God without Religion?

[Georgia]

13 minutes ago, DanForsman said:

This leads to the massively troubling probability that had you been raised in an overwhelmingly Muslim country (rather than an overwhelmingly Christian country) you would almost certainly have been led to Allah and the  Qur'an. When a Muslim in a Muslim country with just as much sincerity as you asks for a creator god to reveal "Himself" why do you suppose "He" instead reveals "Himself" as Allah? Do you resolve this problem by assuming that the sincerity of your prayers could not be matched by those of a Muslim? Both you and your Muslim counterpart feel so blessed to have been born into a country that knows the real true god. Do you find it at all troubling that about 2/3 of the humans on the earth do not believe in your god or do you judge all of those too have never searched with the sincerity that you have? 

Clearly in reading what you've written you always did feel this way. The problem with researching any topic when you have a preexisting bias is that there is a high probability you will cater to that bias as you "research". For example, any portions of evolution that don't seem to back up the idea of a creator god may "just not make sense" no matter what amount of evidence is brought to the bear to demonstrate the accuracy and credibility of those portions.

 

Hi Dan!

 

Thanks for replying

 

I think we should firstly remember that many Islamic countries do not allow the belief in any other faith but Islam. You may even receive the death penalty for doing so. Exploring other options may not be possible for many people and they may not have the opportunity to do so even if they did want to receive "Christ".  I also must point out that so called "Christians" for hundreds of years have invaded these "islamic" countries- (although you will probably find that orginally they were "Christian" lands) and caused war, death and famine all whilst holding the cross. So I can imagine many muslims rightfully despise the west, it's God and all it stands for, definitely leading people away.

 

In terms of my background, I am from London, UK yes but my ethnic background is a mix of African and Jamaican. My point is, throughout my life I have been surrounded by Muslims, Christians and those who believe in ancient ancestors opposed to God. So my surroundings do not necessarily just lead me to a Christian god because I so happen to live in the west. As I pointed out previously, "Christianity" is in fact an eastern religion which has been shaped to fit the West. 

 

I find it extremely troubling that many people do not believe as I do, but it's not my place to judge anyone. That is between them and the father. But I am confident that everyone will have the opportunity to know him- in scripture it states that those never had the chance to know the truth will be shown, so I am confident that it's all in hand.

 

I definitely agree with what you say about bias, however I chose to study evolution, biology etc because at the time I absolutely believed in it but had a feeling there was still more to life. I wasn't looking for faults in the evolution model I just so happened to feel it was not correct 

 

 

 

 

[older]

Post deleted because I missed a whole page of posts that covered this better than I could.

[Georgia]

12 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Georgia, will I burn in Hell if I die without having a personal relationship with the Father in place?

 

edited for clarity.

 

The scripture states that those who oppose God right until the end will suffer the second death and be thrown into the lake of fire. But this is not what the father, it's your choice. I believe you can chose to be ruled by the father or your flesh and the world. 

 

I chose the father any day,  the world brought me insecurity, heartache, pain, confusion and distress. I find peace with the father not in the world. 

 

I hope you find the same

 

 

 

[Georgia]

2 hours ago, florduh said:

Take care to not conflate complexity with design. An intelligent design of the human body would, for example, not route the food and air pipes together. But wait, there's more!!! https://unbelievable-facts.com/2018/06/design-flaws-in-the-human-body.html

 

 

 

Thanks for the website

 

Interesting stuff but it doesn't mean there's no designer! 

[SarahJaneSmith]

16 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

The scripture states that those who oppose God right until the end will suffer the second death and be thrown into the lake of fire. But this is not what the father, it's your choice. I believe you can chose to be ruled by the father or your flesh and the world. 

Ah, there it is. We’re all going to hell. I’ll bring the marshmallows!

[Georgia]

Just now, SarahJaneSmith said:

Ah, there it is. We’re all going to hell. I’ll bring the marshmallows!

