I desire to be desired

[Fweethawt]

That can be a hard thing to deal with.  To change from believing you are desired by the most important being in the Universe - to believing that is not the case after all.  Man, now that can be a bummer.

 

Yeah... No shit! Just about everyone here has gone through that.

 

The change in status can be like a kick in the teeth to one's self-image.

 

(A fella could really get depressed when going through that kind of shock).

 

-Dennis

 

Read the last paragraph in my post here ----> Click here.

[Guest Slayer-2004]

you could just post in off topic ...

[Fweethawt]

you could just post in off topic ...

 

Huh?

[chefranden]

Here is something I find interesting: John Piper, (one of the men who I respect because I appreciate his understanding about what the Bible teaches), feels strongly that God tells us that we need to desire Him, because if we set anything or anyone else in the position of who (or what) we most desire, we will eventually end up disappointed.

 

Some thoughts, Dennis:

 

Have you given any real consideration to the Buddha's notion that suffering is caused by desire?

 

How would you explain the fact that many here have desired god for many years and were disappointed, some very very disappointed?

 

As a Calvinist, how do you reconcile Irristiable Grace with this freely given desire? Apparently, you have no choice but to desire god. Apparently I have been appointed not to desire god, which would explain why 3 decades of desire ended in atheism -- that is if god is real.

[SOIL]

Poor-poor John Piper...

 

He obviously never experienced people who thought this exact way only to realize that not only were they disappointed, they were devastated once they found that the thing in which they desired most didn't even exist.

 

This is one of the reasons there is ExChristian.net for cryin' out loud. Once people realize their imaginary friend isn't there, they usually need people -- REAL people -- to fall back on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fweetthawt,

 

(Btw, is your handle expressing the idea "Sweet Thought", or "Sweet Tart", - or something altogether different?)

 

Back on track now....

...

 

Concerning your middle paragraph (about "once they found that the thing in which they desired most didn't even exist") - I suppose my question is: How could anyone (conclusively) find that to be the case, while still living in this earth-suit body?

 

Actually (in my most cynical moments) I would not say 'the thing they desired most' - rather, I would say the "one" they desired most. Relationship is what (who) I desire (even more than things).

 

The eternal perspective is what (I think) keeps people Christians - there is massive significance riding on whether people continue to live spiritually - after we die physically - and whether a personal relationship with the most important - one - who who will be even more real in our afterlife, is available - both in this life, and more importantly, in the the life to come.

 

...

 

Concerning your last paragraph (about "they usually need people -- REAL people -- to fall back on" - I suppose my question is: Will they be even more disappointed in the "REAL people" they are now trying to fall back on (instead)?

 

I like this basic idea :

 

We desire a relationship with God, who will not disappoint us - because we are made in such a way - the one who we desire, is in fact real.

 

(Sorry, I can't express that thought as well as C.S. Lewis - and others, like Piper - but I have tried to put it in my own words - rather than just giving you another link - to something someone else has said better than I can).

 

Below is also something that I picked up mostly from C.S. Lewis' thoughts:

 

We desire food - yep, food exists!

 

We desire water - yep, water exits!

 

We desire pleasure - yep, pleasure exists!

 

We desire sex - yep, sex exists!

 

We desire power - yep, power exits(?)

 

We desire a relationship with God ....... ???

 

As for me, I say: ""Yep, God exists!"

 

-Dennis

 

<edited in P.S.

 

I suppose some deists think "God exits" - there are times in Christians lives - where it "feels like" God has exited : for instance - you may want to read some about Henry Nouwen in the "One long scream" portion of the article: The surprise in suffering >

[Skankboy]

"We desire a relationship with God ....... ???

 

As for me, I say: ""Yep, God exits!"

 

But Dennis, I don't desire a relationship w/god. I did, but it was because I was led to believe that was the case.

 

Now I know that it is these desires, these attachments, that are usually the cause of our suffering.

 

I don't desire water, I REQUIRE it. I don't desire food, I REQUIRE it.

 

IMOHO

[SOIL]

Have you given any real consideration to the Buddha's notion that suffering is caused by desire?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No.

