Guest freedwoman Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 That is what makes God God in the first place. God doesn't require a creator to exist. God is the creator. This whole "who made God"? argument does nothing to show that God doesn't exist. It's just that our feeble finite minds can't grasp that something has eternally existed and will continue to eternally exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 31, 2020 Super Moderator Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, freedwoman said: That is what makes The Universe, The Universe in the first place. The Universe doesn't require a creator to exist. The Universe is the creator. This whole "who made The Universe"? argument does nothing to show that The Universe doesn't exist. It's just that our feeble finite minds can't grasp that something has eternally existed and will continue to eternally exist. Same difference. You could also substitute LF's horny goat, or the Six Nippled One (glorify her name). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin webmdave Posted March 31, 2020 Admin Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, freedwoman said: This whole "who made God"? argument does nothing to show that God doesn't exist. What the argument does is refute the Christian logical fallacy that states everything that exists requires a creator to explain its existence. If that it is true and a god exists, then the god must also have been created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest freedwoman Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 minute ago, webmdave said: What the argument does is refute the Christian logical fallacy that states everything that exists requires a creator to explain its existence. If that it is true and a god exists, then the god must also have been created. Nope. Not true at all God does NOT need a creator. That is why it is called God. Because God IS the creator. Being God means it has always existed. Why is that concept so difficult to grasp??? I'm confused on how some people cannot understand that. God= Always existed. Never created. Doesn't require a creator. It is the creator. Heck It never even created Itself. It didn't need to It just existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest freedwoman Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, webmdave said: If that it is true and a god exists, then the god must also have been created. Well then. Who created God? No one that's who. God always existed. Why does it always have to be the Christian God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin webmdave Posted March 31, 2020 Admin Share Posted March 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, freedwoman said: Well then. Who created God? No one that's who. God always existed. Why does it always have to be the Christian God? If any god exists, then according to the maxim that everything that exists requires a creator, then god requires a creator. And that creator requires a creator, ad infinitum. It's just logic. Quote " The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true. We have a method, and that method helps us to reach not absolute truth, only asymptotic approaches to the truth — never there, just closer and closer, always finding vast new oceans of undiscovered possibilities. Cleverly designed experiments are the key." Carl Sagan "Wonder and Skepticism", Skeptical Inquirer 19 (1), January-February 1995, ISSN 0194-6730 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest freedwoman Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Who was the first creator? The first creator of all? The creator of all creators? You're thinking in the finite realm. You need to think in terms of the INFINITE. I know how difficult that is. I'm a finite creature just like yourself. It's mind boggling. It's preposterous, it's crazy, it's unimaginable, it's non understandable. We are born. We die. Suns die. Even the universe will eventually die? How could not needing a creator be possible? I don't know? You don't know? No one knows. Maybe not even God itself knows why it always existed. Maybe even God doesn't know why it never needed a creator??? Well then why the fuck am I asking another human being if even God itself can't even answer it's eternal existence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest freedwoman Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 This drives me crazy. One of the many questions I'll get no answer to. Why am I defending God anyway??? Shouldn't It be defending me? Defending and protecting us all? That's it. From now on I no longer will defend God. What can a crapping finite do for God that IT can't do for ITSELF? That is IF It exists??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin webmdave Posted March 31, 2020 Admin Share Posted March 31, 2020 Just now, freedwoman said: Who was the first creator? The first creator of all? The creator of all creators? You're thinking in the finite realm. You need to think in terms of the INFINITE. I know how difficult that is. I'm a finite creature just like yourself. It's mind boggling. It's preposterous, it's crazy, it's unimaginable, it's non understandable. We are born. We die. Suns die. Even the universe will eventually die? How could not needing a creator be possible? I don't know? You don't know? No one knows. Maybe not even God itself knows why it always existed. Maybe even God doesn't know why it never needed a creator??? Well then why the fuck am I asking another human being if even God itself can't even answer it's eternal existence? Finite realm? What else is there? Please show me how you know there is such a thing as an infinite realm. I am of the opinion that the Universe has always existed in one form or another. However, no one really knows for sure the answer to the question of where everything came from. All we can know for sure is that everything is here. The correct answer to the question regarding where did everything come from is "I don't know the answer to that, yet." Not knowing the answer does not make superstitious mythology true. For example we now know that neither Zeus nor Thor nor Yahweh throw