 

It's a horrible horrible thought I know, but so is decaying into the ground and ceasing to exist after everything with no purpose. 

[florduh]

26 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

 

Thanks for the website

 

Interesting stuff but it doesn't mean there's no designer! 

Uh, yeah, it kind of does.

[florduh]

1 hour ago, Geezer said:

So far it seems a belief in God, aka faith, is what it appears to be. Belief without evidence. In other words some people just choose to believe God exists because they want God to exists. It appears education, or lack thereof, has little or nothing to do with belief in God. 

Bingo. That has been my experience as well. 

[florduh]

44 minutes ago, Georgia said:

I wasn't looking for faults in the evolution model I just so happened to feel it was not correct 

You must deliberately ignore mountains of hard evidence to take that position. 

[Georgia]

1 hour ago, Geezer said:

There is a YouTube series called “Closer to Truth”. It’s about a scientists that wants to believe in God. He travels around the world, speaking with intellectuals, that believe in God, asking them why they believe in God. 

 

I’ve watched several of his videos and interviews with physicists, metaphysicians, genetics and other intellectuals with advanced college degrees and doctorates in science that profess a belief in God. So far, both he and I, remained unconvinced that any of them have uncovered a rational path to God. 
 

So far it seems a belief in God, aka faith, is what it appears to be. Belief without evidence. In other words some people just choose to believe God exists because they want God to exists. It appears education, or lack thereof, has little or nothing to do with belief in God. 

 

Hey Geezer! 

 

I am suprised to see that so many ex-christians are not familiar with the notion of faith. Yes, you believe without seeing all of the facts. I presume you all have read the bible, even people who apparently witnessed miracles that "christ" performed still did not believe in him and searched for alternative reasons for his divinity. Those who are truly blessed seem to be those who believe without seeing. Like the roman captain who met "Jesus" and asked him to heal someone without even seeing the person. "Christ" was in awe of his blind faith and healed his servant. 

 

What is a "rational path" to God?

 

No, you are right, education does not necessarily lead to faith but I stressed the point to show that there are people that have dedicated their entire lives to science and still keep a firm belief. 

 

There are many believers who have not wanted to believe but do because it's hard to go back once you find the truth. Being a believer is hard, it comes with a huge responsibility. It's easier to just live life and not think about anything else. 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

3 hours ago, Georgia said:

When you see life under a microscope and have the opportunity to experiment with DNA it does lead you to ask questions like how is this possible and why is it happening. 

 

We must not forget that some of the most intelligent thinkers and scientists throughout history have been "christians". Let's not lead ourselves to believe that the notion of God is for those who are less intelligent or cannot distinguish fact from fiction. 

 

That's what I'm talking about. Neither pure chance nor intelligently designed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[freshstart]

44 minutes ago, Georgia said:

It's a horrible horrible thought I know, but so is decaying into the ground and ceasing to exist after everything with no purpose

Hi Georgia

A few questions:

For billions and billions of years . . . in fact an eternity before you were born, . . . you didn't exist. You had no means of experiencing existence through sight, sound, touch, etc because you weren't born yet. What makes you think that you would experience "decaying into the ground" after you cease to exist? How would being dead be any different than being unborn?

Secondly, why do you believe that you must have an afterlife inorder to have a purpose?

And finally, if you could be assured that there was no hell, would  this allow you to consider the science that disproves many Christian beliefs?

Hmmm . . .I guess thats more than a few questions!

 

[freshstart]

5 hours ago, Georgia said:

The design of DNA and the chances that all the right components needed to create life all present at one time for no reason at all just didn't sit right with me.

 

I actually don't discount the possibility of intelligent design. But that is a far cry away from Christian beliefs.

 

6 hours ago, Georgia said:

I am keen to see if it's the mechanisms of the religion which has turned people away or because they found knowledge else where

 

For me it had little to do with "the mechanisms of religion," and much more to do with finding other knowledge.

 

Belief is not a choice. Do you choose to believe in Santa Claus, leprechauns, the tooth fairy, etc or are you unable to believe because you came to recognize these things as mythology without any supporting evidence?