 

How would you explain the fact that many here have desired god for many years and were disappointed, some very very disappointed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See the article I mentioned in my edited P.S in my above post One long scream - maybe we can both read the book that is mentioned there: The Inner Voice of Love ?

 

As a Calvinist, how do you reconcile Irristiable Grace with this freely given desire?  Apparently, you have no choice but to desire god.  Apparently I have been appointed not to desire god, which would explain why 3 decades of desire ended in atheism -- that is if god is real.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Though I do admire some of the Calvinist ways of understanding the Bible, I believe that both free will and predestination are equally taught (side by side) in scripture.

 

Though the desire is free given - it requires a lot of work on people's part, to get to a place where we will receive it. Perhaps we must voluntarily chose to give back some of our free will - motivated by the desire - we have to enjoy a good relationship with the one who gave it to us?

 

Some are willing to wait until after death before we make our final judgment concerning whether we are truly "disappointed" in God.

 

Sigh, I really don't know what to say to you Randen, my heart understands what you are saying. I have said the same thing (both to God and those I love) - and it just hurts the ones I love - and I think I even have (in a liberal way of speaking) felt God's tears falling on me.

 

 

-Dennis

[Amethyst]

We desire a relationship with God, who will not disappoint us - because we are made in such a way - the one who we desire, is in fact real.

 

I personally desire relationships with real human beings, because humans are social creatures. I was *extremely* disappointed when I realized that Christianity was a complete fairy tale. But that doesn't necessarily exclude the existence of a higher being or life force -- just that if there is one, it's not what many here have termed Biblegod.

[SOIL]

...

Now I know that it is these desires, these attachments, that are usually the cause of our suffering. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Skankboy,

 

Is this coming from what Chef referred to as "Buddha's notion" - regardless - I don't buy it. When I enjoy really good sex I don't complain much about how my desires have been so bad to me!

 

I don't desire water, I REQUIRE it.  I don't desire food, I REQUIRE it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you REQUIRE sex, or do you desire it?

 

Do you REQUIRE power and/or respect, or do you desire it?

 

I guess the folks who end up in hell, will not REQUIRE God (since He will apparently have forsaken them) - yet I suppose they will continue to live on (that is, if the Bible and my current interpretation of it are both correct) but once at that point, I am not sure if they will desire God anymore, relief yes - but God ???

 

IMOHO

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but I haven't learned yet what this 'IMOHO' means?

 

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

I personally desire relationships with real human beings, because humans are social creatures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amethyst,

 

I (likewise, being a social creature) also desire relationships with real human beings. However, I don't think any of these temporary relationships will be as good as - an eternal relationship with God - many things about us "human beings" change over time (hopefully - but not always - by getting better) - however the good parts about God don't get worse - (again, if the Bible and my interpretation of it are both correct).

 

I was *extremely* disappointed when I realized that Christianity was a complete fairy tale.  But that doesn't necessarily exclude the existence of a higher being or life force -- just that if there is one, it's not what many here have termed Biblegod.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, I don't know if we can be certain about whether Christianity really is/was a "complete fairy tale" until after we are dead.

 

I understand what you mean about the "higher being or life force" and the idea of "Biblegod". I don't think any book (including the Bible) is capable of comprehensively defining who God is. The reality of God, I expect, does in fact differ in many important ways than "what many here have termed Biblegod" - and likewise, the reality of who God is - is probably different (in many important ways) than "Qurangod", or "Torahgod", or "Humanistgod" etc....

 

In addition to a book, I think we also need a presence of God (Spirit) which is in some ways similar to the presence we feel when we are with people. Christian's refer to this as the Holy Spirit.

 

<Sorry, but I really have to go (for now) - I am supposed to be fixing a bug that has surfaced in the software product that I wrote and support.>

 

-Dennis

[Cerise]

however the good parts about God don't get worse

 

What about the bad parts about God? Do they get eternally worse?

 

You've built yourself a tower of "if" Dennis. If my interpretation of the Bible is correct. If the Bible itself is true. If every other culture's religions are wrong. If If If...

 

then maybe I'll be saved.

 

My tower of "if" already fell, Dennis. If I get a sign. If I can pray hard enough. If I hang on a little more. If I follow this person. If I crawl a little more. If I cry out a little more. If I trust just a little bit more. If If If...