thunderbolts at the Earth. Thunder and lightning are just a normal weather phenomenon. We understand that today, thanks to science. The Christian god is the god of the gaps. He exists only where there are gaps in our knowledge. He dwells in where ignorance dwells, otherwise known as the ignorance realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest freedwoman Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Well we are born and die don't we? That is finite. Well if the universe always existed. I guess you could say the universe is God??? But then doesn't that mean that everything needs a creator is a contradiction to the universe eternal existence??? How does the universe always exist if everything needs a creator??? I'm asking you because you make the claim that even God needs a creator??? But indeed It would not??? I don't think we get each other mate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin webmdave Posted March 31, 2020 Admin Share Posted March 31, 2020 7 minutes ago, freedwoman said: Well we are born and die don't we? That is finite. Well if the universe always existed. I guess you could say the universe is God??? But then doesn't that mean that everything needs a creator is a contradiction to the universe eternal existence??? How does the universe always exist if everything needs a creator??? I'm asking you because you make the claim that even God needs a creator??? But indeed It would not??? I don't think we get each other mate? Christians say everything needs a creator, and that's the reason there is a creator, they say. I don't say that. That's silly. What you don't seem to comprehend, matey, is that saying things don't make the things true. If your god doesn't require a creator, then why would the Universe require a creator? Doesn't a natural explanation for everything make a bit more sense than leaning on make-believe supernatural mythology? You seem compelled to convince others here that your god is real just because you say so. Good luck with that, matey. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin webmdave Posted March 31, 2020 Admin Share Posted March 31, 2020 "The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity." -- Carl Sagan as quoted in "Scientists & Their Gods" in U.S. News & World Report Vol. 111 (1991) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest freedwoman Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Not at all my fellow human in quest for answers. What I want is for atheists and theists to show me proof to back up their claims??? We're human. It's in our nature to question everything and search for answers. You atheists and theists have a lot of work to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin webmdave Posted March 31, 2020 Admin Share Posted March 31, 2020 4 hours ago, freedwoman said: Not at all my fellow human in quest for answers. What I want is for atheists and theists to show me proof to back up their claims??? We're human. It's in our nature to question everything and search for answers. You atheists and theists have a lot of work to do. OK, Christian. That's not how it works. As there is no compelling evidence that any of the gods people have worshiped have ever existed, therefore I do not believe in any of them. I do not claim categorically no gods exist, just that there is no evidence they exist. I also don't believe that Russel's Teapot is in orbit between Earth and Mars. However, if I could be shown evidence that such a phenomenon exists, I would likely change my position on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest freedwoman Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 I gotta be going to work now. We'll catch up later. Stay safe now. Later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest freedwoman Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 minute ago, webmdave said: OK, Christian. Lol. Defo not one of those. But work calls must go for now. Later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqualung Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 DarkMatter has an excellent video on this subject. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 To Freedwoman and Dave... 'Christians say that everything needs a creator.' Well, as far as I know the leading Christian apologist who advocates this philosophical position is one William Lane Craig. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lane_Craig He uses the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which is in turn based upon his interpretation of a science paper by Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose that was published in 1970. In that paper these scientists present a mathematical proof that the universe had an absolute beginning. Craig uses this proof to assert that therefore science agrees with the Bible, specifically Genesis 1:1, where the universe didn't exist and then, by the will of God, it did. With all of time and space having a starting point (Hawking and Penrose call this the 'initial singularity') some 13.72 billion years ago. According to Craig this 'proves' that everything, including the universe, MUST have had a creator. However, Hawking and Penrose placed very strict limits on what their 1970 singularity theory can and can't do. If the universe possesses something called a positive cosmological constant, then their theory doesn't apply to the universe. Their theory only works if the cosmological constant has a zero or negative value. Fast forward to 1998 and three separate teams of astronomers measured the universe's cosmological constant to be a small, but positive value. https://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9805201 Observational Evidence from Supernovae for an Accelerating Universe and a Cosmological Constant https://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9805200 The High-Z Supernova Search: Measuring Cosmic Deceleration and Global Curvature of the Universe Using Type Ia Supernovae https://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9812133 Measurements of Omega and Lambda from 42 High-Redshift Supernovae The Hawking - Penrose singularity theory therefore cannot be used to prove anything