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Hi all,

 

My name is Marie and I posted here a few times already.

I really feel like I need some support... I have been struggling with the same issue for more than a year regarding christianity. I do believe there is thousands of evidence that proves christianity is not true. But... There is this thing (that I already posted about) that keeps me stuck in the fear that it might be true.

The thing is a calculation from genesis 1:1 that finds pi and the same calculation in john 1:1 finds e. If you google pi and e in the bible it will appear straight away.

I was never into numerology when I was a christian, and it's since I have been in the process of leaving the faith that I discovered numerology and that it frightens me. This thing of pi and e found in those 2 verses that are so closely linked theologically... I mean, it is just hard for me to see it as a simple coincidence, it seems too big.

 

I am on antianxiety and antidepressant medications because of this situation. I qlso have a psychiatrist. I have been on the path of leaving the faith because I was afraid I committed the unforgivable sin. So it has become vital for me to debunk this numerology thing, so that I can live normally again and not overwhelmed with constant anguishes and depression.

 

Can anyone help me debunk this thing mathematically? Prove that it is not that rare? Please do not just tell me "numerology is bullshit", that does not help me, and I really need help and I am really hopeful I can find some here...

 

Thank you 

Take care everyone 

 

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I know you believe now that if this coincidence were shown to be completely within the reasonable expectations of chance that your mental well being would greatly improve but I really doubt that that would be the case. The fact that you located this obscure bit of numerology (which has obviously left the atheist/agnostic community completely unimpressed) and allowed it to throw your world into a tailspin says more about how easily you are knocked off course than it does about supernatural phenomena. Please don't keep chasing phantom concerns. The answers you are looking for are inside of you not outside. I'm sorry to hear that you're so upset and hope you will find the very best way to move beyond you present difficulties and into a life that you really enjoy living. Best wishes for you and hopefully your therapy will help you find the inner peace you are seeking in the very near future.  

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If you turn a 6 upside down, it makes a 9.  That can't be a coincidence.  Therefore god exists, jesus really is The Truth, and heaven everlasting is our reward.

 

If this sounds silly to you, then ask yourself why it does but your post doesn't. 

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1 hour ago, DanForsman said:

I know you believe now that if this coincidence were shown to be completely within the reasonable expectations of chance that your mental well being would greatly improve but I really doubt that that would be the case. The fact that you located this obscure bit of numerology (which has obviously left the atheist/agnostic community completely unimpressed) and allowed it to throw your world into a tailspin says more about how easily you are knocked off course than it does about supernatural phenomena. Please don't keep chasing phantom concerns. The answers you are looking for are inside of you not outside. I'm sorry to hear that you're so upset and hope you will find the very best way to move beyond you present difficulties and into a life that you really enjoy living. Best wishes for you and hopefully your therapy will help you find the inner peace you are seeking in the very near future.  

 

Thank you for your very nice words, they are comforting to me.

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I agree with @DanForsman

 

But let’s say that a god exists who has an important message for us that was intended to be understood. Why didn’t he give us clear instructions for his message? Surely it is unreasonable to expect us to decipher complex codes. And surely god could have predicted the confusion it would cause amongst his people?
 

What would you say to a muslim who claims that the Quran numerology proves that Allah is the true god?

 

 

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Hi Marie.

 

I'm afraid I can't quite offer you a straight refutation of those particular "derivations" without more specifics, but I can offer you an anecdote, which you may or may not find helpful.

 

When I was in university studying mathematics, a few friends and I watched the movie The Number 23. Not a great film, but decent for a university party where alcohol is involved. Anyways, the next day I was in a particularly boring lecture, and for shits and giggles I decided to try to find 23 as many ways as I could using just the personal information that I could recall of the people who had been present the night before.

 

It didn't take long (less than half the lecture, in fact) for me to find 23 in 23 distinct ways. I stopped there, for obvious reasons. Then I proceeded to freak my friends out with what I had discovered.

 

The point is, if you know what number you are looking for, it's trivially easy to find it from any given starting point, so long as there are no actual restrictions on your methodology.

 

If you are still worried, I'll be happy to take an in depth look at any particular calculations that you are finding troubling. Just send a link, and I'll get right to it.

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Great responses from others so far.

 

@Man Having come from a Church that was obsessed at one point with this kind of bullshit (Yes it is bullshit) I am unimpressed when anybody starts spouting biblical numerology. 