 

2 hours ago, Georgia said:

I needed to see to open my heart to "christ"- yes this is subjective but a personal relationship with the father and messiah is the most important thing. So let's not dismiss a subjective experience they are all extremely important. 

 

I agree, we should not necessarily dismiss the subjective experience. But why should your subjective experience outweigh mine? Subjective experiences, by their very nature, are not transferable to others.

[midniterider]

38 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

The scripture states that those who oppose God right until the end will suffer the second death and be thrown into the lake of fire. But this is not what the father, it's your choice. I believe you can chose to be ruled by the father or your flesh and the world. 

 

I chose the father any day,  the world brought me insecurity, heartache, pain, confusion and distress. I find peace with the father not in the world. 

 

I hope you find the same

 

 

 

 

Does it concern you that the Father that you would choose any day would throw people, possibly people you know, into a lake of fire? I can't seem to find a good reason to throw someone into a lake of fire, myself. And just for not having a relationship with him? Is the Father always good all the time? Even while causing people eternal agony? You seem to be concerned about Satan breaking your faith but he only tends the fires , so to speak. And he is called the evil one? But the one who decides there should be infinite punishment for a finite crime ...the father ... is somehow good? How would that work? Have you thought this through? 

 

Is it really my choice to go to hell? 

 

Who created Hell (and all other things too)? Wasn't it the father whom you would choose, any day. It certainly was not my doing.

Who decided on the criteria for who goes to hell? The author of the bible? The father , once again. I wouldn't come up with such torture. 

Who came up with the idea of sin? Of Original Sin? The father did. The wages of sin are death. Another father idea. 

 

 

I dont choose Hell. That is your God's doing. His creation. His rules. His choice. 

 

 

[midniterider]

24 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

 

There are many believers who have not wanted to believe but do because it's hard to go back once you find the truth. Being a believer is hard, it comes with a huge responsibility. It's easier to just live life and not think about anything else. 

 

 

 

 ³⁰ For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Mt 11:28-30.

 

 

[Georgia]

5 minutes ago, freshstart said:

Hi Georgia

A few questions:

For billions and billions of years . . . in fact an eternity before you were born, . . . you didn't exist. You had no means of experiencing existence through sight, sound, touch, etc because you weren't born yet. What makes you think that you would experience "decaying into the ground" after you cease to exist? How would being dead be any different than being unborn?

Secondly, why do you believe that you must have an afterlife inorder to have a purpose?

And finally, if you could be assured that there was no hell, would  this allow you to consider the science that disproves many Christian beliefs?

Hmmm . . .I guess thats more than a few questions!

 

 

Hi Fresh Start

 

I said decay into the ground and cease to exist because I presumed you all would not believe in an afterlife and believe that when you die you no longer exists and that's it. 

 

I don't get what you mean about not being born and being dead? 

 

An atheist once said to me that theres no purpose in life, you have to find your own and make the most of it while you can. From this I presume that most of you may feel similar?  That you dont have an overall purpose or reason to exist but you find your own reason's?  

 

Can you give me an example of the science that disproves many Christian beliefs? Are we talking about theories of science that have also not been 100% proven but are main theories that you are taught to believe as fact? 

 

What makes you think that what your shown on TV, told in documentaries, the news, governements etc is correct? Can you personally prove the science you speak of to be correct? Have you completed the experiments yourself or have you just been told ? 

 

If your an ex believer I presume you've read the bible, if so you will know that not only God exists but also Satan. He is the master deceiver and will appear as a bright light- be careful what you believe. You might say I am silly for having blind faith in the father, but consider your blind faith in mankind, government, scientist etc can you honestly say you trust those who are in control? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, Georgia said:

 

I find it extremely troubling that many people do not believe as I do, but it's not my place to judge anyone.