 

then maybe I'll be saved.

 

These days it's a different tower, if only I had gone to someone who could actually help me instead of god...maybe I would have been saved.

 

If If If...

[Caretaker]

Fweethawt = Free Thought with a lithp

[SOIL]

What about the bad parts about God?  Do they get eternally worse?...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise,

 

Judging by the difference between the teachings in the Old Testament, compared to those in the New Testament, I don't the trend goes in that direction.

 

These days it's a different tower, if only I had gone to someone who could actually help me instead of god...maybe I would have been saved....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Saved from what?

 

-Dennis

[Cerise]

Does it matter? Do you really need a list of what I might have been saved from? Would it change anything about the failure of a god?

[Amethyst]

Amethyst,

 

I (likewise, being a social creature) also desire relationships with real human beings. However, I don't think any of these temporary relationships will be as good as - an eternal relationship with God - many things about us "human beings" change over time (hopefully - but not always - by getting better) - however the good parts about God don't get worse - (again, if the Bible and my interpretation of it are both correct).

 

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that your version of god exists. I would rather have a real relationship with a real person, as imperfect as it may be, than a relationship with an imaginary friend. It's healthier to have relationships with people than with a daydream. Would you have a relationship with a unicorn or a pixie also? Those things don't exist, as much as I wish they did.

 

Relationships with others, I believe, is what life is about -- how we interact with others and what we learn from them. Not how we fantazise about an imaginary being.

[Purple Rhino]

Judging by the difference between the teachings in the Old Testament, compared to those in the New Testament, I don't the trend goes in that direction.

...-Dennis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SOIL,

 

When you use a phrase with the word trend, To me it implies change over a period of time. If God were truely alpha, omega, etc why would there be any trend?

 

As God is described and believed throughout the bible isn't one of the biggest points that he knew/knows all outcomes? Even with free-will thrown in wouldn't he have already known YOUR choice?

 

PR

[SOIL]

Does it matter?  Do you really need a list of what I might have been saved from?  Would it change anything about the failure of a god?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise,

 

Good question, actually I'm not exactly sure why I asked.

 

Maybe I was just thinking, (back in my subconscious somewhere) that the idea of a just God's existence might be the reason why you feel it is appropriate for you to be saved (from whatever).

 

For instance (in my case anyway), I think I need to be saved from the effects of injustice, because I think a just God exists, and he desires for this world to be a just place. I think it is proper for God to see what he desires come to fruition, because he made the world and he was willing to suffer in the process of making it possible (for him to continue to be just while also being able) to extend mercy to me, in order to reestablish a good relationship with the kind of us folks (people) who messed up his creation/plan in the first place.

 

I get a sense (feeling?) that something is just not correct - when I am treated unjustly - so I think I need to be "saved" from any and all effects which are not in line with the intended cause (the original purpose of the one who made both me and my oppressor).

 

I suppose one of the reasons I have such a hard time desiring to accept the idea of evolution (minus any original intention) - is because under that worldview - I think I would have an even harder time explaining why I feel so strongly that injustice is somehow "wrong" (e.g. I don't see evolution appealing to a variance from a plan, in order to discern the difference between right and wrong).

 

-Dennis

[Cerise]

Justice and vengeance are two sides of the same coin. Whatever it is your God does all day Dennis, it's either both these or neither of these things.

 

I vote for neither, as "nothing" seems to be a lot of what you get, when you place your trust in god.

[chefranden]

One of the reasons Christianity is so popular (I think anyway), is because we learn God desires human fellowship so much that he has gone to the trouble to personally identify with humans by becoming one himself. He didn't choose only to identify with the big shot category of humans (rich and powerful and snobby), but rather He chose to be born in a stable, and to eventually become hated (rather than desired by local important people) - and finally even to suffer physically and spiritually (as anyone who wants to identify with humans must do). The New Testament says God did this.

 

The reason Christianity is so popular is that Christians have a lot of babies. If your nice daddy was a mullah instead of a preacher, what would you be?