 

We had a year or so where we studied pyramid numerology. You see apparently if you measure the great pyramid of Giza in certain ways (And you believe that Enoch built it with atomic power) then you can find anything. There is a score line in the pyramid and if you measure in inches (it doesn't work in metric... which should tell you something bout the cherry picked nature of the 'study') then you can find that it predicts exact years of events. If you assume the start is year zero and you count 4000 inches you get to AD 1 (Birth year of Jesus oh my) Count another 33 inches and you have the death... and apparently the line ran out at AD 1996. This coincided with passages in the Bible Code book (Another foray into more bullshit regarding the apparent mathematical ability of the bible to predict exact events) that predicted "friend delayed" in 1996. So the idea was that they rapture was going to occur in 1996 but that God (being friend) was delayed so the rapture would occur in some future year. Incidentally a great way to satiate peoples disappointment when the rapture didn't occur when predicted :D 

 

Hopefully you can see how this stuff is all blathering nonsense and very much cherry picked to suit a narrative.

 

 

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I agree with @DanForsman. If it were not this coincidence, it would likely be another throwing you off course and convincing you that a future in heaven or hell is at stake. What kind of loving God makes itself so complicated that people need to find "truth" from complicated coincidences? I could say a lot more about this god and "love" but I'll leave it at that for now. 

Stick with the therapy. And stick with the meds. And spend time on here, there's a lot off useful info to refute irrational fears. I hope you find peace of mind. 

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2 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

 

Stick with the therapy. And stick with the meds.  I hope you find peace of mind. 

 

DITTO!

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Hi Marie, I’m Katie. It’s good to have you here ☺️
 

I have a couple questions for you because I’d like to help but I have no knowledge of numerology other than I’ve aways chalked it up to superstition so haven’t read about it. I’m asking out of curiosity and don’t mean any kind of judgement or shame.  
 

What is it you find significant that Gen 1:1 and John 1:1 find pi&e? 
 

You mentioned you didn’t believe numerology until after you left christianity. What was it that led you to give weight to numerology once you left?

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Numerology, like astrology, is finding patterns and assigning meaning to them. People assign meaning to them because they have no intrinsic meaning. A more interesting use of you time might be investigating if we invented mathematics or discovered it. 😏

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1 hour ago, florduh said:

 A more interesting use of you time might be investigating if we invented mathematics or discovered it. 😏

 

It is at best tangential to the thread, but I have heard it said that a true empiricist is a person who believes that the series of positive integers was discovered one at a time.

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From what I could find they derived pi by looking at gen 1:1 and: "The number of letters x the product of the letters divided by The number of words x the product of the words. 

You get 3.1416... The value of π to four decimal places!" 

But it isn't correct from digit 5 onwards, so it isn't actually pi, just kind of close. 

It also only works using hebrew, while John 1:1 only works in Greek. 

 

So in a specific language, calculated in a random manner, you get something that isn't pi but kind of looks like it if you don't go too far. 

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16 minutes ago, Wertbag said:

From what I could find they derived pi by looking at gen 1:1 and: "The number of letters x the product of the letters divided by The number of words x the product of the words. 

You get 3.1416... The value of π to four decimal places!" 

But it isn't correct from digit 5 onwards, so it isn't actually pi, just kind of close. 

It also only works using hebrew, while John 1:1 only works in Greek. 

 

So in a specific language, calculated in a random manner, you get something that isn't pi but kind of looks like it if you don't go too far. 

 

Also, even if it was pi exactly then....what? Christianity is circular? I could get on board with that...

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1 hour ago, Wertbag said:

So in a specific language, calculated in a random manner, you get something that isn't pi but kind of looks like it if you don't go too far. 

 

Like many things religious it works if you look at it through rose tinted glasses with one eye closed and the other squinted.

 

Like the Isiah virgin prophesy works... if you ignore the surrounding context and then ignore that it wasn't fulfilled exactly as stipulated but fulfilled in a reinterpreted manner.

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4 hours ago, SarahJaneSmith said:

Hi Marie, I’m Katie. It’s good to have you here ☺️
 

I have a couple questions for you because I’d like to help but I have no knowledge of numerology other than I’ve aways chalked it up to superstition so haven’t read about it. I’m asking out of curiosity and don’t mean any kind of judgement or shame.  
 

