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If the husband commands the wife to be in authority over him, what should she do?

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24 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If the husband commands the wife to be in authority over him, what should she do?

 

Well a good Christian woman would point out that her husband was being unscriptural and should not shirk his god given duty to be the head of the household, for "as Christ and the church so is a husband and wife" Christ of course being the head of the church. I know the pope likes to think he is the head of the church but the scriptures clearly say otherwise.

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8 hours ago, DanForsman said:

There are so many things I want to say here florduh that I have put off replying because the best response is at least a short book. The church I was raised in (Evangelical Free Church) was fundamental but not extreme at all by today's standard especially, no speaking in tongues or healings or shouting out and alter calls only maybe every month or two. I'm going to start by saying that in my opinion patriarchy as it is spelled out in so many places in the bible (freedwoman pointed out a number) functions in families not through sermons or even spoken words (as it is probably never discussed or else presented as a helpful type of special equality). Patriarchy is passed on by seeing it in action and realizing that there are lines that simply can't be crossed and discussions that can't be had regardless of how unreasonable the consequences of patriarchy are at times. It's enough that biblical instruction and more importantly example after example of how it functions in everyday life can be found especially throughout the old testament that if your church believes that god had a hand in choosing the scriptures in the bible then that christian church is supporting a type of patriarchy that goes well beyond a spiritual familial hierarchy. I'm not going to do the examples of absolute brutality toward women that can be found seemingly condoned if not commanded by god but maybe in another post if necessary. The male domination of women in the old testament goes well beyond spiritual and I wouldn't be surprised if there are also numerous examples in the new testament as well but old or new it is the very same christian god giving the message that women have a lot less value than men. The point i really want to make here is that while the Abrahamic religions (the only ones I know much of anything about) may not be responsible for creating patriarchy they carry a huge responsibility for keeping it going as unbelievably long as it has. I believe the biggest frontier of the civil rights struggle in the world today is woman's rights and until that struggle is won we cannot honestly consider ourselves a civilized society. I had loving parents that wanted to do everything they could to raise good children. They were not educated beyond high school but we wanted for absolutely nothing of value and had a nice clean house, good meals were served regularly, my parents never fought or used profanity or smoked or drank, my father always worked hard and tried to live by christian standards but ultimately I think patriarchy destroyed our family in it's support of a physically and mentally abusive relationship between my sister, the first born, and her abusive husband and abusive father to her children. I moved hundreds of miles away when i was old enough to start my own life not because I didn't love my family or want their companionship or even because I was the only non believer but because patriarchy turned reason upside down whenever it wanted and I wanted to try building a life without rehashing sound decisions over and over. And florduh i don't recall my mother ever washing the car or mowing the lawn but I do recall when I was 4 or 5 her telling a friend how my father found a bankbook with a small savings account she had started without his knowledge and how he took that and laughed telling her she didn't need that because he would give her whatever she needed. I also recall when I was 10 my mother taking a booking job at a local lumber yard after a bankrupcy and my father going down on her first day telling the owner it was just a silly mistake on my mothers part and bringing her home like a little child. I also remember my mother, who was totally feminine, saying privately on number of occasions to friends that she would have preferred to be a man and be able to make her own decisions. I do not believe our family structure was unique to others in our church. Simplifying patriarchy to either spiritual leader or wildly domineering husband leaves out the entire stage that patriarchy typically plays out on every day of our lives. I'll leave it here for now with Emily Watson's 2014 UN He for She speech: 

 

I agree with what you've said. Christianity bears a lot of responsibility for the perpetuation of patriarchy today. This is true even in families that are not overtly religious - it can still be infused from a religious society around them and in which they may be reluctant to stand out from the norm. Sometimes, for example in islamist societies, standing out can be dangerous, particularly if it's a father being outspoken about the rights of his daughter. I have a friend who grew up in a non religious family in Iran, and her family supported her move to Canada, largely because she would have more opportunity here in a less patriarchal oppressive society. 

