Are You Sure You Really Don't Believe

[Guest freedwoman]

I just don't understand how any human being can ever so confidentially sit there all smug and say with all authority God exists or that God doesn't exist??? Please all you theists and atheists tell me how you KNOW??? 

[Guest freedwoman]

To be fair and honest here. Unless God shows itself to us all no human will ever KNOW? Hell we don't even know ourselves completely do we? 

[florduh]

2 hours ago, freedwoman said:

After all if you can convince yourself there is no God then you can do whatever the heck you want.

Sorry, that actually is offensive. It demonstrates assumption and judgment without understanding. Historically speaking it is those with one god belief or other that have done the most evil in this world.

 

No god belief is the default we are born into. Theists then try to do all the convincing. When that tactic fails for lack of evidence then one does not have to convince oneself that no evidence has been presented. It is simply a fact that the case for a god existing hasn't been made. It is not facts and logic that bring people to such god beliefs, it is emotional.

[Geezer]

There is no shortage of Gods to believe in. Humans have been creating gods and religions for as long as humans have existed. Gods were apparently originally created as a way of explaining the unexplainable awesome power of storms, volcanoes, lightening, etc.

Humans are also the only species that realize they are mortal. Humans know we all will eventually die and that concerns us. So Humans invented the concept of an afterlife as a way of convincing ourselves that death isn’t the end. So we try to convince ourselves that something more exists beyond the grave, and that lead humans to create God and a supernatural paradise where death, pain, and suffering doesn’t exist.

 

 

[LeiaBryant]

1 hour ago, freedwoman said:

God is a jealous God. He doesn't like competition. That always made me think. 

Me too. I started researching His competition. As I see it,there is a God or Goddess for everyone you just have to find the one that fits you.

[LeiaBryant]

46 minutes ago, freedwoman said:

I just don't understand how any human being can ever so confidentially sit there all smug and say with all authority God exists or that God doesn't exist??? Please all you theists and atheists tell me how you KNOW??? 

I know the Gods exist because of first hand supernatural experiences. The evidence of this I have is only convincing to me unfortunately. Try doing a magick spell and see what happens.

[Lerk]

7 hours ago, freedwoman said:

Please don't be offended by this question. It's not meant to be offensive. But I'm really just curious here. I wonder if atheists really don't believe in a God or some other entity? Or whether they just just say they don't? After all if you can convince yourself there is no God then you can do whatever the heck you want. So it makes Hell and eternal suffering less real. But just saying you don't believe in God doesn't make him or whatever less real. If he or whatever even exists???

 

It's not impossible that there are such things as ghosts/spirits/angels/demons/gods/minds-without-brains, but it's highly unlikely.

 

But this I know: Even if there are such things as gods, the Bible doesn't describe a real one / real ones. The Bible starts off with "The Most High" and his sons creating the Universe in 6 days. At some point, those sons mate with human women and produce a race of giants called the Nephilim. At a later point, those hybrids would necessarily die because the Most High causes a flood that drowns all but 8 people.

 

Later, one of the sons who happens to be good, Jehovah, calls Abraham so that he can make a nation of his descendants. When the nation emerges from captivity in Egypt, Moses sings a song explaining how the Most High divided up the people of the world into nations, one nation for each of his sons, and Jehovah (aka "The LORD") gets the descendants of Jacob as his inheritance. The LORD is said to be much better at leading his people than the other gods, who are by implication his brothers.

 

In Psalm 82 we see either the Most High or Jehovah pronouncing that the other gods are going to lose their divinity and will eventually die.

 

NO CHRISTIAN THAT I'M AWARE OF BELIEVES ANY OF THIS, yet it's exactly what the Bible says. There's just flat no reason to think that any of the Bible is anything other than myths and legends. Christians don't believe a bunch of it because it's simply unbelievable. I bet you never heard in church that the Most High is Jehovah's father -- normal Christian theology says that they're the same god -- normal Christian theology denies what the Bible says about the gods.

 

So, no, I really don't believe or even think it's possible that Jehovah is real.

 

Edit: I didn't read the entire thread before posting. I see now that you're not sure whether you believe or not. My conclusion is basically, if there are such things as gods, they clearly don't care whether we know about them or not. But as far as I can tell, every god that people believe in is the product of speculation about what a god would be like if there were such things as gods.

