God without Religion?

[Joshpantera]

God without religion is one thing. Many people have it. They just don't like organized religion. But press on like this as if the god part were factual anyways absent the religion. It's a half way point. If you can understand that the bible's contradicting and inaccurate, not divine, but then press on assuming that the god of the same inaccurate bible IS accurate, well then there's still a long way to go in terms of personally comprehending the situation. But of course, people do it. Thinking things all the way through seems more an exception than the rule when it comes to society. 

 

This does constitute a variety of religious, "none." 

 

Some members who have thought this through a lot further along have posted about it. But they aren't being payed any attention to. Just waive of the hand dismissed. Their citations and links have been ignored in favor of pressing on firmly preaching the same thing over and over again. That is understandably frustrating. @Georgia if you want to ask questions of ex christians and maintain some authenticity or credibility with everyone, then you may need to pump the brakes and actually put some effort into acknowledging what they are sharing with you - thoughts, links and citations. This isn't a race and there's no rush. You have all the time in the world to investigate what people are sharing with you. 

 

If you want to understand something, then you ought to go ahead take an intellectually honest approach to understanding. 

 

There's no need to run off into political references and conspiracy which is just more red herrings to the topic of god without religion. I'd refrain from going off topic any further. It's counter productive to the discussion. 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Good points, @Joshpantera.  I think it behooves us, as ex-christians,to remember that many christians, even ones who are leery of "mainstream" religion, live almost entirely within bubble-shaped echo-chambers .  They are not used to differing opinions.  They are not used to alternative methods of discovery or thought.  They are not really even used to using words according to their commonly accepted definitions. 

 

As an example, the phrase "I have a few questions I'd like input on."  For most of us, intellectual progress has hit an impasse and we seek the experience or rationality of others to guide us in pushing forward.  To the believer, though, this phrase could more honestly be stated as, "I've already made up my mind, why don't you agree?"  Which then opens the door to proselytizing under the thin veneer of "just asking questions." 

 

Most christians aren't even aware of their repeated behavior patterns and the biases, fallacies, and dissonance required to achieve and maintain such behaviors.   @Georgia certainly is not; and genuinely believes herself to be open-minded and intellectually honest in her pursuit of truth.

 

We were, all of us, to some degree or other, once so blind and bound.

 

Be kind.

[Edgarcito]

8 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Good points, @Joshpantera.  I think it behooves us, as ex-christians,to remember that many christians, even ones who are leery of "mainstream" religion, live almost entirely within bubble-shaped echo-chambered.  They are not used to differing opinions.  They are not used to alternative methods of discovery or thought.  They are not really even used to using words according to their commonly accepted definitions. 

 

As an example, the phrase "I have a few questions I'd like input on."  For most of us, intellectual progress has hit an impasse and we seek the experience or rationality of others to guide us in pushing forward.  To the believer, though, this phrase could more honestly be stated as, "I've already made up my mind, why don't you agree?"  Which then opens the door to proselytizing under the thin veneer of "just asking questions." 

 

Most christians aren't even aware of their repeated behavior patterns and the biases, fallacies, and dissonance required to achieve and maintain such behaviors.   @Georgia certainly is not; and genuinely believes herself to be open-minded and intellectually honest in her pursuit of truth.

 

We were, all of us, to some degree or other, once so blind and bound.

 

Be kind.

+1 buddy

[WalterP]

  22 hours ago, WalterP said:

 

You may think that execution and the lake of fire are the same concept Georgia, but could you please tell us how long people will suffer agonizing torment in the lake?

 

 

This illuminates a much deeper point. Execution, in and of itself, is completely different from torture. Capital punishment is, by definition, an end to all further punishment. Now, of course there are and have been many methods of execution which are toturous. But that is beside the point. You can mix execution and torture if you like, but execution itself is bad only inasmuch as it deprives someone of life. Torture is actively and continuously malevolent. Eternal torture...

 

Say it with me: God is good. All the time. /s.

 

For the record, I'm against capital punishment.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Thank you for your input here Disillusioned.  Very clear.

 

As you mention, execution is usually a brief thing, lasting seconds or minutes if carried out in a controlled and 'humane' way.  The point I'd like to add is that the people who are executed are usually mentally and physically capable of committing crimes. 