 

We'll Paul certainly writes that nonsense. But I wouldn't trust Paul any farther than I could throw Pat Robertson or James Dobson. It's too bad the real disciples, if there were any, didn't write anything. Or maybe they did and the Church burned it.

[SOIL]

The reason Christianity is so popular is that Christians have a lot of babies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chef,

When Christianity first started, the only babies were the folks who were born again.

 

If your nice daddy was a mullah instead of a preacher, what would you be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a very good question, and a variation of it has been on my mind some recently. My oldest daughter is seriously considering a marriage with a very good man who was brought up in a family where he was taught (especially by his grandfather) about Mohammed and Islam. He is very reluctant to move more toward Christianity. This man has treated my daughter much better (in both my opinion and my daughter's) when compared with her former Christian husband (during courtship anyway). This has been difficult for me to understand. Maybe that is one of the contributing reasons to why I have been re-examining my Christian faith.

 

Actually I remember relating to him, the incident I described in the thread: Papaw, "Is God real?" or just pretend?. I mentioned, in a few years it could be his son who I am "tucking in" (if he visits mamaw and papaw's house) - and I told him how I would answer if the little guy were to ask me something to this effect:

 

"Papaw, momma says Jesus is the most important person and we are supposed to do like he did, and daddy says Mohammed is the most important - who do you like the best?"

 

I told him (if such a scene were to happen at this time) I would answer something like this:

 

"Well, I guess it depends on whether you want people to love each other all the time - or maybe only sometimes. As far as I know, both Jesus and Mohammed had enemies - some bad people wanted to kill both of them. Jesus decided to heal even some of his enemies (like Malchus' servant), and he eventually even let some of his enemies kill him. But judging only from what I have heard, Mohammed sometimes decided to kill his enemies. Now, not all people who like Jesus - act like he did - and that is also the same about people who like Mohammed best. But I am mostly interested in just the leader person who each group says is their favorite.

 

(I was up front with the man who may soon be my son-in-law, and I mentioned to him - that I understand as the little guy gets bigger - he might bring up how God in the Old Testament told Moses and Joshua to kill a lot of people, and how even in the New Testament (in Revelations) it says Jesus will someday kill a whole bunch of people. But I also said if my future (possible) grandson - does mention those things to me - I would most likely answer him something like this:

 

"All I know at this point is that when God was a person (Jesus) - and he was living in a world that is a lot like the one in which I live - he told us regular folks (those of us who are not God), that we should love even our enemies and do good things for them. Jesus even asked God to forgive the bad people who hurt him so bad, and killed him. What God did in the Old Testament days, I really don't understand, and I even don't personally agree with many of them, what Jesus will do in the future, - I guess is his business - but I am mainly concerned about what Jesus said I am supposed to do."

 

We'll Paul certainly writes that nonsense. But I wouldn't trust Paul any farther than I could throw Pat Robertson or James Dobson.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have gone through periods of my life where I didn't like Paul's writings at all. It seemed to me that he was preaching a different "gospel" verses a lot of what I read (in the red words). However, I am not bothered so much about that now.

 

I think in many cases, the Bible almost overstates points at different ends of several different "spectrums" - maybe, in an attempt to get us folks to end up in the middle - and/or eventually reach some balance. (G.K. Chesterton - doesn't agree with this point of view - he thinks God's truth is paradoxical - to humans - and burns equally brilliant at both ends of the logical spectrum - that is, if I understand him correctly).

 

It does seem to me that the way God deals with people has changed throughout the history of humans on this planet, maybe different aspects of God's character have been more pronounced at different times in history. Also Jesus lived in the transition time - the law was not completely fulfilled until Jesus' crucifixion - his victory over the temptation (among other things) to "do it my way", is what made it possible for many of the things Paul wrote about to be true.

 

It's too bad the real disciples, if there were any, didn't write anything. Or maybe they did and the Church burned it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Concerning the "real disciples" not writing anything: I am wondering if there are some "real disciples" alive today and if they actually do write (and do) things. I'm not so sure God's revelation stopped completely when the "holy books" were completed (that is, the ones which have since been canonized into what we call the "Bible").