 

Regarding morality, it would necessarily have evolved or the human species would not have survived. Other animals have morals, as well, even though they can't write them down. I highly recommend the book "What it Means to be Moral" by Phil Zuckerman

[Guest freedwoman]

5 hours ago, florduh said:

Sorry, that actually is offensive. It demonstrates assumption and judgment without understanding. Historically speaking it is those with one god belief or other that have done the most evil in this world.

 

True. I agree 100%.

[midniterider]

9 hours ago, freedwoman said:

I just don't understand how any human being can ever so confidentially sit there all smug and say with all authority God exists or that God doesn't exist??? Please all you theists and atheists tell me how you KNOW??? 

 

Or both with high confidence in the same lifetime?

 

edit: I'm not really that confident about it. Kind of apathetic, for the most part. 

 

[midniterider]

7 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

I know the Gods exist because of first hand supernatural experiences. The evidence of this I have is only convincing to me unfortunately. Try doing a magick spell and see what happens.

 

If your experience was supernatural then you can't trust your perceptions. 

If your experience was ordinary, then you can trust your perceptions. 

 

/s

 

 

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

9 hours ago, freedwoman said:

Ugh. Why does it always have to be the Bible God??? I swear y'all must have a grudge against him or something. Well he is a cock cunt so I understand.

 

Because we are Ex-Christians. Were we Ex-Muslims we would be talking about how bad Allah is.

 

And no, I don't hate or hold grudges against fictional characters. Imagine if during a discussion about The Lord of the rings, and we were discussing how evil Sauron was, and I came out and suggested that people harbored grudges and hated Sauron. It's a bit silly really.

 

To answer the question of the thread: Am I really sure I don't believe? Yes, I'm quite sure. The one thing I can be sure of is what I do and don't believe. This is how I know Christians are speaking utter bullshit when they say I know in my heart that God exists, that I just deny him because of xyz reason. It's horseshit. I don't like Trump, but I acknowledge his existence. If I believed God was real, even if I didn't like him, I'd acknowledge his existence.

 

But the one thing I know is that I know that I don't know if god exists, and I know that I don't believe any gods do exist. 

[florduh]

The ex-Christians here seem pretty convinced that the Bible God most certainly does not exist, in fact can't exist. Many are a little less certain that some other type of god/creator doesn't exist and many dabble in Deism just to keep the supernatural door open a crack. The possible reality of those other creators/hands-off gods is a separate discussion.

[LogicalFallacy]

47 minutes ago, midniterider said:

8 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

I know the Gods exist because of first hand supernatural experiences. The evidence of this I have is only convincing to me unfortunately. Try doing a magick spell and see what happens.

 

If your experience was supernatural then you can't trust your perceptions. 

If your experience was ordinary, then you can trust your perceptions. 

 

/s

 

 

I've tried. Nothing happened. I know, I know, I'm not doing it right, much like I just didn't have enough faith blah blah /s  

 

However, I can confirm that the Great Invisible Pink Unicorn exists. I've prayed and its answered my prayer - within half an hour. I can prove it. So there's that. 

 

How do I know she's pink if she's invisible? Well I've had the great horn thrust upon me so now I see clearly. 

[Joshpantera]

12 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

I know the Gods exist because of first hand supernatural experiences. The evidence of this I have is only convincing to me unfortunately. Try doing a magick spell and see what happens.

It's not so cut and dry. Magick is closely tied to your own consciousness and sub conscious mind. I don't know if you broke into all the threads midnite and I have going about magick and it's relation to the persons consciousness and sub conscious mind in the spirituality section. Scientific study of magick and that sort of thing. 

 

So when you think that you know of a gods existence because of spells that worked, you don't actually know that. The stronger bet may be that it's been you yourself making it work. And has nothing to do with any gods or goddesses carrying out wishes or commands. But that's a talk for the spirituality section. Lot's of links, videos and citation there concerning these sorts of magick issues. And explanations that are lesser known. 

 

12 hours ago, freedwoman said:

To be fair and honest here. Unless God shows itself to us all no human will ever KNOW? Hell we don't even know ourselves completely do we? 

 

And this part goes towards some of the debate forum discussions as of lately.

 

"Know" is a foggy word around here, as it turns out. By "know" you seem to mean having certain, firm, concrete and truth oriented knowledge about the existence or non-existence of god. As is the case with the context of most god related, gnostic or agnostic claims. Meaning specifically, knowing or not-knowing whether a god exists in terms of certainty. Not knowing in some other way, or figuratively or something else. 