 

But among those to be thrown into the lake of fire will be quadriplegics, the autistic, those with brittle bone disease, etc.  Their 'crime' will be not loving Jesus Christ.  For this 'crime' they will tortured forever...

 

Oh and I'm against capital punishment too.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[midniterider]

There are people who dont love me in the world. I wont invite them to live in my house. But they CAN live somewhere else.

 

Why do Christians say that God gives people free will then torches them for using it? What kind of free will is that?

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Good points, @Joshpantera.  I think it behooves us, as ex-christians,to remember that many christians, even ones who are leery of "mainstream" religion, live almost entirely within bubble-shaped echo-chambers .  They are not used to differing opinions.  They are not used to alternative methods of discovery or thought.  They are not really even used to using words according to their commonly accepted definitions. 

 

As an example, the phrase "I have a few questions I'd like input on."  For most of us, intellectual progress has hit an impasse and we seek the experience or rationality of others to guide us in pushing forward.  To the believer, though, this phrase could more honestly be stated as, "I've already made up my mind, why don't you agree?"  Which then opens the door to proselytizing under the thin veneer of "just asking questions." 

 

Most christians aren't even aware of their repeated behavior patterns and the biases, fallacies, and dissonance required to achieve and maintain such behaviors.   @Georgia certainly is not; and genuinely believes herself to be open-minded and intellectually honest in her pursuit of truth.

 

We were, all of us, to some degree or other, once so blind and bound.

 

Be kind.

 

What is a good way to proceed then, as an Ex-c in a thread like this? I supposed I could be less harsh and gently point out the inconsistencies of Christianity over many pages. The lake of fire just popped into my head in this one and I couldnt help myself.  

 

I can be kind ... until people start saying that bad is good. Maybe I should switch to a video game at that point.

[florduh]

17 minutes ago, midniterider said:

I can be kind ... until people start saying that bad is good. Maybe I should switch to a video game at that point.

Hence the Gold Star for participation!!!

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Here is a possibility of what may be happening with Georgia. For a christian my grandfather was a tolerant person, and used to say that everyone had to work out their own salvation.  I think that is true for Georgia, and most Christians.  Everyone has their own interpretation of what God wants, even within the different denominations.  And if we feel we have some "wiggle room", we tend to "forget" the scripture and concepts we dont like.  And if you keep chasing the loose ends of religion, you may very well wind up completely outside the box.  Georgia, and others that come here, may be near that point.   In a sense she may be trying desperately to convince herself, as much as others, of what she is holding onto.

 

When I think back on my journey of de-conversion, it goes back to my childhood and what granddad said about working out your own salvation. THANK YOU GRANDPA!

 

I might add that for those who grow up in the liberal camps, they may not even recognize the loose ends, or feel the need for some wiggle room. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

 

What is a good way to proceed then, as an Ex-c in a thread like this? I supposed I could be less harsh and gently point out the inconsistencies of Christianity over many pages. The lake of fire just popped into my head in this one and I couldnt help myself.  

 

I can be kind ... until people start saying that bad is good. Maybe I should switch to a video game at that point.

My remarks were not intended to imply that anyone was being unnecessarily aggressive, as, truth be told, it would be the pinnacle of hypocrisy for me to slash anyone else for taking an abrasive approach.  I merely intended them to serve as a reminder (to myself as much as anyone) of what it's like to not be able to clearly perceive reality, to call bad good, as you phrase it.  

[TruthSeeker0]

3 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

What is a good way to proceed then, as an Ex-c in a thread like this? I supposed I could be less harsh and gently point out the inconsistencies of Christianity over many pages. The lake of fire just popped into my head in this one and I couldnt help myself.  

 

I can be kind ... until people start saying that bad is good. Maybe I should switch to a video game at that point.

I agree. I cannot for the life of me understand those xtians who will argue that bad is good, their god is good regardless of what it does or who it damns to eternal suffering... That their god cannot be questioned because it's god. 

 

Those xtians really should think on what they consider love to be. Basically they're all brainwashed to believe sadism is love. 

