"God's Plan" : Who Will Choose to be Free?

[YakRider]

There is a sentimental notion and cognitive bias that is regularly stated –uncritically—by most who have been adversely affected by religious notions. It is stated variously as “God has a Plan,”  “God has a Plan for your life,” “Everything that has happened is part of God’s Plan,” “Every part of your life is within God’s Plan,” “Nothing happens that is not a part of God’s Plan, and many similar statements that carry a single idea: Everything that happens in anyone's life is all a part of "God’s Plan."

The “believers” in this notion are beginning to shift uneasily in their seats about now because their unswerving belief is that whatever has happened in your life and the lives of every other human who has existed and is existing was and is a part of “God’s Plan.”  Needless to say, this is a very dangerous bias to ensnare one’s mind. Here’s a brief sampling of plain examples of this bias in day-to-day action.

Every adult reading this who was abused physically –beaten, locked outside, starved, tortured, those who as girls and boys who were incested, molested, raped, beaten, maimed, threatened –it was and is all a part of God’s Plan. "God" 'planned' these events.

Every child who had parents who were/are alcoholic/addicts and repeatedly subjected them to neglect, abuses and abandonment over the course of years since infancy through childhood –it’s all a part of God’s Plan. "God" 'pre-planned' these events.

Every child who is orphaned, whose parents and siblings are killed as a part of local terrorism –drive-by shootings, police violence, external terrorism –it’s all a part of God’s Plan.

Every person, infant, child, teen or adult who is starved, tortured, or who has their family members tortured or killed in front of them –Again, inescapably, it’s all part of their God’s Plan.

In every one of the horribly true and frequent events listed above, "God" had this in mind and executed a 'plan' to be sure these events occurred, and to the person, who we can we can refer to in this context as a target or, more properly, a victim. Luckily, in the human world, this form of planning and action are categorized as "premeditated crimes" and as such,, as the believers assert, these crimes are perpetrated by their "God."

What is required for an onlooker to simply say, “that’s not a good plan” and, of course, “the planner is clearly sick, twisted, demented and malevolent”?

At what point will every reader of this who doubts or dismisses this truth face the real reason they are unwilling to attempt to live in honesty and let go of their bias –their fear?

At what point will someone simply say “I’m not going to remain in denial, and I will take action that this “God” cannot and will not take, and I will take responsibility for improving the lives of those around me and do whatever I must to help others to reach the same decision. These are free persons, and good.

Those who retain the bias will continue to give their Great Torturer a pass, bow their heads to it and pray for it to continue its sick, twisted, demented and malevolent “Plan”, all the while nursing their private fear and hope it won’t notice them and exact its “Plan” on them. These persons are enslaved, in fear, not to be trusted.

Voltaire categorically clarified this sordid state of human affairs in several documents and letters.  Here are a few:

 

“La nôtre [religion] est sans contredit la plus ridicule, la plus absurde, et la plus sanguinaire qui ait jamais infecté le monde.”

“Ours is assuredly the most ridiculous, the most absurd and the most bloody religion which has ever infected this world.” (of christianity)

 

 

“Certainement qui est en droit de vous rendre absurde est en droit de vous rendre injuste”

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.

 

“Quoi que vous fassiez, écrasez l'infâme, et aimez qui vous aime.”

“Whatever you do, crush the infamous thing, and love those who love  you” (the “infamous thing” = superstition)

 

“L'homme est libre au moment qu'il veut l'être.”

“Man is free at the instant he wants to be.”

    

                                                  Who, then, Will Choose To Be Free?

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

The notion of "god's plan" is what ultimately destroyed my faith in god's plan... which might have been part of god's plan. 

[MOHO]

There seems to be some comforting aspect of the god's plan dictum. It seems to relieve stress in the masses to not have to take responsibility and believe and a powerful sky daddy who will make everything alright. Pastors and purveyors of socialism all exploit that emotion.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

2 hours ago, MOHO said:

 

 Pastors and purveyors of socialism all exploit that emotion.

 

I was following what you were saying up to that point.  Please explain the connection.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The notion of "god's plan" is what ultimately destroyed my faith in god's plan... which might have been part of god's plan. 

 

And decades ago I prayed to God to help me find the truth about religion.  I guess it was God's plan, and an answer to my prayer, to be led out of religion.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

30 minutes ago, Weezer said:

 

And decades ago I prayed to God to help me find the truth about religion.  I guess it was God's plan, and an answer to my prayer, to be led out of religion.

It's a mind-fuck, to be sure.