 

So if we set aside any out of context meanings of the words know or knowledge, the yes, no one "knows" absolutely if there is or isn't a god.

 

You're correct and these are common thoughts to have. And that's also a big point here. No one does. And atheism isn't so much about "knowing" that god doesn't exist. It's about lacking the positive belief, which, is common with both atheists and agnostics. Neither have absolute knowledge of whether or not a god exists. 

 

I questioned gods existence. I entertained the possibility that it may not be true. Even though I was raised believing what I was told about god absolutely existing. There were things that weren't adding up. My pastors couldn't hold a good strong argument when challenged. And finally the mythological nature of the bible started starring me in the face. I stopped believing it. It no longer made any sense to believe it. To be honest, it would be nice to think it's all true. And that despite anything I've done, I'm still loved and favored by a supernatural deity watching over me all the time. But I can't go backwards. I'd be pretending and fooling myself if I tried. I just don't believe and can't believe it any more. 

 

If some being suddenly appeared in front of my face and everyone else could see it too, I'd wonder what in the world this alien being is doing here on earth? 

 

You know why? 

 

Because anything that could appear in front of us and that we could look at as fixed object would be a "finite" object that it's possible to look at. An advanced life form of some type, not an infinite and eternal god, which, by definition would be beyond viewing directly.

 

God as some absolute reality, gets caught up in the whole span of existence itself. With a presence all over, everywhere - omnipresent. The whole universe and beyond. What most people do is think of a finite representation of something that they claim to believe is beyond any finite representation. It's way of thinking about or imagining something that would have to be completely beyond thinking about or imagining. Because it's infinite and eternal. 

 

In the end, a god as something infinite and eternal places it as existence itself. Whole and totality oriented.

 

Which then brings it close to home because we are existing beings. Whatever is infinite and eternal IS us. We a part of it and it is the totality that we actually are in reality, at the base of everything. I'm not afraid of that. Nor should you be either. It's our own inner essence and existence. Everything else is just politically motivated mythological stories. Which can't really do anything for anyone aside from take them down a rabbit hole or path leading to where I just took you now. If they look into it far enough. 

 

Once you grasp the infinite and eternal god as the totality, you're there. You've arrived. And then everything starts falling into place. These questions about the existence of god can take on a different perspective entirely. When you travel outside of the box christianity had you placed in. It's set up a series of contradictions about a god. None of which are resolved easily. And lead to confusion. Such as the question you're asking. 

 

But it's possible to look beyond all of that. 

 

 

[midniterider]

4 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

I've tried. Nothing happened. I know, I know, I'm not doing it right, much like I just didn't have enough faith blah blah /s  

 

However, I can confirm that the Great Invisible Pink Unicorn exists. I've prayed and its answered my prayer - within half an hour. I can prove it. So there's that. 

 

How do I know she's pink if she's invisible? Well I've had the great horn thrust upon me so now I see clearly. 

 

You never were a true sorcerer. (haha) 

 

Well, she is obviously invisible because we cant see her...(logic, my friend - lol).  Being pink, not sure. Did she leave a pink paint transfer behind when her horn ...ummm....nvm.

[LogicalFallacy]

4 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

You never were a true sorcerer. (haha) 

 

Well, she is obviously invisible because we cant see her...(logic, my friend - lol).  Being pink, not sure. Did she leave a pink paint transfer behind when her horn ...ummm....nvm.

 

It's a personal revelation my brother. Until you have been thrust upon you will never understand.

[SarahJaneSmith]

7 hours ago, florduh said:

The ex-Christians here seem pretty convinced that the Bible God most certainly does not exist, in fact can't exist. Many are a little less certain that some other type of god/creator doesn't exist and many dabble in Deism just to keep the supernatural door open a crack. The possible reality of those other creators/hands-off gods is a separate discussion.

This is a good description of where I’m at. I don’t know if there’s some impersonal Supreme Being out there, but I have concluded the god of the bible doesn’t exist (which still feels scary to type out but yet it’s my honest belief). 

[LeiaBryant]

7 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

I've tried. Nothing happened. I know, I know, I'm not doing it right, much like I just didn't have enough faith blah blah /s  

 

However, I can confirm that the Great Invisible Pink Unicorn exists. I've prayed and its answered my prayer - within half an hour. I can prove it. So there's that. 

