Can Christianity exist without patriarchy?

[TruthSeeker0]

18 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

Well I am looking for a way to do that. I want to keep my Christian friends and fight patriarchy at the same time.

Well then I hope you’re OK with pretending that you’re somebody that you’re not. 

[LeiaBryant]

10 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

The friends that would drop you because you’re an ex-Christian aren’t actually your friends. That’s what I would call a fake relationship if you have to pretend you’re something that you’re not for acceptance. 

Christianity is patriarchal. 

I don’t believe Christians who do good works and who are motivated to do them because it will give them brownie points to get to heaven, are actually doing it just because they *want* to do it out of the goodness of their own hearts. The fact that people are motivated to do good works for brownie points as part of their religion does not automatically make that religion, or them,  “good.” 

 Agreed those people are not really my friends, I am just trying to figure out how to break the news gently. Maybe it is patriarchal unless liberal Christians are still really christians . I can see both good and bad in what Christianity does in my community. I want to attack the bad and preserve the good.

[LeiaBryant]

6 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Well then I hope you’re OK with pretending that you’re somebody that you’re not. 

I don't expect to keep all my friends but I hope to keep some if I disclose things in the right way.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

27 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

For example my friends in the  Presbyterian church feeding the homeless is good. I don't want to seem against that while fighting patriarchy.

I'm not asking about a few exceptions here and there.  I'm asking about the overall net result of the christian religion, the impact and influence it has, has had, and presumably will continue to have upon the societies in which it has gained traction.

[Guest freedwoman]

If I could go back in time when the Bible was being written by those abusive oppressive men of God. I would gather my sisters and tell them how in other religions women are revered and of equal status with men. Even warriors. And we would cut their manhood parts off while they are asleep. Sister you can't get around it. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all hate us women and think we're only good for one thing. 

[TruthSeeker0]

3 minutes ago, freedwoman said:

If I could go back in time when the Bible was being written by those abusive oppressive men of God. I would gather my sisters and tell them how in other religions women are revered and of equal status with men. Even warriors. And we would cut their manhood parts off while they are asleep. Sister you can't get around it. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all hate us women and think we're only good for one thing. 

Yup. I dont see how a person could get through reading the Bible and even have to question if Christianity is patriarchal. I read as far as Lot's "lying with his daughters" (isn't it so convenient that the daughters are made out to somehow connive to sleep with their father - what a laugh!). That's as far as I got with my Bible reading before I concluded the garbage wasn't for me  (I did read a summary of the old testament though, which was hard enough in itself). 

At least some of  the fundamentalists beliefs are true to what their holy book states. Liberal xtianity wants to have it both ways with it's cherry picked version. 

[Guest freedwoman]

1 minute ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Yup. I dont see how a person could get through reading the Bible and even have to question if Christianity is patriarchal. I read as far as Lot's "lying with his daughters" (isn't it so convenient that the daughters are made out to somehow connive to sleep with their father - what a laugh!). That's as far as I got with my Bible reading before I concluded the garbage wasn't for me  (I did read a summary of the old testament though, which was hard enough in itself). 

At least some of  the fundamentalists beliefs are true to what their holy book states. Liberal xtianity wants to have it both ways with it's cherry picked version. 

The Bible abuses and oppresses women so much that if a woman kept her vow to god after her father or husband told her she couldn't she was to be taken and lashed 40 times with a whip! How dare she put God first and defy her father or husband and keep her vow! Numbers 31. But if she is widowed or divorced then she must keep her vows!   I learned this in further detail from a Rabbi years ago. He told me that all the laws of the Torah are explainef and expanded upon in the talmud. Then women are expected to suffer and die for Jesus Christ?! Nah. A god that doesn't consider my vows important as a man's authority to take them away is not worth suffering or dying for. 

 

[Joshpantera]

Yeah it makes no sense, and yet we find all of these people professing liberal christian views who try and side step what the bible does say. It pisses off the fundies. And then they go around preaching about how this is a sign of the end times quoting things like, 'as it was in the days of noah, so shall it be when the son of man returns...' And cite liberals ignoring the bible in favor of believing 'their own sinful ways.' I saw a lot of this growing up. The more liberals ignore the bible and put women in charge, allow gays in church, and basically change and integrate with modern society the more they see it as signs of the end. 

 

When in reality it's just a bronze age religion struggling to stay afloat in an ever changing modern world and trying to keep people in the pews by watering down and ignoring the bronze age texts.......