 

I suppose you can go ahead and say I am a heretic again. <grin>

 

No problem really, I think I am sort of getting used to it. I suspect my Sunday School teachers have wondered if that might be the correct thing to say, during many of our recent Sunday morning discussions.

 

At any rate, actually, I think I might have heard some things - even here, in this discussion area - which may have come from God (in one way or another). I certainly was taught something very good, when I read one of IBF's posts - about how I can miss seeing who my daughter really is - if I am afraid she won't turn out into exactly the person I might plan to show off to my friends (did I get that correct, Dennis?). When a person loves other people - the way Jesus said we should - is that person acting like a "real disciple"?

 

Randen, when you were telling me about the way the Iraqi children were hurt by the sanctions, was I reading something written by a "real disciple"?

 

Maybe I have gone crazy (I don't always think in the cookie-cutter mold), but I love Jesus, and I sense his Spirit, sometimes in places which some religious people might think unlikely. However, didn't Jesus himself find a lot of very cool stuff as he hung out with folks who who knew they wouldn't win the approval of big-name religious leaders?

 

 

-Dennis

[Amethyst]

It's not Jesus' spirit, IMHO -- it's the human spirit, and that's something that even the fundiest fundie has buried deep down inside them -- if it wasn't, they wouldn't have sought out a religion they originally believed to be about love and kindness (at least, the ones who weren't just born into it). Unfortunately, the brainwashing buries that 99% of the time, so they act like rabid judgemental cultists, spiteful and hateful of everyone who isn't in The Real True Church .

 

I believe the human spirit to be a lot more kind and loving than anything I saw in the fundamentalist, conservative, Lutheran church where I grew up in. We're not supposed to be prejudiced and judgemental and to hate anyone who's different from us. If we were, society as a whole would've failed millennia ago when the first cult started back in Babylon, or wherever. But it didn't, because the human spirit perseveres. That's the one good thing about the human race.

[SOIL]

When you use a phrase with the word trend, To me it implies change over a period of time. If God were truely alpha, omega, etc why would there be any trend?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

PR,

 

Good question.

 

I don't often use something I have heard Jack Nicholson say (in a movie) when I try to explain about why I think God may have acted in differing ways throughout history - but hey, I have "free will" - so I guess I can do whatever I want!

 

Remember (I think it was in some movie about marines), where Jack's character was yelling at a young military lawyer, (played by Tom Cruise, I think), something to this effect:

 

"You can't handle the truth!"

 

Well, sometimes I think maybe God expresses himself differently to people who live at different times in history - as well as maybe even people who live in differing cultures - in ways which we can "handle".

 

Then again, at other times, I have wondered if maybe God himself learned a few things when he became a man and walked a mile in our sandals, so to speak. It seems like that made some difference (at least it does to me anyway).

 

As God is described and believed throughout the bible isn't one of the biggest points that he knew/knows all outcomes? Even with free-will thrown in wouldn't he have already known YOUR choice?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not so sure how that should make all that much difference to me? Feel free to elaborate though - it's getting late - my brain is about drained for the evening, and I can't even seem to remember (just now) very much about was has been discussed earlier.

 

Sorry about that! - btw PR, I somehow had missed seeing your post earlier - maybe when you posted, I was busy typing some other post, in a vain attempt to wax as eloquent as I could.

 

(However, I seem to be fresh out of wax just now. So I guess dull will have to do, bein's how I have apparently used up all of my shiny stuff.)

 

-Dennis

[Guest Breakerslion]

Hmmm. Where to start? These threads travel so quickly. You started with a question about "F**K You!" (can I s-a-y, "fuck" on this thread? If you know what it means, how can you be offended? If you don't know what it means, how can you be offended? You really think your kids don't use it?) Anyway, English is a funny language. "F**k you" is a shortened version of, "Go and F**k yourself." F**k, in this case, being used in the sense of se*ual gratification with no thought for your partner, like date rape, in this case yourself. I hope that clears up any misconceptions.

 

As for the rampant Paulism aspect of the Christian church, he lost my respect when he said in one of his letters, something like, "Don't trust the philosophers!" You just know they intellectually kicked his a** and laughed him out of town.

 

As for the Christian god, why would a creator create a universe with physical laws and then run around breaking them?

