Is Christianity inheritly abusive to children?

[LeiaBryant]

I was paddled and spanked repeated as a kid and with one exception I did not deserve it. The verses about sparing the rod and spoiling the child , and "who he loves he chasenth "  were used as justification.  When I saw this video on YouTube I thought I should make a thread about it. Video in question: 

https://youtu.be/9z3DoBN286U

 

So let the debate on whether or not the Bible advocates child abuse.

[disillusioned]

Yes.

Even if not physical abuse necessarily, certainly psychological abuse. This isn't even a question as far as I'm concerned. 

[older]

5 hours ago, disillusioned said:

Yes.

Even if not physical abuse necessarily, certainly psychological abuse. This isn't even a question as far as I'm concerned. 

  

Not too long ago I had to go to a service at a fundy church and there was a 10-year-old kid there who stood up and said he was terrified of going to hell. That's child abuse of the first order.

[RealityCheck]

Telling a child, someone with a lifetime of potential ahead of them that they're nothing but depraved sinners is the epitome of child abuse.  I think the testimonies of the members of this site can attest to that fact.

[RealityCheck]

5 minutes ago, older said:

  

Not too long ago I had to go to a service at a fundy church and there was a 10-year-old kid there who stood up and said he was terrified of going to hell. That's child abuse of the first order.

I remember skits done during Halloween (targeted at kids of course) where they took you through one room after another depicting scenes of these teens ending up in hell.  It was kind of unnerving to me and I was well into adulthood when I first saw that.  Yeah, it's child abuse...

[Joshpantera]

Yeah, the very premise of threatening eternal torment if a child doesn’t conform to some set of rules sets the stage for a mentally abusive scenario. That alone is inherently abusive before even getting into the physical abuses that often can and do follow....

[♦ Fuego ♦]

The whole role of the god of the bible is that of a narcissist that demands absolute obedience or will kill his children. Oh, but he has a way out of eternal torment by slaughtering his son! Psycho.

 

Hey Abraham, kill your kid for me. Ok, ok, just kidding. But I do want you to cut off part of his penis. WTF?! 

 

Oh, and women, you were made to breed and at his whim. Don't like it? You are property. 

 

Evil cult based on tribal taboos and superstition. Probably had some insane founders as well.

[Wertbag]

My great grandad was apparently abusive with bible quotes used for justification (smack 'em with a rod being his favourite). My grandad said he had the Christianity beaten out of him. He could see the bible quotes were true, and that no divine aid came to his prayers, which was in conflict with the description of love and mercy the church tried to preach. 

The doubt he had was taught to my dad, and while he was a church goer it was always with unanswered questions. By the time it came to me the doubt was passed on and solidified. It took a couple of generations but in a way the child abuse of a century ago lead in part to my atheism. 

[◊ DestinyTurtle ◊]

My dad really liked the Doctrine of Total Depravity, which is a fundamental principle in the theology of Calvinism. Basically it says that humans are absolutely incapable of doing anything positive or good, and that everything is constantly in a state of increasing depravity and deterioration. He frequently taught me, while I was a child, that no good progress will come from my time and that the future will always be worse than the past.

 

That's really devastating to a child who has hopes and dreams for who he wants to be or what he wants to accomplish. None of that mattered to him, though. He was more interested in proving that he's right.

[Joshpantera]

2 hours ago, DestinyTurtle said:

He frequently taught me, while I was a child, that no good progress will come from my time and that the future will always be worse than the past.

 

Of course, the evidence and stats show the exact opposite: 

 

 

2 hours ago, DestinyTurtle said:

That's really devastating to a child who has hopes and dreams for who he wants to be or what he wants to accomplish. None of that mattered to him, though. He was more interested in proving that he's right.

 

I bet. And facts and evidence usually have zero effect on that mindset. But I do find it interesting how wrong the Calvinist's can be about so many different doctrines. I suppose it's not any worse than flat earther's or YECist's resisting contrary evidence. But quality of life and living conditions have been improving over the long haul. That's just as damming to their doctrine of steady increasing depravity as is viewing the earth live via satellite to a flat earther. But nevertheless.........

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Yes.  Childhood indoctrination, especially of the fundamentalist/evangelical type, is abuse.  Yes, many of us here, including myself, were victims and are survivors of this type of abuse.  It is sometimes physical; but it is always emotional and psychological.  I no longer fear hell; because I've already been.  Only back then it was called it childhood.

