Can Christianity exist without patriarchy?

[LeiaBryant]

I don't want to think of myself as a enemy of Christianity but I fight against patriarchy in religions. Does that mean I'm a enemy of the cross of Christ ? Is it possible for Christianity to be nonpatriarchal? As a radical feminist am I automatically the enemy of christians? In this thread we discuss whether or not Christianity is inheritly patriarchal.

[TEG]

The bible is inherently patriarchal.  https://cbmw.org/about/danvers-statement/

And anti-homosexual, and all kinds of things.  If christians want to allow women pastors, and welcome gays, they have to consider the bible to be suggestions, not the infallible word of god.  Which is fine by me, and some do; but in the bible belt it is heresy.

[florduh]

29 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

I don't want to think of myself as a enemy of Christianity but I fight against patriarchy in religions. Does that mean I'm a enemy of the cross of Christ ? Is it possible for Christianity to be nonpatriarchal? As a radical feminist am I automatically the enemy of christians? In this thread we discuss whether or not Christianity is inheritly patriarchal.

I get the feminist angle, but there is a hell of a lot more about Christianity that's wrong. Following the rules of most denominational interpretations is no picnic for men, either. Men from ancient societies invented the Abrahamic religions and we should expect the message to reflect their knuckle dragging sentiments. Also, why shouldn't you be an enemy of an oppressive, nonsensical and dangerous religious belief?

[LeiaBryant]

23 minutes ago, florduh said:

I get the feminist angle, but there is a hell of a lot more about Christianity that's wrong. Following the rules of most denominational interpretations is no picnic for men, either. Men from ancient societies invented the Abrahamic religions and we should expect the message to reflect their knuckle dragging sentiments. Also, why shouldn't you be an enemy of an oppressive, nonsensical and dangerous religious belief?

I don't want to be a enemy to religions that are a positive influence in the world. Anything that attacks all religions attacks my new faith too.(Wicca). I am just coming at these problems from my point of view.

[LogicalFallacy]

48 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

I don't want to think of myself as a enemy of Christianity but I fight against patriarchy in religions. Does that mean I'm a enemy of the cross of Christ ? Is it possible for Christianity to be nonpatriarchal? As a radical feminist am I automatically the enemy of christians? In this thread we discuss whether or not Christianity is inheritly patriarchal.

 

Welcome to Ex C Leia

 

Christianity is inherently patriarchal. The old testament which Christianity relies on as its foundation (Never let a Christian get away with saying "but that's the old testament") was written by men in a time where women were largely regarded by their society as chattels. The god of the old testament is a very male god, and not a good male either. He's angry, vengeful, genocidal and so on. The only reference to any female gods in the bible is the writer accidently referencing Asherah which used to be the consort of Yahweh.

 

The closest you can get to a matriarchal figure is Mary, the mother of Jesus (or God if you are Catholic.) And the only reason she was needed is because you need a woman if you are writing about the "virgin shall conceive" verse. A bit hard to put a male in there. However her role was to bring about a MALE saviour.

 

Even in the New Testament Paul specifically commands that women should be silent in church and not hold authority over a man.

 

So yeah, anyone arguing that the bible, and by extension Christianity, is not patriarchal has blinders on in my opinion.

 

Can Christianity be non patriarchal? Well if you don't have the bible as your foundation sure... but then you don't have Christianity do you? So no, it cannot be non patriarchal. Christians can be, however, which is why we now have woman ministers, and gay priests etc despite clear teachings in the bible against this. It's because people recognise that what's in the bible isn't necessarily the best recipe for the best possible world.

 

As for automatically being the enemy of Christians... not necessarily. Christians are people, Christianity is a religion. You can be anti a religion without needing to be anti it's adherent's.

 

 

Are we to assume you are a Christian considering your questions regarding whether you are anti Christianity or not? Though I see in your profile as your God you have a Sumerian Goddess... what's going on there? 