[SarahJaneSmith]

@Georgia, I ended up ramble-er than I intended but maybe you can relate to something here and it's not a complete thread jack.

 

Thinking back on my own journey out, it took a scary amount of time for me to understand what nonbeliever's were talking about when they meant good=bad/bad=good! The logic is so twisted! I blindly believed that god torturing people forever was because he was good and they were choosing to be tortured! Now I understand it as emotionally abusive but at the time I fell for it hook, line, and sinker. @TruthSeeker0 said it well: "They're all brainwashed to believe sadism is love." 

 

Another thing I didn't understand was what circular reasoning really was. I didn't have a clue how "the Bible is god's word because the Bible says it's god's word" was circular reasoning!! It really is a warping of reality. The more I listen to various talks on fallacious thinking the more I understand how much brainwashing and mindf*'ery there is in christianity. But at the time I thought as long as I knew every apologetic answer I was good to go! It took a long time but eventually, thankfully, my house of cards came tumbling down. 

[TruthSeeker0]

Some people have said it way better than I: 

"I do understand what love is, and that is one of the reasons I can never again be a Christian. Love is not self denial. Love is not blood and suffering. Love is not murdering your son to appease your own vanity. Love is not hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules. Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being."

Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist

 

"Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits. It is intellectual bankruptcy."

- also Dan Barker

 

[Joshpantera]

13 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

As an example, the phrase "I have a few questions I'd like input on."  For most of us, intellectual progress has hit an impasse and we seek the experience or rationality of others to guide us in pushing forward.  To the believer, though, this phrase could more honestly be stated as, "I've already made up my mind, why don't you agree?"  Which then opens the door to proselytizing under the thin veneer of "just asking questions." 

 

This is just the truth. We do see that very often. And more often than not, "just asking questions" turns into pages long trolling and ad hom's to the point of us having to lock threads eventually. Over and over again. So many crash and burn fly by's last year. I guess it's just too emotional a situation for it not to go that way. 

 

13 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Most christians aren't even aware of their repeated behavior patterns and the biases, fallacies, and dissonance required to achieve and maintain such behaviors.   @Georgia certainly is not; and genuinely believes herself to be open-minded and intellectually honest in her pursuit of truth.

 

We were, all of us, to some degree or other, once so blind and bound.

 

I think that Georgia is unaware of at least some of it. For instance, she at least portrays that she doesn't think that these posts are preaching. But they are. And we can kindly point out what is preachy about the posts if she's interested in not being too preachy. Maybe she honestly doesn't get it. I'll let her respond further before going there. 

 

The book I've been going through entitled, "Synchronicity," is specifically to do with things like what Georgia is describing. 

 

 

This bit about "The Father" answering her prayers is exactly what the book is about. I mean, exactly! The more she posts about it, the more it sounds like she's completely consumed with synchronistic experiences. And has not a clue about this possible, or even probable explanation. People are often absolutely convinced that it's something else. Until they realize the patterns and consistency. 

 

@midniterider I'm sure you've noticed this too?  

 

 

[older]

To understand Christians it is helpful to know the allegory of Plato's cave. Wikipedia has a good article on it. In brief, there are people chained in a cave, facing the wall away from the door. The people have always been there and all they know is what they see in the shadows cast upon the wall by a fire behind them. Those shadows are their reality and they have no knowledge of anything outside the cave — they don't even know that they are chained in position. They are happy there and their minds cannot possibly process anything that might relate to the world outside. The sun, the Wikipedia article states, is incomprehensible to someone who has never seen it. But to extend the allegory a bit, the people do not want to come out of the cave for whatever reason: they are comfortable, afraid, satisfied in their thinking, or unaware that there even is an "outside the cave." So until the Christian comes out of the cave and sees the sun, it is impossible to try to explain it to her. This does not suggest that the people in the cave lack intelligence; it merely states that their knowledge is limited and they lack an awareness of even the existence of other ways of thinking and being.

 

This may sound condescending to a Christian, and that's part of the problem. It's not meant to be so, but when someone is inside the cave, that is the only way they can see it. So I'm sorry for those who see it that way; a statement that makes all this sound even more condescending. But there is no way to state it other than the way it is.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

14 minutes ago, older said:

 

So until the Christian comes out of the cave and sees the sun, it is impossible to try to explain it to her.

