems highly improbable to fit the two together.