[LeiaBryant]

30 minutes ago, TEG said:

The bible is inherently patriarchal.  https://cbmw.org/about/danvers-statement/

And anti-homosexual, and all kinds of things.  If christians want to allow women pastors, and welcome gays, they have to consider the bible to be suggestions, not the infallible word of god.  Which is fine by me, and some do; but in the bible belt it is heresy.

How do I fight against patriarchy without coming across as fighting Christianity? Note I live in the Bible belt.

[MOHO]

5 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

How do I fight against patriarchy without coming across as fighting Christianity? Note I live in the Bible belt.

You don't.

 

Anything else I can help you with?

[LeiaBryant]

3 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Welcome to Ex C Leia

 

Christianity is inherently patriarchal. The old testament which Christianity relies on as its foundation (Never let a Christian get away with saying "but that's the old testament") was written by men in a time where women were largely regarded by their society as chattels. The god of the old testament is a very male god, and not a good male either. He's angry, vengeful, genocidal and so on. The only reference to any female gods in the bible is the writer accidently referencing Asherah which used to be the consort of Yahweh.

 

The closest you can get to a matriarchal figure is Mary, the mother of Jesus (or God if you are Catholic.) And the only reason she was needed is because you need a woman if you are writing about the "virgin shall conceive" verse. A bit hard to put a male in there. However her role was to bring about a MALE saviour.

 

Even in the New Testament Paul specifically commands that women should be silent in church and not hold authority over a man.

 

So yeah, anyone arguing that the bible, and by extension Christianity, is not patriarchal has blinders on in my opinion.

 

Can Christianity be non patriarchal? Well if you don't have the bible as your foundation sure... but then you don't have Christianity do you? So no, it cannot be non patriarchal. Christians can be, however, which is why we now have woman ministers, and gay priests etc despite clear teachings in the bible against this. It's because people recognise that what's in the bible isn't necessarily the best recipe for the best possible world.

 

As for automatically being the enemy of Christians... not necessarily. Christians are people, Christianity is a religion. You can be anti a religion without needing to be anti it's adherent's.

 

 

Are we to assume you are a Christian considering your questions regarding whether you are anti Christianity or not? Though I see in your profile as your God you have a Sumerian Goddess... what's going on there? 

No I am a ex-christian witch (Wicca), and I live in the heart of the Bible belt. I have a lot of Christian friends that I don't want to lose when I come out of the broom closet with my new faith.(and out of the regular closet too because I'm LGBT )

[LeiaBryant]

1 minute ago, MOHO said:

You don't.

 

Anything else I can help you with?

Well I am looking for a way to do that. I want to keep my Christian friends and fight patriarchy at the same time.

[LogicalFallacy]

29 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

No I am a ex-christian witch (Wicca), and I live in the heart of the Bible belt. I have a lot of Christian friends that I don't want to lose when I come out of the broom closet with my new faith.(and out of the regular closet too because I'm LGBT )

 

Ooohhh… considering the bible explicitly states that "I suffer not a witch to live" you might find your Christian friends will flee if they are a fundamentalist or evangelical strain. Liberal Christians will be less put off by your faith - they tend to be more open minded.

 

[LeiaBryant]

1 minute ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Ooohhh… considering the bible explicitly states that "I suffer not a witch to live" you might find your Christian friends will flee if they are a fundamentalist or evangelical strain. Liberal Christians will be less put off by your faith - they tend to be more open minded.

 

I have cut ties to the fundamentalist ones (I'm ex-NIFB) but I have some Evangelical and a lot of liberal Christian friends. I'm also a radical feminist too. There is a lot people don't know about me.

[florduh]

2 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

I don't want to be a enemy to religions that are a positive influence in the world. Anything that attacks all religions attacks my new faith too.(Wicca). I am just coming at these problems from my point of view.

You didn't quite follow what my post actually said.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

I don't want to be a enemy to religions that are a positive influence in the world.