 

I think Georgia is close to stepping out of the cave.  Or has given us a big snow job??  I am curious as to why it is taking so long for her to come back and "set out my beliefs" that is supposed to have an impact of some kind.

[midniterider]

27 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

This is just the truth. We do see that very often. And more often than not, "just asking questions" turns into pages long trolling and ad hom's to the point of us having to lock threads eventually. Over and over again. So many crash and burn fly by's last year. I guess it's just too emotional a situation for it not to go that way. 

 

 

I think that Georgia is unaware of at least some of it. For instance, she at least portrays that she doesn't think that these posts are preaching. But they are. And we can kindly point out what is preachy about the posts if she's interested in not being too preachy. Maybe she honestly doesn't get it. I'll let her respond further before going there. 

 

The book I've been going through entitled, "Synchronicity," is specifically to do with things like what Georgia is describing. 

 

 

This bit about "The Father" answering her prayers is exactly what the book is about. I mean, exactly! The more she posts about it, the more it sounds like she's completely consumed with synchronistic experiences. And has not a clue about this possible, or even probable explanation. People are often absolutely convinced that it's something else. Until they realize the patterns and consistency. 

 

@midniterider I'm sure you've noticed this too?  

 

 

 

If what you're saying is that the more you open yourself to "The Father", the more you are going to see "The Father"  or whatever phenomenon that is related to what you want to see? Stuff we dont have a particular interest in tends to become invisible. Like this desk I have that is piled with shit, for instance.  Just kidding. I dealt with a little bit of synchronicity as a Christian but had quite a strong sense of "Oh yeah, well that's baloney" in my subconscious so it wasnt that pronounced. Other people may have more talent. 

 

Perhaps Georgia has become hyper-aware of stuff that was already there and/or has created some synchronistic events herself. What does Kirby say, we have mental control over 3-5 percent of our personal universe?  

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I don't know the statistics, but psychoanalysis says our unconscious and subconscious mind has much more control over us than we realize.  We aren't nearly as objective as we think we are.

[freshstart]

On 4/26/2020 at 8:09 PM, Edgarcito said:

I don't think there is anything really wrong with expanding horizons.  At some point I think we ask ourselves why do we believe what we believe or the basic "who am I".  If you were a Christian for any given period of time, surely you understand her position.

I don't think there is anything wrong with expanding horizons either. I also see no evidence of Georgia attempting to do that, but perhaps I have misread her.  Perhaps she is here to convince herself of her own beliefs and dispel her own doubts. Who knows?

[pantheory]

On 4/24/2020 at 12:32 PM, Georgia said:

Hello Everyone! 

 

I hope you all are keeping safe and staying at home

 

My name is Georgia, I'm 29 years old and live in London, UK. I am firm, strong believer in the Father and the Messiah but I do reject the majority of the religious nonsense. Christianity has been ruined- it's highest members of the church are pedophiles, power hungry, money hungry and false teachers. Many leaders of small congregations are also false teachers, out for themselves and have no idea how to use the scripture (which of course has been altered to fit in with Western customs). So called "Christianity" is an eastern faith which has been manipulated and shaped to be able to brain wash the Western world. 

 

With that being said, I am interested to find out if those of you who identity as an atheists have had poor experiences in the church? And would you ever consider having a relationship with the father outside of religion ? 

 

P.S I am a believer but welcome all answers,  but please be respectful of my views as I will yours. I'm up for a debate but not an insult match.

 

Thanks

 

Hi Georgia. That's my sister's name. I am a total atheist and would bet my immortal soul against a six pack of beer since I would have nothing to lose. I have had nothing but good experiences with the church but I lost my belief right before I went to college because I studied a number of Christian religions, and for interest sake went to Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu Temples. All of it was very cool. I generally had nothing but good experiences with religion and the religious people that I knew and met. Upon turning to adulthood I realized that all religion was pure and simple BS.  But that didn't stop me from going to Church sometimes since I liked the people and liked to sing.