Certainly there are differences in the way patriarchy functions between cultures and society. The patriarchy we have here in North America is more benign than in societies where Islam is a state religion. However, in fundamentalist families it's much less benign. My siblings and I were spanked and had our hair pulled even though my mother was against it, because my father was the head of the house and all that. I grew up in a church where it was considered ridiculous that women hold a job outside of the home. Higher education was discouraged. It was assumed that girls would marry between ages 18-24 so education for girls was less important. Luckily my mother had been more independent and was older when she got married and my sisters and I were never treated like failures or needing pity because we hadn't married - that's what I saw in other families in the church. Patriarchy is so engrained and so pervasive in some fundamentalist churches that unless you're a woman you cannot see how it functions - it affects your self esteem, your choices, your experiences, and your life trajectory, particulaly through your teens and early life if you aren't strong enough to buck the trend or cause conflict in your family.  I consider myself lucky to have had loving parents and a father that wasn't nearly as authoritarian as some I know. In spite of that, at age 36, it was my dad, at the dinner table, who warned me that I was doing wrong by talking about the hypocrisy of some church members. In these churches it's somehow ok for a father to tell an adult woman that her thinking is incorrect and she's sinning. 

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I don't know or particularly care how others here define feminism but for me, feminism is anti-patriarchal. So for any people thinking that taking offense over being called names for your position is ridiculous - maybe you need to consider that this is an ex Christian website intended to support ex Christians in recovery, and that for at least some women in that group, that includes recovery from patriarchy. 

 

Everyone has triggers. Yes I know lots of people like to make fun of that term as something experienced by "snowflakes", but in psychology its actually a thing - having a strong emotional response to stimuli. And in my case it was feeling belittled for my antipatriarchal, feminist perspective. I suspect this is why women also end up leaving this site when certain hot topics come up - because feminism is too easily associated with one political view or other, or certain beliefs or stances. 

 

In any case there was an apology and the topic doesn't need to be continued. I just wanted to explain my reaction, mostly to the people who think that taking offense at what other people say is somehow a sign of weakness. Knowing your "triggers" is actually quite important in the field of psychology in terms of interpersonal relations. 

 

Edit: for those people who consider strong emotion a sign of weakness, I hope you're aware of the patriarchal context: emotion was considered "feminine" and thus weak, and this is where the origin of such a belief lies. 

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On 4/15/2020 at 1:25 PM, florduh said:

In my experience even churches that emphasize the leadership role of men, the idea is that the man is the designated spiritual leader of the household, not a slave driver that makes his wife wash the car and mow the lawn.

I find it pure irony that the population who supports the church and is represented there in most services by a 2 to 1 margin are to be led by the person whose only qualification is gender. I am not qualified to lead anyone just because I was born with a dick. It is absolutely ridiculous that even in something as deeply personal as prayer a woman has to "get led". If I need to get led to God by another human then that is a God of which I have no need

 

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On 4/15/2020 at 6:04 PM, Jagdish said:

It is a term Rush Limbaugh came up with. He hates everyone and women who can walk and chew gum are to him particularly repugnant.

Yes, Feminazi is a Rushism, but you cold not be more incorrect and inaccurate about the rest of you statement.

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1 hour ago, Jagdish said:

led by the person whose only qualification is gender

Only qualification?

Really?

You REALLY believe that?

 

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1 hour ago, MOHO said:

Only qualification?

Really?

You REALLY believe that?

 

So, you're really going to go to bat for patriarchy in the churches? 

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Hmmm, there seems to be some misread posts in this thread. 

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Guest freedwoman

Oh yeah there are some really repulsive atheist men. The Amazing Atheist is just one. 

 

I'm done showing men respect just for being men. Most don't give me respect in return. 

 

From now on I only respect respectable people regardless of what chromosomes they have or lack. 

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Guest freedwoman

No one is brave all the time no matter how brave they are. No one is all knowing no matter how wise and smart they are. No one is bullet proof no matter how strong they are. Plus we're all gonna die someday. All this includes men too. So yeah, there's that. 🙄

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1 hour ago, freedwoman said:

Oh yeah there are some really repulsive atheist men. The Amazing Atheist is just one. 

 

Why is he repulsive? I can think of some repulsive men, I wouldn't have thought TAA was one of them. Not that I follow him closely.

 

1 hour ago, freedwoman said:

I'm done showing men respect just for being men. Most don't give me respect in return.