What is it you find significant that Gen 1:1 and John 1:1 find pi&e? 
 

You mentioned you didn’t believe numerology until after you left christianity. What was it that led you to give weight to numerology once you left?

 

Marie, I have the same curiosity that Katie expressed and hope you will respond to the questions that were directed to you.

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Hello. Sorry for your suffering. Talk with your psychiatrist. Sometimes psych meds have weird side effects. Also research mental illness from as much trusted abd varied sources as you can find. 

     I am not a trained profesional, just someone who had big issues with scrupulosity or religious ocd stuff. And this was even observed by a priest monk in Mount Athos, the most dedicated part of orthodox christianity. :)

       You seem to have something of it. Research and talk to proffesionals, especially trained in cult dynamics about it if you are able to. Enourmous fixation on trivial details. I will respond to you even in New Testament language about this issue. You are straining out a gnat but swallow the camel. Plus all of Paul's admonishments of clinging on to outdated rituals of the law about washing eating etc. And the prophets of Old Testament warnings about formal rituals folowed with the commitment of the heart.

     So, IF you actually were a Christian or a Jewish believer, this kind of numerology stuff would be probably considered sinful or even witchcraft. If you should not use this as Christian or a Jew to prove the Bible or even concern yourself with such trivial pursuits, why would you do it now? Maybe this helps.

      Also you seem to experience extreme discomfort when faced with uncertainty. I realky know that feeling. Certainty has been linked to a drug high, and getting out of a system of belief that offered that is like going through withdrawl.

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12 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

Marie, I have the same curiosity that Katie expressed and hope you will respond to the questions that were directed to you.

 

Hi !

 

I just find the coincidence too big. Especially the fact that they use the same method of calculating. But it could be fear talking as well, a kind of "I am not sure if it is significant but what if it is?"... Let's be honest, I have a huge fear of going to hell, especially because it is said to be eternal, that causes me lots of anxiety.

 

Somebody mentioned about looking for a psychiatrist that knows how to deal with the cult-related traumas, I tried to look for one, but I am based in Ireland, and I could not find so far, I believe because we are such a tiny island it might not be that common.

 

Thank you all for the replies, I really appreciate. I hope to find peace soon, I have been on this path for almost 2 years, some days I am losing hope, some others I am okay.

 

For example yesterday was a good day, where I could reason that this calculation was not proving divine inspiration. Today I am on the low side again and anxious about it. Kind of a roller coaster. Meds help to keep going in those low days.

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@Man, these are suggestions that come to my mind. If they’re useful, great, and if not maybe they’ll help you think of other possibilities.
 

journeyfree.org  is an organization run by Marlene Winell, PhD. She helps people who’ve experienced religious trauma and leads a couple of online support groups (for a fee on a sliding scale). She provides one twenty minute consult free. I talked with her once a couple years ago and found it helpful to find someone who knew how dangerous and toxic religion can be and understands the emotional turmoil that people can experience. 
 

Bart Ehrman’s Heaven and Hell might be helpful. It shows the evolution of hell in the bible - hell not existing in the Old Testament to being what we typically think of today as eternal torment. 

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8 hours ago, Man said:

but I am based in Ireland

Ach, yer already sorted, then, so ye are. 

 

You just need to get down the countryside to commune with nature and get you a lung full of fresh air. I'd recommend heading down Glendalough way.  Or over to the Arans for a bit of sun and salty sea.  It'd do you good and likely help you too.

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12 hours ago, Man said:

 

Hi !

 

I just find the coincidence too big. Especially the fact that they use the same method of calculating. But it could be fear talking as well, a kind of "I am not sure if it is significant but what if it is?"... Let's be honest, I have a huge fear of going to hell, especially because it is said to be eternal, that causes me lots of anxiety.

 

Somebody mentioned about looking for a psychiatrist that knows how to deal with the cult-related traumas, I tried to look for one, but I am based in Ireland, and I could not find so far, I believe because we are such a tiny island it might not be that common.

 

Thank you all for the replies, I really appreciate. I hope to find peace soon, I have been on this path for almost 2 years, some days I am losing hope, some others I am okay.

 

For example yesterday was a good day, where I could reason that this calculation was not proving divine inspiration. Today I am on the low side again and anxious about it. Kind of a roller coaster. Meds help to keep going in those low days.