[Fweethawt]

Fweetthawt,

 

(Btw, is your handle expressing the idea "Sweet Thought", or "Sweet Tart", - or something altogether different?)

Ummm.... it's something altogether different.

 

Concerning your middle paragraph (about "once they found that the thing in which they desired most didn't even exist") - I suppose my question is:  How could anyone (conclusively)  find that to be the case, while still living in this earth-suit body?

Because dead people don't have an opportunity to be honest with themselves.

 

Actually (in my most cynical moments) I would not say 'the thing they desired most' - rather, I would say the "one" they desired most.  Relationship is what (who) I desire (even more than things).

The end result of this leads back to a comment that Chef made. I don't know if it was this thread or another but, he explained that if there is one thing that humans have succeeded in, it is the fact that we've taught ourselves to become disconnected with one another.

 

When taking the big-picture into consideration, I easily see how religion is responsible for this. The religions teach people to seek a relationship with something that isn't even there. While so much time and energy are spent in doing this, we become disconnected with the real people around us. So much so, that we seem to have forgotten how to connect with others. So, from my point of view, I see this seek-God-above-all-else-view as being the very thing that causes the disconnect that Chef mentioned and in turn has created a breeding ground for intolerance and much misunderstanding.

 

The eternal perspective is what (I think) keeps people Christians - there is massive significance riding on whether people continue to live spiritually - after we die physically - and whether a personal relationship with the most important - one - who who will be even more real in our afterlife, is available - both in this life, and more importantly, in the the life to come.

Wow! You almost came right out and admitted that it's all a big gamble! Good for you!

 

Actually, I don't see where Christianity™ can honestly lay claim to having an eternal perspective. A circular perspective, yes. But not an eternal one. From a realistic standpoint, I'd say that this is why the religion itself is more conservative than it is progressive. You know, with its denial of facts an all.

 

Concerning your last paragraph (about "they usually need people -- REAL people -- to fall back on" - I suppose my question is: Will they be even more disappointed in the "REAL people" they are now trying to fall back on (instead)?

 

I like this basic idea :

 

We desire a relationship with God, who will not disappoint us - because we are made in such a way - the one who we desire, is in fact real.

If the one who you desire is real, then why do you have to spend a lifetime seeking after that relationship? If the one who you desire is incapable of disappointing you, why does it have to be sought after? Could it be because of the disappointment in the realization that it's not there to begin with?

 

This is where the religion clutches the believers by the short and curlies. It keeps people tied up in seeking something that isn't there, all the while the churches are raking in the subscription fees.

 

(Sorry, I can't express that thought as well as C.S. Lewis - and others, like Piper - but I have tried to put it in my own words - rather than just giving you another link - to something someone else has said better than I can).

There are times where I enjoy reading the links that you provide. You will be able to note this further down in this post where I comment on the One Long Scream link that you gave.

 

Below is also something that I picked up mostly from C.S. Lewis' thoughts:

 

We desire food - yep, food exists!

 

We desire water - yep, water exits!

 

We desire pleasure - yep, pleasure exists!

 

We desire sex - yep, sex exists!

 

We desire power - yep, power exits(?)

 

We desire a relationship with God ....... ???

 

As for me, I say: ""Yep, God exists!"

 

As others have stated, and I agree, you have confused desire with requirements. Desires are things that you can live a perfectly healthy life without while requirements are necessities.

 

My list would look something like this:

 

We require food - yep, food exists!

 

We require water - yep, water exits!

 

We desire pleasure - yep, pleasure exists, but I can live without it!

 

We desire sex - yep, sex exists, but I can live without it!

 

We desire power - yep, power exits! --- I can't relate to this one. Sorry.

 

We are taught that we are required to have a relationship with God, and that teaching created a desire to fulfill that requirement. However, once I realized that the relationship was a one-sided deal, a (mental) bell rang and woke me from my delusion.

 

As for me, I say: "Nope, this God that they have fed me doesn't exist."

 

I suppose some deists think "God exits"

Well... YEAH! Otherwise they wouldn't be Deists.

 

- there are times in Christians lives - where it "feels like" God has exited :  for instance - you may want to read some about  Henry Nouwen in the "One long scream" portion of the article: The surprise in suffering >

 

I read that One Long Scream portion of the article.