 

No one should be shown respect for some characteristic that they had no contribution to - be that Gender, or wealth, status etc

 

1 hour ago, freedwoman said:

From now on I only respect respectable people regardless of what chromosomes they have or lack. 

 

 

That's a good way to think about respect. Respect those who have earned respect, not those who demand it just because they say so.

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14 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

So, you're really going to go to bat for patriarchy in the churches? 

 

I will probably regret responding to this comment but, in the interest of clarity... here goes...

 

@TruthSeeker:

You DO understand that I was responding appropriately to a the claim, as I understood it, that pastors only qualification is plumbing. They usually have some education, formal or otherwise, in Bible scripture, ancient history (accurate or otherwise), and possibly even some counseling.

 

So, how does  pointing that out indicate, in any way, shape or form, that I am a proponent of patriarchy?

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This shit is being moved to ToT where it belongs.  Imagine some newly deconverted lurker, or some still believing christian struggling with their faith finding this in the Testimonial forum.

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17 hours ago, freedwoman said:

Oh yeah there are some really repulsive atheist men. The Amazing Atheist is just one. 

 

I'm done showing men respect just for being men. Most don't give me respect in return. 

 

From now on I only respect respectable people regardless of what chromosomes they have or lack. 

The amazing atheist on YouTube is my friend TJ that I went to college with and he isn't repulsive. If you actually got to know him personally you might like him. I haven't watched very many of his videos but I know him well enough to say he is a decent person.

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Guest freedwoman
9 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

The amazing atheist on YouTube is my friend TJ that I went to college with and he isn't repulsive. If you actually got to know him personally you might like him. I haven't watched very many of his videos but I know him well enough to say he is a decent person.

Sorry. Please don't tell him I said that. I don't wanna get my ass kicked again. I have too many enemies as it is. Thanks. I won't name anyone else again. It's just too stupid and unsafe. Take care. Stay safe. 

✌️

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Guest freedwoman

I need to stop being so judgmental and stop coming to rash conclusions. You know what they say about assumptions? 

 

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5 hours ago, MOHO said:

 

I will probably regret responding to this comment but, in the interest of clarity... here goes...

 

@TruthSeeker:

You DO understand that I was responding appropriately to a the claim, as I understood it, that pastors only qualification is plumbing. They usually have some education, formal or otherwise, in Bible scripture, ancient history (accurate or otherwise), and possibly even some counseling.

 

So, how does  pointing that out indicate, in any way, shape or form, that I am a proponent of patriarchy?

bwahajaha. Clearly you haven't heard of my ex church, and many others, if you don't think that some people get the title/role just because they possess a dick. At best, all they ever did was sit in a church bench and learned to mimic the crap they listened to. 

In my ex church, in all of North America, there was ONE ordained pastor who earned a degree overseas, and earlier this year he was kicked out of the church because he imagined himself too educated and enlightened and the church thought he was too progressive and "had the wrong spirit." 

 

I come from a church where they literally pride themselves on not having an education in scripture - it's actually one of the criteria that will best ensure your place in the pastor's chair - because you don't hold that ambition and won't get too uppity. And you'll just parrot what you were told and question nothing. 

 

By the way, any women who imagines herself good enough to pastor is immediately ex communicated because it's unscriptural. 

 

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On 4/16/2020 at 11:12 PM, TruthSeeker0 said:

I just wanted to explain my reaction, mostly to the people who think that taking offense at what other people say is somehow a sign of weakness. Knowing your "triggers" is actually quite important in the field of psychology in terms of interpersonal relations. 

I agree that knowing your triggers is quite important and also agree that we all have them. For me - and I can only speak for me - I am learning that reacting to a trigger is actually a choice. I know this seems counter-intuitive, especially when we use language like "He/she made me so angry," as if someone can make us be angry. So for example, I've taken care of many patients (men) who try to assault me (verbally, physically, sexually), but they are almost always delirious or suffering from diseases that affect their judgment, inhibition, cognition, etc. so I choose not to take it as a personal attack when this happens.  This is instinctive for me, but I can't say that is true for many of my colleagues who become very irritated with patients who behave inappropriately.