[older]

10 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I no longer fear hell; because I've already been.  Only back then it was called it childhood.

  

Oh, Prof. That sucks. I hope there were at least a few days or times when things were good, and that there are many days and times now that are good.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

13 minutes ago, older said:

  

Oh, Prof. That sucks. I hope there were at least a few days or times when things were good, and that there are many days and times now that are good.

 Can't have Yin without some Yang, I reckon.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 3/17/2020 at 2:23 PM, LeiaBryant said:

 

So let the debate on whether or not the Bible advocates child abuse.

 

 

The answer in one word.  YES!   On many levels.  

[DarkLordPhil]

If you genuinely believe that a child is depraved to the core, you're going to focus more on stomping out negative traits than on encouraging positive ones—and positive traits like curiosity and assertiveness are probably going to look more like pride and rebellion. 

[ag_NO_stic]

I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, I skimmed over some of the top comments, but is it possible that it's a symbolic verse that people who have taken everything else literally in life took to mean spanking?  What if it's referring to discipline in parenting, which is a good thing....? Interesting.

 

Either way, I believe "Christianity" as practiced where I live, in the Southeastern part of the US, is often very abusive, yes. I think beginning the brainwashing at birth to believe you're awful is setting people up for self hatred and a host psychological, emotional, and mental health issues. 

[DarkLordPhil]

11 minutes ago, ag_NO_stic said:

I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, I skimmed over some of the top comments, but is it possible that it's a symbolic verse that people who have taken everything else literally in life took to mean spanking?  What if it's referring to discipline in parenting, which is a good thing....? Interesting.

 

My parents always took that verse to mean discipline in general. Unfortunately, their idea of "discipline" included emotional and verbal abuse, since according to them, I was just so stubborn and prideful that nothing else would work on me. (Spoiler alert: Saying "Hey, don't do that" would have worked on me.) 

[ag_NO_stic]

1 minute ago, DarkLordPhil said:

 

My parents always took that verse to mean discipline in general. Unfortunately, their idea of "discipline" included emotional and verbal abuse, since according to them, I was just so stubborn and prideful that nothing else would work on me. (Spoiler alert: Saying "Hey, don't do that" would have worked on me.) 

 

Oh I completely agree with you, people do SUCH harm with this verse.

 

I'm just pointing out the difference between a good discipline and what many people do to their children, which is awful. My mother was a complete narcissistic tyrant, she had no emotional regulation, and took out her stress on her kids in the must verbally and emotionally abusive fashion. I am SO with you, usually knowing I'd disappointed them was enough. The spankings after were usually just driving home the point that they didn't understand my desire to make them proud. 

[DarkLordPhil]

28 minutes ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

Oh I completely agree with you, people do SUCH harm with this verse.

 

I'm just pointing out the difference between a good discipline and what many people do to their children, which is awful. My mother was a complete narcissistic tyrant, she had no emotional regulation, and took out her stress on her kids in the must verbally and emotionally abusive fashion. I am SO with you, usually knowing I'd disappointed them was enough. The spankings after were usually just driving home the point that they didn't understand my desire to make them proud. 

 

Oh yeah, there's definitely a difference between good discipline (which IS important, if for no other reason than that kids do dumb things and need to have some sort of structure in their lives lest they kill themselves) and abuse. My mom was much the same as yours—she's in her fifties now and still throwing tantrums when things don't go her way, and Universe help you if you're in the same room when that happens. 

[ag_NO_stic]

52 minutes ago, DarkLordPhil said:

 

Oh yeah, there's definitely a difference between good discipline (which IS important, if for no other reason than that kids do dumb things and need to have some sort of structure in their lives lest they kill themselves) and abuse. My mom was much the same as yours—she's in her fifties now and still throwing tantrums when things don't go her way, and Universe help you if you're in the same room when that happens. 

 

You should PM me lol, I don't know your age but I bet you are STILL unpacking all the damage. I am a psych/counseling nerd and love unpacking that stuff. There are a lot of really interesting tidbits on this site and the internet in general about the overlap between Christianity and narcissism. Just think for a minute, you have to REALLY think you're special to think god separated you from the other animals and found you a special parking space close to the door so you don't have to walk far. It's actually unbelievable to me that these people believe they are on the pathway to an eternal heaven, so many act like such douches lol and then, behind closed doors, they are complete monsters.