Are you suggesting that the net result of Christianity throughout its history is positive?

[florduh]

Look, Christianity at it's roots is opposed to women's equality, homosexuality and witches. You'll either become a damn good liar or lose some "friends."  For the sake of your sanity and self esteem I recommend new friends.

[Joshpantera]

What he said^^^^^^^^

[LeiaBryant]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Are you suggesting that the net result of Christianity throughout its history is positive?

It's whole history no clearly not, but at the moment it does less harm than it does good. I can see the good and the bad in it 

[LeiaBryant]

2 hours ago, florduh said:

Look, Christianity at it's roots is opposed to women's equality, homosexuality and witches. You'll either become a damn good liar or lose some "friends."  For the sake of your sanity and self esteem I recommend new friends.

I am just preparing for that, but I hope to come across as friendly and offer them a positive relationship with me.

[midniterider]

6 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

I don't want to think of myself as a enemy of Christianity but I fight against patriarchy in religions. Does that mean I'm a enemy of the cross of Christ ? Is it possible for Christianity to be nonpatriarchal? As a radical feminist am I automatically the enemy of christians? In this thread we discuss whether or not Christianity is inheritly patriarchal.

 

Jesus is male. God is male. The Holy Spirit is...ummm, hell I dont know what it is. 

 

Here's a list of misogyny in the bible. https://ffrf.org/component/k2/item/23729-why-women-need-freedom-from-religion

 

It's possible for Christianity to be non-patriarchal...but I doubt it ever will be. It's also toxic nonsense that causes emotional problems for a lot of people. It's based in fear , guilt and shame. I hope you're able to hang onto some less-fundamental friends but it might be better to find some wiccans if possible.

 

Glad to have another pagan here, btw.

[LeiaBryant]

13 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Jesus is male. God is male. The Holy Spirit is...ummm, hell I dont know what it is. 

 

Here's a list of misogyny in the bible. https://ffrf.org/component/k2/item/23729-why-women-need-freedom-from-religion

 

It's possible for Christianity to be non-patriarchal...but I doubt it ever will be. It's also toxic nonsense that causes emotional problems for a lot of people. It's based in fear , guilt and shame. I hope you're able to hang onto some less-fundamental friends but it might be better to find some wiccans if possible.

 

Glad to have another pagan here, btw.

I glad there are fellow pagans here, I live in the heart of the Bible belt so most of the people here are different flavors of Christianity . I hope the majority of my friends can look past their religion to maintain our friendship. Friendship is magic after all(insert MLP theme song here).

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

It's whole history no clearly not, but at the moment it does less harm than it does good. I can see the good and the bad in it 

Hmmm...

[Joshpantera]

9 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

It's whole history no clearly not, but at the moment it does less harm than it does good. I can see the good and the bad in it 

 

Well, I can see how it's much more watered down now than in the past. In terms of christianity's power has long since peaked and waned. The churches aren't as powerful as they once were.

 

And liberal christianity tends to shy away from things like homosexuality as sin, the existence of hell, and even patriarchy. This is made clear by the existence of liberal christian female clergy, and gay and lesbian ministers that can exist in some of the liberal settings. The bible is demonstrably misogynistic, pro-slavery, anti-homosexual, and patriarchal. But many liberals are content to set that aside and excuse it away in favor of continuing on not in terms of how the bible actually is, but how they think the bible ought to read and then pretend that it does read that way. 

 

The big question I'm looking at is whether or not liberal christianity will eventually wash out the fundies? 

 

It can exist without patriarchy under these sort of "blinders on" liberal conditions. But not so much otherwise. 

[florduh]

1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Well, I can see how it's much more watered down now than in the past. In terms of christianity's power has long since peaked and waned. The churches aren't as powerful as they once were.

