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LogicalFallacy

Are you an atheist if you fear hell?

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1 minute ago, freedwoman said:

Fears can be rationalized. A person can have a phobia of big dogs after getting mauled by one. 

 

"Can be rationalized" does not create a requirement that they must be able to be rationalized.

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1 hour ago, freedwoman said:

I guess I just don't understand the atheist mind. Sorry. 🤔

 

Freed, if I (say I'm a Christian) I come up to you and say "God exists, you must believe in order to be saved, blah blah" What would you say to me?

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Guest freedwoman
13 minutes ago, fallenleaf said:

 

This thought isn't clear.  Can you elaborate on what you mean?  I have no idea how to respond to it.

 

Are we talking about irrational fears?  Why would you try to carve out an exception for those irrationalities which are spiritual?  Hell, spiritual fears are the poster child of irrational fears. 

No hun. ALL fears. I used for example the fear of people and dogs. Same with the unknown.

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Guest freedwoman
12 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Freed, if I (say I'm a Christian) I come up to you and say "God exists, you must believe in order to be saved, blah blah" What would you say to me?

I'd say "how do you know?" 

 

How would anyone know for sure? Both atheist or theist? I sure don't know. Who can prove yes or no about this matter?  

 

But it is difficult to believe all of this came from nothing. What was before the nothing?

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I notice that you keep starting your responses with stuff like, "hun, bro, buddy, mate, etc."  It comes off as condescending.  It certainly isn't helping your case.  I think I can speak for most people here when I say that we're pretty good at knowing our position in the hierarchy and little stuff like that doesn't threaten it.

 

I still don't understand your point.  Are you now claiming that people who are afraid of dogs can't be atheists?  You don't need to answer that.  We both know it's silly.  But, it also shows how silly your other claim is.

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19 minutes ago, fallenleaf said:

 

"Can be rationalized" does not create a requirement that they must be able to be rationalized.

Why not though? There has to be some sort of trigger behind the fear? Known or unknown.

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Just now, freedwoman said:

Why not though? There has to be some sort of trigger behind the fear? Known or unknown.

 

Are you claiming that there is no trigger?  There is most certainly a trigger.

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Guest freedwoman
3 minutes ago, fallenleaf said:

I notice that you keep starting your responses with stuff like, "hun, bro, buddy, mate, etc."  It comes off as condescending.  It certainly isn't helping your case.  I think I can speak for most people here when I say that we're pretty good at knowing our position in the hierarchy and little stuff like that doesn't threaten it.

 

I still don't understand your point.  Are you now claiming that people who are afraid of dogs can't be atheists?  You don't need to answer that.  We both know it's silly.  But, it also shows how silly your other claim is.

Nope. I'm merely giving examples. Like you all are. Why are my examples silly and yours or anyone elses not silly?

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Guest freedwoman
2 minutes ago, fallenleaf said:

 There is most certainly a trigger.

Yup. Exactly. Thanks.

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What do you think you have proved?  That trigger is not belief.  Having an irrational fear of hell does not mean you believe in god.  It doesn't mean that in the slightest.

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18 minutes ago, freedwoman said:

I'd say "how do you know?" 

 

How would anyone know for sure? Both atheist or theist? I sure don't know. Who can prove yes or no about this matter?  

 

But it is difficult to believe all of this came from nothing. What was before the nothing?

 

I know  in my heart God is real. He has revealed it in his word.  Also I have had God speak to me directly.

 

The  bible says believe on him and be saved.

  • Haha 1

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Anyway.  I think I am done discussing this with you.  I wasn't responding to you, anyway.  I was responding for those who will read this.  So they realize that your position is indefensible and that they don't need to worry that they're not really atheists because they are still working through some irrational fears.  Even if someone was to really believe in hell (which a fear of hell does not equate to a belief in it), they could still be an atheist if they don't believe in god.  Those are two different beliefs.  Both happen to be false beliefs, but belief in one does not require that people believe in the other.

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1 minute ago, fallenleaf said:

Anyway.  I think I am done discussing this with you.  I wasn't responding to you, anyway.  I was responding for those who will read this.  So they realize that your position is indefensible and that they don't need to worry that they're not really atheists because they are still working through some irrational fears.  Even if someone was to really believe in hell (which a fear of hell does not equate to a belief in it), they could still be an atheist if they don't believe in god.  Those are two different beliefs.  Both happen to be false beliefs, but belief in one does not require that people believe in the other.

Nope.

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Guest freedwoman
2 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

I know  in my heart God is real. He has revealed it in his word.  Also I have had God speak to me directly.

 

The  bible says believe on him and be saved.

The Bible? What about the Quran? 

Or any other religious texts?

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25 minutes ago, freedwoman said:

The Bible? What about the Quran? 

Or any other religious texts?

 

They are all wrong. False religions. [Insert slew of reasons why everything else is wrong].

 

Right this conversation is not really getting at what I waned to which was your not understanding the atheist mindset. (Strange term, but anyhoo)

 

So if our positions were reversed I wouldn't say I don't know to God exists. I'd say I don't believe you. Then they might say well how do you know there are no Gods? And I'd say, I don't know in an absolute sense, but I don't believe any exist due to the lack of confirming evidence for the god claim proposition.

 

Let me try another track. Do you believe unicorns exist? The flying spaghetti monster? (May his noodles touch thee) The whatchmacallit from whoflungdung?