[Joshpantera]

On 3/21/2020 at 4:12 PM, ag_NO_stic said:

Just think for a minute, you have to REALLY think you're special to think god separated you from the other animals and found you a special parking space close to the door so you don't have to walk far. It's actually unbelievable to me that these people believe they are on the pathway to an eternal heaven, so many act like such douches lol and then, behind closed doors, they are complete monsters.

 

Ain't that the truth! 

 

I mentioned the biblical authors previously. What I see are a lot of narcissist's attracted to the writings of the bronze age era narcissist's who wrote these verses. They paint an image of a supernatural god who's narcissistic, framed in THEIR own likeness.

 

Then modern narcissistic personalities tend to model their own actions after this bronze age concept presented by the narcissistic priests and scribes. Where just like in the stories, where the gods narcissistic behavior is always justified by the writers, these modern people tend to find self justification for their own narcissism in similar ways. The end justifies the means and so on. They feel self righteous and god sanctioned as they beat religion into children....

[ag_NO_stic]

On 3/22/2020 at 10:29 AM, Joshpantera said:

 

Ain't that the truth! 

 

I mentioned the biblical authors previously. What I see are a lot of narcissist's attracted to the writings of the bronze age era narcissist's who wrote these verses. They paint an image of a supernatural god who's narcissistic, framed in THEIR own likeness.

 

Then modern narcissistic personalities tend to model their own actions after this bronze age concept presented by the narcissistic priests and scribes. Where just like in the stories, where the gods narcissistic behavior is always justified by the writers, these modern people tend to find self justification for their own narcissism in similar ways. The end justifies the means and so on. They feel self righteous as they beat religion into children....

 

I'm sure you're not wrong here. 

 

Another element to all this that we might not be considering is just how helpful the internet has been in exposing the truth. Think for a minute, my parents did the "you don't get to ask why, it's because I said so," and they HAD NO IDEA how to teach us to make good decisions. They chose hell here on earth, that's what I think the bible is saying anyway. 

 

I really believe this. My parents weren't really religious until kids, when they suddenly realized they had no way to stop us from doing what THEY did. So they threw themselves into indoctrinating us with this concept of total depravity and our need for a savior. They had no idea what we know today in the field of human behavior, they were just trying to force an end result.

 

The bible calls these image obsessed people Pharisees and the Jesus they worship abhorred it.

[Joshpantera]

40 minutes ago, ag_NO_stic said:

The bible calls these image obsessed people Pharisees and the Jesus they worship abhorred it.

 

I noticed this growing up. The basic fact that our religious leaders now had reverted back to many of the very things jesus was railing against the religious leaders in the stories. The blind leading the blind further along into darkness and all of it. Of course I was often disciplined for speaking out and accusing them of such things. That's just made me all the more angry, though. And continued to solidify my growing anti-theistic views. I was pretty mad about it for the first few decades after leaving. Then eventually toned down, somewhat....

[ag_NO_stic]

10 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

I noticed this growing up. The basic fact that our religious leaders now had reverted back to many of the very things jesus was railing against the religious leaders in the stories. The blind leading the blind further along into darkness and all of it. Of course I was often disciplined for speaking out and accusing them of such things. That's just made me all the more angry, though. And continued to solidify my growing anti-theistic views. I was pretty mad about it for the first few decades after leaving. Then eventually toned down, somewhat....

 

So, the question becomes, is it "Christianity," that's abusive? Or the people interpreting things however way they want that gives them license to abuse.

 

What's awful is enough time has passed now that the way these people parent is ENCOURAGED by others in the same mindset. 

 

Out of curiosity, does anyone know Christians like this who aren't well off? I've seen it so correlated with money and image that it seems causative.

[Joshpantera]

2 minutes ago, ag_NO_stic said:

So, the question becomes, is it "Christianity," that's abusive? Or the people interpreting things however way they want that gives them license to abuse.

 

I think it can be argued that it's christianity itself behind mentally abusive beliefs. It's the belief's themselves which orchestrate the threats of damnation to all those who simply don't believe, or believe differently than what the religion requires. The writers set up these scenarios from the beginning, in writing. It wasn't figurative or metaphorical that non-believers be dammed. It was very literal and believe and passed down very literal from the beginning of known early christian history.