 

To me, there is something extremely devious about the ~~~"spirit"~~~ in which it was written.

 

This quite clearly is not the case. And even if it were, the correction would still be motivated by the Father's love, not his anger. So it makes no sense to beat ourselves up when we are suffering. Even if we are suffering as a result of wrongdoing, we are suffering redemptively. And if we are suffering as a result of wrongdoing, how are we supposed to know? The Spirit may reveal something to us, but nothing in this passage suggests that we should go looking for a connection. In fact, this passage suggests that our response to all suffering, regardless of whether it represents correction for sin, should be seen as motivated by the Father's love for us and indicative of his acceptance of us. In every instance of suffering, the follower of Jesus Christ has every reason not to mutter, "I must have done something wrong" but to proclaim, "The Father must love me very much."

 

The next section treats the end result of training. But the first thing we need to know about it is the motive behind it and that it indicates relationship with the Father. The first thing to do when suffering is not wonder, "What am I supposed to learn?" but to affirm, "I am the Father's son, loved by him!"

 

The highlighted part is the overall lesson in that article.

 

After reading that article, especially this part, I wondered how someone in this particular frame of mind could come to the conclusion that they are worshipping a good God instead of a demon.

 

Yes, do not wonder about learning, just know that you are loved, especially when you suffer!

 

Yeah, I can see why dictators love this particular theology.

 

Eat it up! Spread it around! Teach everyone that suffering is good, but do so in the name of love!

 

Heck, I'm half-tempted to believe that there's somebody more evil than Satan himself that thought up this type of thinking. From what I know, (according to the Bible, of course) even he couldn't come up with something this messed up.

[Fweethawt]

"Papaw, momma says Jesus is the most important person and we are supposed to do like he did, and daddy says Mohammed is the most important - who do you like the best?"

 

I told him (if such a scene were to happen at this time) I would answer something like this:

 

"Well, I guess it depends on whether you want people to love each other all the time - or maybe only sometimes. As far as I know, both Jesus and Mohammed had enemies - some bad people wanted to kill both of them. Jesus decided to heal even some of his enemies (like Malchus' servant), and he eventually even let some of his enemies kill him.  But judging only from what I have heard,  Mohammed sometimes decided to kill his enemies. Now, not all people who like Jesus - act like he did - and that is also the same about people who like Mohammed best.  But I am mostly interested in just the leader person who each group says is their favorite.

 

(I was up front with the man who may soon be my son-in-law,  and I mentioned to him - that I understand as the little guy gets bigger - he might bring up how God in the Old Testament told Moses and Joshua to kill a lot of people, and how even in the New Testament (in Revelations) it says Jesus will someday kill a whole bunch of people. But I also said if my future (possible) grandson - does mention those things to me - I would most likely answer him something like this:

 

"All I know at this point is that when God was a person (Jesus) - and he was living in a world that is a lot like the one in which I live - he told us regular folks (those of us who are not God), that we should love even our enemies and do good things for them.  Jesus even asked God to forgive the bad people who  hurt him so bad, and killed him. What God did in the Old Testament days, I really don't understand, and I even don't personally agree with many of them, what Jesus will do in the future, - I guess is his business - but I am mainly concerned about what Jesus said I am supposed to do."

 

After reading this, I feel so sorry for your un-born grandchild. The unnecessary confusion that is going to be pounded into his/her head, is evil. There's no two ways about it.

 

The indoctrinated stubborness of both adult parties involved, all converging on the mind of one little child. What a shame...

 

There are four different outcomes that I can see in this childs future.

 

1: Mental devastation from conflicting doctrines. (possible suicide)

2: Eventually favoring Islam over Christianity and hating Christians.

3: Eventually favoring Christianity over Islam and hating Islamists. (is that what they're called?)

4: Eventually realizing both are bullshit and becoming something else that isn't, nor wants to be, violent toward either of those religions.

 

 

At this point, if you are a believer, I think it would be a righteous act to pray for option number four.

 

But don't mind me, I'm just a heathen. You know, a wolf in sheeps clothing'n stuff like that.