 

And liberal christianity tends to shy away from things like homosexuality as sin, the existence of hell, and even patriarchy. This is made clear by the existence of liberal christian female clergy, and gay and lesbian ministers that can exist in some of the liberal settings. The bible is demonstrably misogynistic, pro-slavery, anti-homosexual, and patriarchal. But many liberals are content to set that aside and excuse it away in favor of continuing on not in terms of how the bible actually is, but how they think the bible ought to read and then pretend that it does read that way. 

 

The big question I'm looking at is whether or not liberal christianity will eventually wash out the fundies? 

 

It can exist without patriarchy under these sort of "blinders on" liberal conditions. But not so much otherwise. 

Christianity results from what's in the Bible. Everybody likes to cherry pick, but it still says what it says. Narrow is the gate, women shall remain silent in the church and submit to their husband, suffer not a witch to live, blah, blah, blah. It is an exclusive belief with certain rules and tenets. If you don't believe all that crap then you are not following the religion and you can't honestly just go your own way and declare you are a "liberal" Christian. It seems like identifying as a member of the KKK but not believing in white supremacy so you're just a liberal Klansman. Makes no sense.

[LeiaBryant]

4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Hmmm...

For example my friends in the  Presbyterian church feeding the homeless is good. I don't want to seem against that while fighting patriarchy.

[TruthSeeker0]

17 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

No I am a ex-christian witch (Wicca), and I live in the heart of the Bible belt. I have a lot of Christian friends that I don't want to lose when I come out of the broom closet with my new faith.(and out of the regular closet too because I'm LGBT )

The friends that would drop you because you’re an ex-Christian aren’t actually your friends. That’s what I would call a fake relationship if you have to pretend you’re something that you’re not for acceptance. 

Christianity is patriarchal. 

I don’t believe Christians who do good works and who are motivated to do them because it will give them brownie points to get to heaven, are actually doing it just because they *want* to do it out of the goodness of their own hearts. The fact that people are motivated to do good works for brownie points as part of their religion does not automatically make that religion, or them,  “good.” 

[LeiaBryant]

3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Well, I can see how it's much more watered down now than in the past. In terms of christianity's power has long since peaked and waned. The churches aren't as powerful as they once were.

 

And liberal christianity tends to shy away from things like homosexuality as sin, the existence of hell, and even patriarchy. This is made clear by the existence of liberal christian female clergy, and gay and lesbian ministers that can exist in some of the liberal settings. The bible is demonstrably misogynistic, pro-slavery, anti-homosexual, and patriarchal. But many liberals are content to set that aside and excuse it away in favor of continuing on not in terms of how the bible actually is, but how they think the bible ought to read and then pretend that it does read that way. 

 

The big question I'm looking at is whether or not liberal christianity will eventually wash out the fundies? 

 

It can exist without patriarchy under these sort of "blinders on" liberal conditions. But not so much otherwise. 

 

1 hour ago, florduh said:

Christianity results from what's in the Bible. Everybody likes to cherry pick, but it still says what it says. Narrow is the gate, women shall remain silent in the church and submit to their husband, suffer not a witch to live, blah, blah, blah. It is an exclusive belief with certain rules and tenets. If you don't believe all that crap then you are not following the religion and you can't honestly just go your own way and declare you are a "liberal" Christian. It seems like identifying as a member of the KKK but not believing in white supremacy so you're just a liberal Klansman. Makes no sense.

I half agree with both of you, liberal Christian seem very nonpatriarchy and believe the Bible contains the Word of God but that it has a lot of other stuff to like the traditions of the time it was written in . They seem downright loveable compared to the fundamentalist hell I escaped ,I am even briefly tempted to join them in the case of the local Unitarian Church , yet on the other hand are they really even christians, I wonder if they are now just a social club for people in the community to get together and do stuff to improve the area . At what point do they stop being Christians at all? I want to be allies to these people while fighting patriarchy in religion and I trying to tread the needle between attacking some churches and being friends to others. So are liberal Christians really even Christianity?