[Joshpantera]

43 minutes ago, Weezer said:

 

And decades ago I prayed to God to help me find the truth about religion.  I guess it was God's plan, and an answer to my prayer, to be led out of religion.

 

I was very curious about pantheism when I first started looking into it. Like a lot of the mystics these days, I recognized that the god is just the universe. But I still wondered about it from the perspective of god being the universe itself. And like you, I offered up a prayer to be granted knowledge about the truth behind the bible and religion. What the hell. Why not? a prayer off to the universe of which I am. 

 

What happened is that I was almost immediately bombarded with relevant information. Information which led to the pagan origins of YHWH. Information which led me by the hand to comparative world mythology and religion. Biblical criticism. Minimalist archaeology. Jesus mythicism. Atheist authors. And esoteric literature and information. 

 

I realize now why this happened, or a dam good reason for why it happened, let's say. This business about sub conscious mind. Synchronistic events surround the minds desire to know or understand this or that. It can avalanche. And obviously it wasn't a "god" leading any of us by the hand showing us what's false about itself. It so happens that wanting to know the truth about religion leads to exposing the lies of religion. Because the facts fall in that direction. There's no where else for the mind to lead if truth seeking is the objective of the mind. 

 

16 hours ago, YakRider said:

What is required for an onlooker to simply say, “that’s not a good plan” and, of course, “the planner is clearly sick, twisted, demented and malevolent”?

 

At what point will every reader of this who doubts or dismisses this truth face the real reason they are unwilling to attempt to live in honesty and let go of their bias –their fear?

 

At what point will someone simply say “I’m not going to remain in denial, and I will take action that this “God” cannot and will not take, and I will take responsibility for improving the lives of those around me and do whatever I must to help others to reach the same decision. These are free persons, and good.

 

Those who retain the bias will continue to give their Great Torturer a pass, bow their heads to it and pray for it to continue its sick, twisted, demented and malevolent “Plan”, all the while nursing their private fear and hope it won’t notice them and exact its “Plan” on them.

 

Thanks for posting this. And Welcome. 

 

We have some ex Calvinists here who know this all too well. And we've had some Calvinist apologists visit last year raising hell and havoc with members here. What you've written summarizes the way in which we handled the said Calvinists. 

 

We took them by their noses and rubbed them in their own crap!!!!

 

We forced them to try and face off with the problems associated with, "gods plan." Predestination, presupposition, and apriori assumptions were made transparent. We didn't do this to be mean. We did this because the Calvinist apologists came here with the intent of 'bullying' ex christians around. So we whipped their god dam asses raw in response. Maybe we should have played nice or taken it easy. But that's not what happened. The apologist's ran off crying and ass hurt. But bullying reaps the risk of getting out bullied by those bigger than you!!! I hope they took a good lesson from it as they ran off crying. 

 

Anywho, all good points you raise.

 

There's no way out of any of this when a person believes that god is all-knowing with a specific plan in motion. The simplest explanation is that there is no god planning all of this BS. No plan behind the rape, no plan behind the killing. And no plan behind any of it. It's just the confused rambling of ancient people who didn't have the mental capacity to imagine anything more than these contradicting beliefs and claims. And people are ill advised to carry on these ancient beliefs and flaccid claims. Because they necessarily end in failure. They were never thought out far enough to begin with. And apologetic's now are not capable of changing the failure dynamic associated with said beliefs. That seems to be a tough lesson that many still have to learn. 

[YakRider]

7 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The notion of "god's plan" is what ultimately destroyed my faith in god's plan... which might have been part of god's plan. 

Yup. A rose is a rose a rose, right?

It's a big part of why I ejected as well. The whole divided notion of "god is love" and "god plans and executes horrible things with people" is too much dissonance for me.

I like the Epicurean paradox because it seems that someone figured this mess out in ancient Greece and the truth of it still holds today.

 

But, mebbe that's part of the Plan, too, eh? :-)

Yak

[YakRider]

6 hours ago, MOHO said:

There seems to be some comforting aspect of the god's plan dictum. It seems to relieve stress in the masses to not have to take responsibility and believe and a powerful sky daddy who will make everything alright. Pastors and purveyors of socialism all exploit that emotion.

I'm with that. However, it may appear to relieve some stress on the surface; but the amount of bald-faced denial that has to go on when a person *witnesses* or experiences the events that demonstrate that skydaddy is outright malicious, is astronomical. The philosopher was right when he called religion opium for the masses. The shitty part is that, like opium, they get addicted...

[YakRider]

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

It's a mind-fuck, to be sure.

Hear hear. A mindfuck. I like Voltaire's simple phrase that we can get free if we choose to. I choose to.