 

 

God's glorious plan to incinerate atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Hindus, etc etc etc  troubles you? Well, that's a good start

[midniterider]

5 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

 

Can you give me an example of the science that disproves many Christian beliefs? Are we talking about theories of science that have also not been 100% proven but are main theories that you are taught to believe as fact? 

 

 

 

Can we do flat earth? I love that one. LoL.

[older]

1 minute ago, midniterider said:

 

Can we do flat earth? I love that one. LoL.

And to that we can add the view of the solar system as geocentric vs. heliocenric.

[florduh]

45 minutes ago, Georgia said:

I am suprised to see that so many ex-christians are not familiar with the notion of faith.

Faith is the opposite of reason. Faith (religious) is defined as belief without evidence. If there is evidence then no faith is required. Essentially faith is believing some improbable thing just because you want to. Faith is nothing to be proud of.

[Georgia]

19 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Does it concern you that the Father that you would choose any day would throw people, possibly people you know, into a lake of fire? I can't seem to find a good reason to throw someone into a lake of fire, myself. And just for not having a relationship with him? Is the Father always good all the time? Even while causing people eternal agony? You seem to be concerned about Satan breaking your faith but he only tends the fires , so to speak. And he is called the evil one? But the one who decides there should be infinite punishment for a finite crime ...the father ... is somehow good? How would that work? Have you thought this through? 

 

Is it really my choice to go to hell? 

 

Who created Hell (and all other things too)? Wasn't it the father whom you would choose, any day. It certainly was not my doing.

Who decided on the criteria for who goes to hell? The author of the bible? The father , once again. I wouldn't come up with such torture. 

Who came up with the idea of sin? Of Original Sin? The father did. The wages of sin are death. Another father idea. 

 

 

I dont choose Hell. That is your God's doing. His creation. His rules. His choice. 

 

 

 

Hi!!

 

I understand it's an extremely difficult concept to grasp, but just because it's  hard and out of our understanding does not make it untrue. 

 

The father is eternally good,  always is and always will be. You have the gift of free will, to chose to do what you want in life. Satan makes this harder because he is waiting for any opportunity to keep you from the father and not believing that is his main goal- do you consider this at all? 

 

You have free will to make a choice and break out of sin and avoid the second death. The same way you have the choice to stay out of prison and abide by the law of the land. 

 

He is your father, like  you maybe a father to a son or daughter. He has authority over you and has set the rules down. If you all were created to just follow him there would be no opportunity for true, genuine love, we would all be robots- free will give us this opportunity to love and worship through choice. 

 

I cannot say that I understand the fathers ways- as King Solomon also states, the world is a mysterious place and is hard to grasp. But it does not mean it's not a possibility because you cannot get your head around it

[florduh]

12 minutes ago, Georgia said:

Can you give me an example of the science that disproves many Christian beliefs? Are we talking about theories of science that have also not been 100% proven but are main theories that you are taught to believe as fact?

I think perhaps one big stumbling block is your misunderstanding of the term "theory" as it is used in science. Hint: It does not mean "wild guess."

 

Astronomy, biology, geology, archaeology, historical records and every other discipline goes counter to Biblical assertions in so many areas. I suspect you already know many specific examples yourself (assuming you went through high school) but choose to dismiss them as mere "theories."

[florduh]

3 minutes ago, Georgia said:

The father is eternally good,  always is and always will be. You have the gift of free will, to chose to do what you want in life. Satan makes this harder because he is waiting for any opportunity to keep you from the father and not believing that is his main goal- do you consider this at all? 

Sorry, this is the real world and you'll need real evidence to support those assertions.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

9 minutes ago, Georgia said:

I understand it's an extremely difficult concept to grasp, but just because it's  hard and out of our understanding does not make it untrue. 

Isn't this exactly the reason you gave for not "believing" in evolution?  Isn't this also the very reason you gave for not "believing" in mainstream christianity? 

 

When something is convenient, or confirms your bias, you believe it whether you understand it or not.  Most of us, as ex-christians, do not have that luxury.

[Joshpantera]