[Guest freedwoman]

1 minute ago, Joshpantera said:

Yeah it makes no sense, and yet we find all of these people professing liberal christian views who try and side step what the bible does say. It pisses off the fundies. And then they go around preaching about how this is a sign of the end times quoting things like, 'as it was in the days of noah, so shall it be when the son of man returns...' And cite liberals ignoring the bible in favor of believing 'their own sinful ways.' I saw a lot of this growing up. The more liberals ignore the bible and put women in charge, allow gays in church, and basically change and integrate with modern society the more they see it as signs of the end. 

 

When in reality it's just a bronze age religion struggling to stay afloat in an ever changing modern world and trying to keep people in the pews by watering down and ignoring the bronze age texts.......

Gosh I know. You can't be a woman of authority if you are a Christian. Plus their can be no such thing as a homosexual Christian.

[Guest freedwoman]

Every time a homosexual Christian tells me it's okay to be gay I respectfully tell them to read Romans 1.

[TEG]

It almost sounds like you want to hold onto christianity in some way.  There are other christianities besides the orthodox one that was established by the Roman empire.  The gnostics believed that the creator was a flawed, inferior being, jealous and vengeful, and that is why the world, and most of the old testament, are so messed up.  People are little sparks of divine stuff trapped in matter, and we do not belong here.  Jesus was the incarnate Logos, one of the aeons who emanate from the One, the ultimate being of the universe, and came to earth to break the spell that traps us here and show us the way back to our spiritual existence.  It turns the bible on its head; for example, in genesis, god lies to Adam and Eve about the tree, and the serpent (who is described as the cleverest animal, not satan) tells them the truth; god then throws a tantrum and curses mankind, revealing what kind of being he really is.  It explains some of Paul’s obscure passages, such as being caught up to the third heaven, the list of powers and principalities, and the reference to “the god of this world.”  You can run with this to your heart’s content; for example, was Krishna a similar incarnate being?  Note that Jesus left us the holy spirit, which he described as the paraclete or comforter/advocate; is he/she another aeon that stayed behind to help us?  Were some of the prophets also messengers from the divine realm?  (Enoch was particularly revered.)  The gnostics called the established Roman church the false church, and there is evidence that gnosticism goes back to the beginning of christianity.  If I wanted to be a christian again, or to incorporate Jesus into my own brand of syncretistic paganism, I would probably go with something like this.

(One fly in the ointment:  one of the main gnostic books, the gospel of Thomas, ends with a grotesquely misogynistic verse, almost like it was tacked on.  There are other gnostic works that describe Mary Magdalene as a favored disciple.)

[florduh]

"I'm a devout Catholic but I think divorce is necessary sometimes and there are cases where abortion should be allowed." 

 

Everybody makes up their own religion. Those who admit it are rare.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

My guess is, that if you tell your friends you are pagan, witch, etc. they will tune you out immediately.   Best wishes in fighting patriarchs.

[TruthSeeker0]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

My guess is, that if you tell your friends you are pagan, witch, etc. they will tune you out immediately.   Best wishes in fighting patriarchs.

Agreed. If it were me I'd expect "Satan has your heart" and they'd drop me immediately. Speaking as an ex xtian who also dropped my friend when she came out gay, (I was still xtian then) I can say it forced me to examine my beliefs, that was too difficult for me, and so I dropped her. Not everyone will do that but from where I come from they are very few and far between. 

[LogicalFallacy]

8 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

The big question I'm looking at is whether or not liberal christianity will eventually wash out the fundies? 

 

Probably not. I've have seen some research into this kind of question and what seems to happen is that as a religion gets more liberal it tends to start washing people out entirely (#Ex-Christian) But then what happens is that a small vocal core goes in the opposite direction and basically entrenches in their fundamentalism. It's thought overtime, because of the washout of the majority liberals, that a religion could then become majority fundamentalist... even though total numbers are lower that previously. So you'd end up with a very powerful vocal fundie majority religion.

 

Kind of a frightening thought... which makes me think maybe its better to just keep the liberal Christians as Christians to counter any rising fundie element? 

[midniterider]

4 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

For example my friends in the  Presbyterian church feeding the homeless is good. I don't want to seem against that while fighting patriarchy.

 

Put on your pentacle and hand out some sandwiches to the homeless. Let your Presby friends know what you're doing. 

[LeiaBryant]

2 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Put on your pentacle and hand out some sandwiches to the homeless. Let your Presby friends know what you're doing. 

That's a prefect idea , Thanks.