about our universe. It's been refuted by evidence. The irony is that this happened in 1998 and Craig didn't start publicly making his assertions about this theory in 2007. On his own website, Reasonablefaith.com. So he was wrong from get go. In fact, any Christian who claims that science 'proves' that the universe had a beginning is wrong. Firstly, because the currently accepted theory of cosmic origins, the Lambda Cold Dark Matter model, says nothing about the actual 'creation' of the universe. It takes over after that and begins with the universe in a hot, dense state, from which it 'inflates'. Please Google 'Cosmic Inflation' to learn more about this. Or I can provide you with some helpful links. Secondly, in the sciences only mathematics uses proofs. A mathematical proof is complete, absolute and unchanging. Whereas all the other sciences use theories, not proofs. Theories are tentative and not absolute. They can be overturned by new evidence, just as the Hawking - Penrose theory was overturned, over twenty years ago. The bottom line is that Christians can argue that the universe had a beginning and they can believe by faith that it did, but they cannot 'prove' that from science, nor can they even demonstrate from evidence that it did. Anyway, Disillusioned, JoshPantera and I have been discussing the shortcomings of William Lane Craig's cosmology in this thread since Oct 1 last year. https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/82597-the-failed-cosmology-of-william-lane-craig/ Thank you, Walter. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 I think you missed the point of the RedneckProfessor's re-wording of your opening post, freedwoman. If the universe has always existed, then there is no need to invoke any kind of God, deity, intelligent designer or pink unicorn to explain its existence. Also, to say that one thing is exempt (i.e. God) from a rule (everything has to have a beginning) that applies to all other things is to commit the informal logical fallacy of Special Pleading. This is what Dave was referring to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading Ok, you can believe otherwise, but you have no logical or scientific grounds for doing so. Thank you, Walter. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest freedwoman Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, WalterP said: If the universe has always existed, then there is no need to invoke any kind of God, deity, intelligent designer or pink unicorn to explain its existence. No I thank you Walter P. Putting it at me this way made me think. All I had to do is see it this way. I now realize I have a lot of deprogramming to do. Rewiring of my brain. To really think about it. I would kiss you if you were in front of me. Without some fucking God I can truly be free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, WalterP said: If the universe has always existed, then there is no need to invoke any kind of God, deity, intelligent designer or pink unicorn to explain its existence. No I thank you Walter P. Putting it at me this way made me think. All I had to do is see it this way. I now realize I have a lot of deprogramming to do. Rewiring of my brain. To really think about it. I would kiss you if you were in front of me. Without some fucking God I can truly be free. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's ok, freedwoman. But please do note that as far as the science of cosmology is concerned, there is currently no definitive answer to the question, 'Is the universe eternal or did it have a beginning?' The catch is that many Christians deeply feel the need for 'something' science-based to confirm what they believe by faith. So, they do as William Lane Craig does and misuse/misunderstand science. Even though they genuinely believe with all their heart (as Craig does) that science 'proves' the Bible, the fact is that it doesn't. Going with facts and not faith sets you free from superstition. Thank you. Walter. (Kiss gratefully received, btw. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest freedwoman Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 16 minutes ago, WalterP said: 1 hour ago, WalterP said: If the universe has always existed, then there is no need to invoke any kind of God, deity, intelligent designer or pink unicorn to explain its existence. No I thank you Walter P. Putting it at me this way made me think. All I had to do is see it this way. I now realize I have a lot of deprogramming to do. Rewiring of my brain. To really think about it. I would kiss you if you were in front of me. Without some fucking God I can truly be free. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's ok, freedwoman. But please do note that as far as the science of cosmology is concerned, there is currently no definitive answer to the question, 'Is the universe eternal or did it have a beginning?' The catch is that many Christians deeply feel the need for 'something' science-based to confirm what they believe by faith. So, they do as William Lane Craig does and misuse/misunderstand science. Even though they genuinely believe with all their heart (as Craig does) that science 'proves' the Bible, the fact is that it doesn't. Going with facts and not faith sets you free from superstition. Thank you. Walter. (Kiss gratefully received, btw. ) You helped me out a ton. I stand corrected. There really doesn't have to be a God for anything to exist. If God can just exist why can't the universe then??? Plus if God really did exist then why doesn't he just show us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest freedwoman Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 God is omnipotent is he? Then he is in the presence of a nasty child abuser, rapist, and murderer and does nothing to protect the victims? Fuck you God! Oh wait he doesn't exist. That is another reason I struggled to believe in God. All this suffering going and while he does nothing to stop it. He's either to weak to stop it, gets off from it, doesn't care, or doesn't exist. The ladder makes more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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