The solution to that is reading about the invention of hell. What do you know about that? Are you aware it's a new testament invention? It was invented by early Christians and it was contentious. The Jews of the old testament believed in no such thing nor does any such concept appear there. 

Bart Ehrman just Published his newest work, Heaven and Hell. You should read it. You've simply inherited a fear of a centuries old fairy tale. For many people, irrational thoughts disappear with knowledge and the application of logic. However mental illness (I'm not saying you have any, I'm just saying)can interfere in this process of using knowledge and logic. In that scenario, people need to see the proper professionals and take meds. 

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9 hours ago, SarahJaneSmith said:

@Man, these are suggestions that come to my mind. If they’re useful, great, and if not maybe they’ll help you think of other possibilities.
 

journeyfree.org  is an organization run by Marlene Winell, PhD. She helps people who’ve experienced religious trauma and leads a couple of online support groups (for a fee on a sliding scale). She provides one twenty minute consult free. I talked with her once a couple years ago and found it helpful to find someone who knew how dangerous and toxic religion can be and understands the emotional turmoil that people can experience. 
 

Bart Ehrman’s Heaven and Hell might be helpful. It shows the evolution of hell in the bible - hell not existing in the Old Testament to being what we typically think of today as eternal torment. 

May I point out that the group therapy in journey free.org is by donation and you can still join if you are unable to pay. 

Another book you may wish to check out is Marlene Winell's book, Leaving the Fold. She discusses how xtianity fucks with your mind and I think this would be useful. 

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Thank you all for the recommendations, I'll have a look in those ones !

 

And yes, Glendalough is definitely one of my favourite place 😊 if we were not on lockdown, I probably would go have a walk there.

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20 hours ago, Man said:

 

Hi !

 

I just find the coincidence too big. Especially the fact that they use the same method of calculating. But it could be fear talking as well, a kind of "I am not sure if it is significant but what if it is?"... Let's be honest, I have a huge fear of going to hell, especially because it is said to be eternal, that causes me lots of anxiety.

 

Somebody mentioned about looking for a psychiatrist that knows how to deal with the cult-related traumas, I tried to look for one, but I am based in Ireland, and I could not find so far, I believe because we are such a tiny island it might not be that common.

 

Thank you all for the replies, I really appreciate. I hope to find peace soon, I have been on this path for almost 2 years, some days I am losing hope, some others I am okay.

 

For example yesterday was a good day, where I could reason that this calculation was not proving divine inspiration. Today I am on the low side again and anxious about it. Kind of a roller coaster. Meds help to keep going in those low days.

If you seek complete certainty you will probably bot find it. I mean why aren t you worrying that Islam is the right religion? We are beings dealing with probability not certainty. One of the giants of philosophy of science Karl Popper,  said that it is impossible to definetevly prove a scientific theory.

      Too big to be a coincidence? That can be said about everything. That is the exact reasoning of inteligent design. Mathematically speaking NOTHING is too big to be a coincidence. People win the lottery at giant odds. You must PROVE that a correlation is a causation or that it means anything. I am 1 89 cm.and was conceived in 1989. Pretty coincidental, right? This year I became 30, in 2020, on 10th of April. 10, 20, 30 has to mean smth right? Wrong, it doesn't. You first have to prove it means something.

     Gillie Jenkinson of hope valley counseling does online consultations as well as rachel bernstein and others. They are therapists not psychiatrists.

     You should better research on curing hell anxiety as it seems clear that that is the real problem not those numerology things. 

      Terror usualy blocks the more cognitive part of the brain and enacts the 5 f - fear, flight, fight, fawn, fantasy. Because in the case of the omnimax God the first three are useless, the brain activates the last two , fawn as in submt and fantasy as in dissociation. The whole system of hell and the omnimax God is meant to make you lose logic and refined thinking,  submit and dissociate in various ways losing clear perception of reality. Quite like a mind "virus" using your own body s natural mechanism s against yourself. 

     The chance that that numerology thing means anything is as big as you having lunch with a leprechaun tommorow discussing the latest news of the leprechaun republic which is underneath your neighbour's house. If ot happens, do tell us. I am quite intrigued by the election system of those small little chaps.

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I never heard of that "Pi and e" in the bible-thing before, but now that I've read about it, it makes me feel very anxious, too. The site I found with the calculations also addresses the skeptics (http://en.daniel1210.com/epi/06/), and it's really hard for me to tackle those arguments.

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