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2 hours ago, freedwoman said:

How? If Hell really doesn't exist and atheists some how know for certain it doesn't then why fear going there? Phobias can be rationalized. I was abused and bullied my whole life. Now I suffer with Anthropophobia. Maybe that certain color triggers your friend? There could be some rationality behind it?

Not ALL phobias can be rationalized. The definition of phobia is "an extreme or irrational fear. .  ." And sure maybe there is some deep dark reason for a person to develop a phobia. However, if someone acknowledges that it is silly and irrational to have a fear, yet is unable to control the emotion, the emotion is separate from the belief.

Lets use a different analogy. Lets pretend I fear an invasion of alien monsters from the moon. Lets pretend I grew up before space exploration and I was indoctrinated to believe all the mythology about aliens on the moon poised to invade earth. Lets suppose later in life,  science revealed there is no life on the moon and I came to realize my fear was unfounded. But my childhood indoctrination still haunts me. So I develop a phobia that stems from childhood indoctrination. That doesnt mean that deep down I believe there are aliens on the moon ready to attack. It means I cant shake an irrational fear.

As a side note, when someone tells me what they believe or feel, I take that at face value. In other words, I believe they are telling the truth. It would be very presumptuous and insulting of me to tell anyone what was going on in their own mind and heart. So if an atheist tells me they don't believe in any gods, but contunue to struggle with an irrational fear of hell, I have no reason or authority to correct them.

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Some people just like to argue. I'll leave it at that since it's a dead end.

 

Enjoy!

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Guest freedwoman

Spaghetti can't fly so no. As for unicorns no. There is no such animal. But can I prove they don't exist? No dear I can't. Just like us humans can't prove God or Hell don't exist. 

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Guest freedwoman
8 minutes ago, freshstart said:

Not ALL phobias can be rationalized. The definition of phobia is "an extreme or irrational fear. .  ." And sure maybe there is some deep dark reason for a person to develop a phobia. However, if someone acknowledges that it is silly and irrational to have a fear, yet is unable to control the emotion, the emotion is separate from the belief.

Lets use a different analogy. Lets pretend I fear an invasion of alien monsters from the moon. Lets pretend I grew up before space exploration and I was indoctrinated to believe all the mythology about aliens on the moon poised to invade earth. Lets suppose later in life,  science revealed there is no life on the moon and I came to realize my fear was unfounded. But my childhood indoctrination still haunts me. So I develop a phobia that stems from childhood indoctrination. That doesnt mean that deep down I believe there are aliens on the moon ready to attack. It means I cant shake an irrational fear.

As a side note, when someone tells me what they believe or feel, I take that at face value. In other words, I believe they are telling the truth. It would be very presumptuous and insulting of me to tell anyone what was going on in their own mind and heart. So if an atheist tells me they don't believe in any gods, but contunue to struggle with an irrational fear of hell, I have no reason or authority to correct them.

Have you not read my previous posts? I said I do NOT have the authority to claim others are anything or not. It's not up to me. It's up to them and if they really follow the definition they claim. Not me. Please read my posts.

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Guest freedwoman
3 minutes ago, florduh said:

Some people just like to argue. I'll leave it at that since it's a dead end.

 

Enjoy!

Not me. I'm just stating my thoughts and people aren't understanding me and making false accusations about me. I feel forced to have to repeat myself in different ways so they get it. 

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Guest freedwoman

Okay so you wanna be called atheists, fine. That's cool with me. No problem. You are atheists then. I respect that. Just like I respect transgenders terms. Also if someone wanted me to call them a mailbox I would call them a mail box.

I'm done here too.

Later peeps.

✌️🤝

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7 minutes ago, freedwoman said:

Spaghetti can't fly so no. As for unicorns no. There is no such animal. But can I prove they don't exist? No dear I can't. Just like us humans can't prove God or Hell don't exist. 

 

So in wrapping up, this is all an atheist is basically.

 

God is largely a contradictory proposition, with no evidence for existence, and evidence showing that's it's simply a human made concept. Like a unicorn, no we cannot prove the negative, but in the face of lack of evidence we don't believe they exist (Gods or unicorns... or the FSM)

 

So hopefully this exchange has gone some way into clearing up the intersection between no belief (atheist) and not knowing (agnostic).

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5 minutes ago, freedwoman said:

Okay so you wanna be called atheists, fine. That's cool with me. No problem. You are atheists then.

 

A final point - it's not a case of what I "want". It is what I am by definition. (And I warrant many others even though they don't actively label themselves as such)

 

I am an atheist for the same reason I am a human - I simply fall into the definitions that make me thus.

 

 

Regarding the actual thread subject, I've largely come over to the side that yes you can still be an atheist even if you still fear hell due to the reasons arguments many have given here wherein fear is not necessarily predicated on belief.

 

And with that, like Florduh, I'm probably done... unless someone comes with a really good point to discuss. Good conversation, thanks for partaking.

 

May the horn of the great unicorn thrust upon thee.

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8 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

A final point - it's not a case of what I "want". It is what I am by definition. (And I warrant many others even though they don't actively label themselves as such)

 

I am an atheist for the same reason I am a human - I simply fall into the definitions that make me thus.

 

Yeah this isn't a choice. It is a fact.  Someone who does not believe in god is an atheist.  My son is an atheist, but he wouldn't call himself that.  He doesn't think about the "official" term of what he is.  He just doesn't believe in god, or really understand why others do.  Yeah, I'm proud of him.

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Guest freedwoman
10 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

May the horn of the great unicorn thrust upon thee.

😂😂😂

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