 

How do I know she's pink if she's invisible? Well I've had the great horn thrust upon me so now I see clearly. 

It is about the amount of faith you have, that a Christian measure of spirituality. It is about intention aka willpower. Magick requires altering your consciousness by your own intention.

[LeiaBryant]

8 hours ago, florduh said:

The ex-Christians here seem pretty convinced that the Bible God most certainly does not exist, in fact can't exist. Many are a little less certain that some other type of god/creator doesn't exist and many dabble in Deism just to keep the supernatural door open a crack. The possible reality of those other creators/hands-off gods is a separate discussion.

Agreed and there is a clear consensus here the the God of the Bible isn't real. I the only exception to that here as far as I know believes He exist yet I follow other Gods which I also believe exist. Deism me might be a good fit for you if you don't want to follow a specific Goddess or God. 

[LogicalFallacy]

27 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

It is about the amount of faith you have, that a Christian measure of spirituality. It is about intention aka willpower. Magick requires altering your consciousness by your own intention.

 

Oh I can alter consciousness via intention, but I cannot will a million dollars into my bank account... or the piece of paper to rise of the ground, or a headache to disappear... and I've tried. However I am open to anybody that can to will a million dollars into my account.

 

However willpower can get you to crunch out that last rep even though your body is like, nah, uh uh, not happening. I be like JUST DO IT.

 

 

Mmm actually that's B/S. I take it back. Once you've maxed out, and I mean properly, no amount of willpower can get you to lift that weight one last time because physics.

 

It's like people saying just following your dreams, you can do anything you set your mind to. No you can't. While motivation is great, no amount of willpower is going to turn a person with my genetics into a 100 meter world champion, or the world bodybuilder champion. It just won't happen, can't happen. Physics. Genetics. It sucks, but that's reality.

 

The same goes for everybody. There re limitations and wishful thinking won't get you your dreams if they are outside your physical or mental capabilities. However hard work and motivation can get you further along than if you did nothing.

 

Of course I'm open to being proved wrong, but meanwhile I'm very skeptical.

 

Kinda went off the rails there sorry. Half motivational speech, half reality check.

[florduh]

4 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

Deism me might be a good fit for you if you don't want to follow a specific Goddess or God. 

I don't need or want a "good fit." I want reality, and so far my investigation shows reality doesn't include deities.

[Tsathoggua9]

15 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

If your experience was supernatural then you can't trust your perceptions. 

If your experience was ordinary, then you can trust your perceptions. 

 

/s

 

 

 

 

 

I have also experienced positive results wen employing "sigil magick". I don't like to say that I "believe" in anything, and I don't like to use the term "supernatural;  I just know that somehow, the desired result manifested.

[midniterider]

39 minutes ago, Tsathoggua9 said:

 

I have also experienced positive results wen employing "sigil magick". I don't like to say that I "believe" in anything, and I don't like to use the term "supernatural;  I just know that somehow, the desired result manifested.

 

Oh , cool  

 

Well, I agree with you as far as terminology goes. The 'chaos' authors I've read feel that the subconscious (natural, not supernatural) is somehow involved.  But as long as you get results, the mechanism is irrelevant. Have you read any Phil Hine or Peter Carroll? 

[Tsathoggua9]

11 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Oh , cool  

 

Well, I agree with you as far as terminology goes. The 'chaos' authors I've read feel that the subconscious (natural, not supernatural) is somehow involved.  But as long as you get results, the mechanism is irrelevant. Have you read any Phil Hine or Peter Carroll? 

 

 

Yes, they are quite insightful. Austin Osman Spare is also a good source.

[disillusioned]

On 3/31/2020 at 10:44 AM, freedwoman said:

To be fair and honest here. Unless God shows itself to us all no human will ever KNOW? Hell we don't even know ourselves completely do we? 

 

In answer to your origunal question, yes,  I'm quite sure that I really don't believe. I'm certain of it,  in fact.

 

In answer to this much different question, I want to say that much depends on what it means to "know". I've said a thing or two about this previously on these boards. I'm aware that some people find this tiresome, so I won't belabor the point here. But consider your final question and it's implications: if, as you query, we can't even completely know ourselves, then why should we expect to be able to really know anything? Nevertheless, we all go about claiming to "know" things all the time. I think that this points to a problem with the common definition of knowledge. See here, or PM me if you're interested in this. If not, carry on.