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Goodbye Jesus

Ancient and Modern Visions of Jesus


Azkdnfnei

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Hey guys,

 

I have two questions:

 

1. A common way of explaining the disciple's belief in the resurrection is that they had visions. But then apologists interject, what visions last forty days? How can I explain this?

 

2. I have a question about modern appearances of Jesus (as I'm sure you guessed from the topic title.) Specifically, the supposed vision of Jesus in Chapter 5 of Bart Ehrman's book, How Jesus Became God. It gives an example of an event in 1969 where Kenneth Logie of the Pentecostal Holiness Church and two hundred people reported seeing a woman disappear and inplace, Jesus appeared for several minutes. It was even on film (although it was stolen). But more importantly, there were photographs of strange things happening in the church, most notably a type of oil seeping from the walls in the shape of crosses, hands, and hearts. The walls were investigated by a skeptic and there was no natural explanation. All the information I gave was in that chapter of Bart Ehrman's book. I'll admit, I'm biased against these sort of events but I don't know what to make of this event. Many people claim it as evidence for Christianity. What do you guys think? Honestly hearing these kind of events makes me scared that Christianity could be true. 

 

I would really appreciate any well-thought out responses. Thank you!

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25 minutes ago, Azkdnfnei said:

But then apologists interject, what visions last forty days? How can I explain this?

'Shrooms

 

25 minutes ago, Azkdnfnei said:

I would really appreciate any well-thought out responses.

Oops.  My bad.

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These types of vision stories -- ancient and modern -- are to my knowledge always anecdotal. There never seems to be any verifiable evidence beyond hearsay. 

 

Anyway, here's what Bart Ehrman and some commentators have to say on this issue: https://ehrmanblog.org/modern-visions-of-jesus/

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On 3/30/2020 at 1:43 PM, Azkdnfnei said:

Hey guys,

 

I have two questions:

 

1. A common way of explaining the disciple's belief in the resurrection is that they had visions. But then apologists interject, what visions last forty days? How can I explain this?

 

2. I have a question about modern appearances of Jesus (as I'm sure you guessed from the topic title.) Specifically, the supposed vision of Jesus in Chapter 5 of Bart Ehrman's book, How Jesus Became God. It gives an example of an event in 1969 where Kenneth Logie of the Pentecostal Holiness Church and two hundred people reported seeing a woman disappear and inplace, Jesus appeared for several minutes. It was even on film (although it was stolen). But more importantly, there were photographs of strange things happening in the church, most notably a type of oil seeping from the walls in the shape of crosses, hands, and hearts. The walls were investigated by a skeptic and there was no natural explanation. All the information I gave was in that chapter of Bart Ehrman's book. I'll admit, I'm biased against these sort of events but I don't know what to make of this event. Many people claim it as evidence for Christianity. What do you guys think? Honestly hearing these kind of events makes me scared that Christianity could be true. 

 

I would really appreciate any well-thought out responses. Thank you!

Boy, I'm late to this party but I just joined so forgive me! 

QUESTION 1

First, we have no witnesses at all who testify to the group appearances. The only source that mentions anything about Jesus being with the disciples for 40 days post-resurrection is found in Acts 1:3. It doesn't say he was constantly with them for 40 days, but that he appeared to them over a 40 day period. This was a tradition the author of Acts (and Luke) had picked up along the way, but he was not an eyewitness to these events (nor does he even claim to be). So we don't know how this tradition started or where it started. 

Second, there are examples throughout history of individuals and groups of individuals having experiences that lasted for long periods of time. One example can be found in the Marian apparitions (where Mary was believed to have appeared to people for prolonged periods of time). For example, the incident of Our Lady of Gietrzwałd where she was said to have appeared for around three months! Many more examples could be cited, but this is the first one that came to my mind. 

Third, the Gospels were written in Ancient Greco-Roman bio and thus included legendary stories and embellishments. Such embellishments could have been also added in Acts. I write about this extensively on my blog.

QUESTION 2 

First, historical and modern visions of Jesus are very popular. Check out the book Visions of Jesus: Direct Encounters from the New Testament to Today (1997) by Phillip H. Wiebe. In fact, modern miracles are very much testified to today (check out the two-volume set by Chriatian Craig Keener if you want to see the most exhaustive list to date). Ironically, most miracles contradict one another or are found in groups of Christians that contradict one another. 

For example, Protestants reject Catholic miracles, Catholic miracles reject most Protestant miracles, and groups within protestant churches reject one another miracles (Pentecostals' miracles aren't accepted by the Baptists and so on). 

If we have to believe EVERY miracle based on eyewitness testimony, then we are in trouble. But if we are selective about which miracles we believe based on eyewitness testimony, then what is the gauge for determining which are legitimate or not? There aren't. I believe modern psychology and neuroscience provide natural explanations for why people have visions, experiences, or hallucinations; and it's not because they actually happened. 

Second, miracles and appearances of this sort appear in other religions. So if this proves Christianity true, it proves other religions true as well! In fact, there is MUCH better evidence for resurrection traditions in other religions than for Jesus' resurrection. For a couple of examples, check out Israel ben Eliezer (Baal Shem Tov) and Sathya Sai Baba

If eyewitness testimony from individuals and groups are reasons to believe something, then we will have to start believing in A LOT more things. The problem is that miracles and groups who believe them are often mutually exclusive and antithetical to one another. And to claim only certain miracles while denying others when the evidence is analogous to or greater than the miracles one believes in is self-defeating! 


Certainly, I believe a god who wants to be known could do a better job of making himself known than this. 

A book I highly recommend is The Case Against Miracles.

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Also, please pardon any grammatical mistakes. When I type on forums like this it is usually in my spare time and I don't proofread. So if something I said doesn't make sense, please let me know and I can explain further. 

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And also, isn't it interesting that the story of Jesus is very similar to those of Krishna and several other god/men before him??

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Hello @JamesDHamptonand welcome to our community!  A former Christian minister turned kickass counter-apologist!  I took a quick look at your blog and all I can say is, what’s not to love about it?!   You’ve evidently put a lot of time and thought into it, so you may not have much time to post here, but I hope you’ll tell us a little about yourself and your background.  And thank you for your response to @Azkdnfnei’s post!

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It was suggested by swoon theory proponents (that is the idea Jesus survived) that the visit to his followers afterwards was more proof of that. Thomas touching the wounds would point to a physical Jesus who had not miraculously healed all of his wounds. He had not ascended to a new spiritual form, but was still there as he previously was.

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12 hours ago, TABA said:

Hello @JamesDHamptonand welcome to our community!  A former Christian minister turned kickass counter-apologist!  I took a quick look at your blog and all I can say is, what’s not to love about it?!   You’ve evidently put a lot of time and thought into it, so you may not have much time to post here, but I hope you’ll tell us a little about yourself and your background.  And thank you for your response to @Azkdnfnei’s post!

Thanks so much! I appreciate it. Where is the best place for me to introduce myself and share more about my background? I'd be more than happy to do that. 

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