[midniterider]

4 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

 

I half agree with both of you, liberal Christian seem very nonpatriarchy and believe the Bible contains the Word of God but that it has a lot of other stuff to like the traditions of the time it was written in . They seem downright loveable compared to the fundamentalist hell I escaped ,I am even briefly tempted to join them in the case of the local Unitarian Church , yet on the other hand are they really even christians, I wonder if they are now just a social club for people in the community to get together and do stuff to improve the area . At what point do they stop being Christians at all? I want to be allies to these people while fighting patriarchy in religion and I trying to tread the needle between attacking some churches and being friends to others. So are liberal Christians really even Christianity?

 

A less-a**holish Christianity is a better Christianity, whether it's 'official' Christianity or not. 

 

If liberal Christianity somehow generates a smaller core group of a**hole fundy Christians, I think that's a win. 

[Joshpantera]

5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Probably not. I've have seen some research into this kind of question and what seems to happen is that as a religion gets more liberal it tends to start washing people out entirely (#Ex-Christian) But then what happens is that a small vocal core goes in the opposite direction and basically entrenches in their fundamentalism. It's thought overtime, because of the washout of the majority liberals, that a religion could then become majority fundamentalist... even though total numbers are lower that previously. So you'd end up with a very powerful vocal fundie majority religion.

 

Kind of a frightening thought... which makes me think maybe its better to just keep the liberal Christians as Christians to counter any rising fundie element? 

 

This is sort of what Price was talking about. That the liberals in christianity and islam have prompted the more fundamentalist elements to rise up and try and stop what they see as a corruption. But his view is that it's a sign of the end. Like death twitches and grasps for air from a dying beast. 

 

As a neo pagan witch trying to walk a fine line with christians and sort of pander to them to try and further friendship, I line up with everyone else who thinks it's a bad idea. And potentially dangerous. 

[TruthSeeker0]

1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

 

This is sort of what Price was talking about. That the liberals in christianity and islam have prompted the more fundamentalist elements to rise up and try and stop what they see as a corruption. But his view is that it's a sign of the end. Like death twitches and grasps for air from a dying beast. 

 

As a neo pagan witch trying to walk a fine line with christians and sort of pander to them to try and further friendship, I line up with everyone else who thinks it's a bad idea. And potentially dangerous. 

What I'm wondering is, why not seek secular humanist non believers as friends? Even in the Bible belt there's some. I let go of all my xtian friends - I recognized that I'm just giving them power to potentially hurt me by attempting to stay friends, and wasn't willing to risk that further down the road. 

[LeiaBryant]

23 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

What I'm wondering is, why not seek secular humanist non believers as friends? Even in the Bible belt there's some. I let go of all my xtian friends - I recognized that I'm just giving them power to potentially hurt me by attempting to stay friends, and wasn't willing to risk that further down the road. 

I am not cutting my christian friends out of my life, but I am going to not pander to them or compromise to keep them,I just hope not to lose them but I have accepted the possiblity that could happen. I just need some idea how to come out to them . What I am doing now is preparing to come out to them,I think I better plan this ahead of time instead of winging it.

[older]

13 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

I just need some idea how to come out to them . What I am doing now is preparing to come out to them,I think I better plan this ahead of time instead of winging it.

  

You're in the Bible belt, so I don't know what you're dealing with, but is there a way you can just let the whole issue just sort of fade away? IOW, instead of some sort of dramatic announcement, just quietly back out of  discussing religion, be "too busy" to participate in stuff that has religious connections, etc.? 

[LeiaBryant]

23 minutes ago, older said:

  

You're in the Bible belt, so I don't know what you're dealing with, but is there a way you can just let the whole issue just sort of fade away? IOW, instead of some sort of dramatic announcement, just quietly back out of  discussing religion, be "too busy" to participate in stuff that has religious connections, etc.? 

That might work I will think about it .

[Joshpantera]

8 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

I am not cutting my christian friends out of my life, but I am going to not pander to them or compromise to keep them,I just hope not to lose them but I have accepted the possiblity that could happen. I just need some idea how to come out to them . What I am doing now is preparing to come out to them,I think I better plan this ahead of time instead of winging it.

 

You're on the verge of seeing true colors. And how nasty a lot of christians can be towards (1) non-believers and (2) esoteric mystics. But I suspect that some of them will not flip a switch. But of those who don't flip the nasty switch, you'll likely encounter some who act friendly but are steadfast about trying to bring back around again. And making gestures in that direction. 

 

 

[Tsathoggua9]

22 hours ago, florduh said:

"I'm a devout Catholic but I think divorce is necessary sometimes and there are cases where abortion should be allowed." 

 

Everybody makes up their own religion. Those who admit it are rare.

 

Very good point!