I am now trying to apply this approach to other areas in my life. If someone makes an offensive statement (and does not have brain damage as an excuse LOL) , I try to assume it comes from a lack of emotional awareness or an inability to care deeply about hurting others, and that's okay. Everybody has their strengths and weaknesses. I employ meditation techniques that help me to recognize words are just words, literally sounds emitted from someone's mouth. The amount of impact that words have is entirely up to the  person listening/reading. How else could it be that the bible and those who preach it, for example, have magical sway over thousands of people, but for others (like us) it just sounds like comical nonsense?

Of course, none of this to say that I don't ever lose my cool or ever react to triggers anymore, because I certainly do! I'm just trying to (slowly) change my perception. Knowing I have a choice can be very empowering.

I feel like Ive just rambled completely off topic. . . Sorry!

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57 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

bwahajaha. Clearly you haven't heard of my ex church, and many others, if you don't think that some people get the title/role just because they possess a dick. At best, all they ever did was sit in a church bench and learned to mimic the crap they listened to. 

In my ex church, in all of North America, there was ONE ordained pastor who earned a degree overseas, and earlier this year he was kicked out of the church because he imagined himself too educated and enlightened and the church thought he was too progressive and "had the wrong spirit." 

 

I come from a church where they literally pride themselves on not having an education in scripture - it's actually one of the criteria that will best ensure your place in the pastor's chair - because you don't hold that ambition and won't get too uppity. And you'll just parrot what you were told and question nothing. 

 

By the way, any women who imagines herself good enough to pastor is immediately ex communicated because it's unscriptural. 

 

Well you are past that now so don't dwell on it any longer - otherwise those asshatting-prickfaced-mysognistic-terdbrained dillweeds will just have more of an impact on you.

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1 hour ago, MOHO said:

Well you are past that now so don't dwell on it any longer - otherwise those asshatting-prickfaced-mysognistic-terdbrained dillweeds will just have more of an impact on you.

I don't. Was simply pointing out that indeed there are asshat churches where having a dick is the one criteria to "pastor". The furthur I get from that place the more turdbrained it appears to me. 

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On 4/28/2020 at 2:37 PM, MOHO said:

Yes, Feminazi is a Rushism, but you cold not be more incorrect and inaccurate about the rest of you statement.

In what sense??? I have heard him berate, denigrate impune and just plain trash any woman who can speak intelligently and articulately. He has referred to feminists as “feminazis,” Georgetown Law student Sandra Fluke as a “slut” and a “prostitute” and female cabinet members as “Sex-cretary of State” and “Sex-cretary of [Health and Human Services].”  Do some reading and try honestly try to open your mind

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13 hours ago, Jagdish said:

In what sense??? I have heard him berate, denigrate impune and just plain trash any woman who can speak intelligently and articulately. He has referred to feminists as “feminazis,” Georgetown Law student Sandra Fluke as a “slut” and a “prostitute” and female cabinet members as “Sex-cretary of State” and “Sex-cretary of [Health and Human Services].”  Do some reading and try honestly try to open your mind

I have listened to Rush off and on for decades and have never, ever, heard him trash anyone for speaking their minds. I have never heard him trash women just for the their gender. 

 

That said for you to say "Do some reading and try to open your mind" when you have no clue as to how much reading I have done and how open minded I am IS, in fact, an attempt to deride, denigrate, put me down, and slander my intelligence - simply because you disagree with me. If you want so see someone who needs to open his mind - look in the mirror!

 

Keep in mind Rush is, first and foremost, an entertainer. Each time Each time someone responds to his off the cuff humor his entertainment value is increased.

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21 minutes ago, MOHO said:

I have listened to Rush off and on for decades and have never, ever, heard him trash anyone for speaking their minds. I have never heard him trash women just for the their gender. 

 

That said for you to say "Do some reading and try to open your mind" when you have no clue as to how much reading I have done and how open minded I am IS, in fact, an attempt to deride, denigrate, put me down, and slander my intelligence - simply because you disagree with me. If you want so see someone who needs to open his mind - look in the mirror!

 

Keep in mind Rush is, first and foremost, an entertainer. Each time Each time someone responds to his off the cuff humor his entertainment value is increased.

I do and I see you

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50 minutes ago, Jagdish said:

I do and I see you

That was a good one!

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