 

My family are all Christians and I still go to Church once in a while since I still like to sing and mingle with religious folk. It's not any religion in particular that I think is worthless, it's the teachings of all religions which sound to me like Greek mythology; every single religion and belief in a god of some kind to me is like believing in Zeus.  So for me God with or without religion is just a pretty fantasy.

 

I call my sister Georgie affectionately,.

 

btw I have been a scientist for many decades but believe science theory is not always right either.  Everybody should believe only what makes sense to them, not just what you have been taught or what people you trust or respect believe.

 

[Joshpantera]

On 4/27/2020 at 10:31 PM, midniterider said:

If what you're saying is that the more you open yourself to "The Father", the more you are going to see "The Father"  or whatever phenomenon that is related to what you want to see? Stuff we dont have a particular interest in tends to become invisible.

 

Very much so. Especially the issue where she ask's her sub conscious for something and it comes back as, "The Father." This being what the prayers break down to - asking one's own subconscious mind this or that and then seeing what the "feedback" mechanism produces.

 

Same thing my grandfather went through during his triple bi pass surgery and his meeting with the "light" that said, "I am." The sub conscious mind uses what's in your mind. He was convinced, like her, that he'd had a revelation. That salvation is found in knowing god's REAL name! The sacred tetragrammaton. Not from keeping the seventh day sabbath, as the SDA church taught him. And when he preached this revelation to his peers, he was branded a heretic to the church and ex communicated by vote. They interpret the, "Seal of God" as the seventh day sabbath. He begged to differ. 

 

On 4/27/2020 at 10:31 PM, midniterider said:

Perhaps Georgia has become hyper-aware of stuff that was already there and/or has created some synchronistic events herself. What does Kirby say, we have mental control over 3-5 percent of our personal universe?  

 

She could be overwhelmed with synchronistic events. Echo chambers of the mind gone wild. Depending on how deep she goes into believing it. But if it starts happening all the time, that tends to ramp up belief in whatever it happens to be. To where someone can become stubbornly willful in said belief. And get paranoid about it (hint, hint, conspiracies...). Just look at all the confirmation. It's all around. It seems like the universe / god is talking just to you. And no matter how vivid it seems, it's just natural subconscious oriented synchronicity. Reflecting back at you what you poor in to it! 

 

On 4/27/2020 at 10:50 PM, Weezer said:

I don't know the statistics, but psychoanalysis says our unconscious and subconscious mind has much more control over us than we realize.  We aren't nearly as objective as we think we are.

 

The video I linked discusses some of the stats and testing results from these studies described in the book. I find these psychological studies fascinating. And then when we're tipped off about these psychological issues it can become very transparent in both 'ourselves' and 'others' when we see it happening. It can be toyed with and consciously manipulated (all in the book) for experimentation. 

 

If Georgia is a counselor of some type, counseling women, you'd think it would be very responsible of her to look into all variety of psychological issues like this so that she may be of sound mind when attempting to counsel others. If for no other reason than just for the sake of having covered every base. I do find that concerning. I'd hope that she'd be responsible enough to try and sort out her own situation so that she may be of greater help to others who could likewise be experiencing similar things. But I'm not confident that this will be the case. Not at this point anyways. 

[TruthSeeker0]

12 hours ago, older said:

To understand Christians it is helpful to know the allegory of Plato's cave. Wikipedia has a good article on it. In brief, there are people chained in a cave, facing the wall away from the door. The people have always been there and all they know is what they see in the shadows cast upon the wall by a fire behind them. Those shadows are their reality and they have no knowledge of anything outside the cave — they don't even know that they are chained in position. They are happy there and their minds cannot possibly process anything that might relate to the world outside. The sun, the Wikipedia article states, is incomprehensible to someone who has never seen it. But to extend the allegory a bit, the people do not want to come out of the cave for whatever reason: they are comfortable, afraid, satisfied in their thinking, or unaware that there even is an "outside the cave." So until the Christian comes out of the cave and sees the sun, it is impossible to try to explain it to her. This does not suggest that the people in the cave lack intelligence; it merely states that their knowledge is limited and they lack an awareness of even the existence of other ways of thinking and being.

 

This may sound condescending to a Christian, and that's part of the problem. It's not meant to be so, but when someone is inside the cave, that is the only way they can see it. So I'm sorry for those who see it that way; a statement that makes all this sound even more condescending. But there is no way to state it other than the way it is.

Yes it may sound condescending but this is exactly how it is. Speaking as a person who used to be in the cave - I couldn't even comprehend the possibility of alternate realities existing. I was kept in there by fear of hell. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

If Georgia is a counselor of some type, counseling women, you'd think it would be very responsible of her to look into all variety of psychological issues like this so that she may be of sound mind when attempting counsel others. I do find that concerning. I'd hope that she'd be responsible enough to try and sort out her own situation so that she may be of greater help to others who could likewise be experiencing similar things. But I'm not confident that this (being that responsible) will be the case. Not at this point anyways. 

 

I am curious as to whether she works at a private agency affiliated with a church, or a public agency.  I have known some Christian counselors who were very good at mental and relationship issues, and from their professional training knew to stay away from religious doctrine. 

[Joshpantera]

On 4/27/2020 at 10:15 PM, older said:

This may sound condescending to a Christian, and that's part of the problem. It's not meant to be so, but when someone is inside the cave, that is the only way they can see it. So I'm sorry for those who see it that way; a statement that makes all this sound even more condescending. But there is no way to state it other than the way it is.

 

You're correct! 

 

I was mad at atheists. I remember that. I couldn't pwn them. That didn't sit well. Not from in the cave anyhow. I wanted to think that I knew better. Until I realized that no, I didn't actually know better. Being the intellectually honest type, I could no longer live a lie inside of the cave. It wasn't possible anymore after I realized for myself that the truth was somewhere to found 'outside' of the cave. I couldn't pretend to believe it anymore after I didn't believe it anymore. Even though the road ahead would be difficult for not following the crowd or giving in to the peer pressure to believe like everyone else. They'd try to guilt us to come forward and declare belief at the academy. I always refused. I would not pretend to believe something that I did not believe just to follow the crowd. 

 

30 years later, after at least 15 of those 30 years actively discussing and debating with apologetic monotheists as mod or admin in some cases, I have still never found a compelling argument for monotheism. I know why. How is it possible for someone standing back in 'the cave,' that I used to inhabit, to show me something that I don't (1) already know or (2) with the insight of having left the cave like I have? knowing what exists both inside and outside of the cave. That's the heart of the problem. 

 

And you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. 

 

I toy around with these people. And try anyways from time to time. Just for the hell of it. Maybe a horse or two will get thirsty along the way. But it's up to the horses as to whether they drink or not. I'll be moving forward regardless. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I think the cave analogy is one of the best I have heard.

[Edgarcito]

9 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

You're correct! 

 

I was mad at atheists. I remember that. I couldn't pwn them. That didn't sit well. Not from in the cave anyhow. I wanted to think that I knew better. Until I realized that no, I didn't actually know better. Being the intellectually honest type, I could no longer live a lie inside of the cave. It wasn't possible anymore after I realized for myself that the truth was somewhere to found 'outside' of the cave. I couldn't pretend to believe it anymore after I didn't believe it anymore. Even though the road ahead would be difficult for not following the crowd or giving in to the peer pressure to believe like everyone else. They'd try to guilt us to come forward and declare belief at the academy. I always refused. I would not pretend to believe something that I did not believe just to follow the crowd. 

 

30 years later, after at least 15 of those 30 years actively discussing and debating with apologetic monotheists as mod or admin in some cases, I have still never found a compelling argument for monotheism. I know why. How is it possible for someone standing back in 'the cave,' that I used to inhabit, to show me something that I don't (1) already know or (2) with the insight of having left the cave like I have? knowing what exists both inside and outside of the cave. That's the heart of the problem. 

 

And you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. 

 

I toy around with these people. And try anyways from time to time. Just for the hell of it. Maybe a horse or two will get thirsty along the way. But it's up to the horses as to whether they drink or not. I'll be moving forward regardless. 

This is so much horse shit....and you too TS.  If each of you were truly able to see people for who they really are, there would be no in or out of the cave.....you would be able to connect anywhere.

 

And then explain please how your circumstances are superior.....thx.