[YakRider]

4 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

I was very curious about pantheism when I first started looking into it. Like a lot of the mystics these days, I recognized that the god is just the universe. But I still wondered about it from the perspective of god being the universe itself. And like you, I offered up a prayer to be granted knowledge about the truth behind the bible and religion. What the hell. Why not? a prayer off to the universe of which I am. 

 

What happened is that I was almost immediately bombarded with relevant information. Information which led to the pagan origins of YHWH. Information which led me by the hand to comparative world mythology and religion. Biblical criticism. Minimalist archaeology. Jesus mythicism. Atheist authors. And esoteric literature and information. 

 

I realize now why this happened, or a dam good reason for why it happened, let's say. This business about sub conscious mind. Synchronistic events surround the minds desire to know or understand this or that. It can avalanche. And obviously it wasn't a "god" leading any of us by the hand showing us what's false about itself. It so happens that wanting to know the truth about religion leads to exposing the lies of religion. Because the facts fall in that direction. There's no where else for the mind to lead if truth seeking is the objective of the mind. 

 

 

Thanks for posting this. And Welcome. 

 

We have some ex Calvinists here who know this all too well. And we've had some Calvinist apologists visit last year raising hell and havoc with members here. What you've written summarizes the way in which we handled the said Calvinists. 

 

We took them by their noses and rubbed them in their own crap!!!!

 

We forced them to try and face off with the problems associated with, "gods plan." Predestination, presupposition, and apriori assumptions were made transparent. We didn't do this to be mean. We did this because the Calvinist apologists came here with the intent of 'bullying' ex christians around. So we whipped their god dam asses raw in response. Maybe we should have played nice or taken it easy. But that's not what happened. The apologist's ran off crying and ass hurt. But bullying reaps the risk of getting out bullied by those bigger than you!!! I hope they took a good lesson from it as they ran off crying. 

 

Anywho, all good points you raise.

 

There's no way out of any of this when a person believes that god is all-knowing with a specific plan in motion. The simplest explanation is that there is no god planning all of this BS. No plan behind the rape, no plan behind the killing. And no plan behind any of it. It's just the confused rambling of ancient people who didn't have the mental capacity to imagine anything more than these contradicting beliefs and claims. And people are ill advised to carry on these ancient beliefs and flaccid claims. Because they necessarily end in failure. They were never thought out far enough to begin with. And apologetic's now are not capable of changing the failure dynamic associated with said beliefs. That seems to be a tough lesson that many still have to learn. 

 

Thanks, Josh. It's good to be back. I'm rather pleased to hear about your guys ass-whipping the bullies who showed up on the block. You certainly took them to school with their own ugly and unsupportable doctrine. When I was deconverting one of the things that I kept in my mind while working through my own struggles undoing the web of lies was that Calvin himself was a deeply disturbed man. He saw to it that the gentleman he had been corresponding with was killed because he "didn't believe." Calvin was Swiss Taliban. But then again, so are most evangelicals. Give those simple but gullible people them a hard line and they will run anyone through with it.

 

Moho had a good point. He mentioned that this notion of "god's plan" is somehow a stress relief for many, but I still have trouble understanding what it is about the situation and the human mind that prevents an onlooker from identifying the subject as completely bogus and opposite of what they are being told. What are your thoughts about why this is?

 

 

 

[YakRider]

I wonder if some talented folks could put together a video during their "down time' that we're experiencing that on one side of the screen showing the "God's plan" quotes and even their religious writings, perhaps videos of their 'preachers" or priests spouting that mess and on the right of the screen show the utter devastation, death, torture and ugliness that is all over the news and elsewhere to call their mess out?

 

We're in an age where people are more persuaded by what they see-and-hear though a video like that. 

 

Any folks handy with some basic video editing skills out there?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@YakRider, you might find this of some interest:

 

 

[YakRider]

34 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

@YakRider, you might find this of some interest:

 

 

Oh. Thanks RP. Checking it out now. It looks juicy....

[Joshpantera]

3 hours ago, YakRider said:

Moho had a good point. He mentioned that this notion of "god's plan" is somehow a stress relief for many, but I still have trouble understanding what it is about the situation and the human mind that prevents an onlooker from identifying the subject as completely bogus and opposite of what they are being told. What are your thoughts about why this is?

 

I think it's a stress relief because most people don't think it all the way through. Because when you do think it all the way through, it's probably more stressful than stress free.

 

Thinking it all the way through, we're then looking at a horrible human ego on steroids, when looking at a supernatural god who would carry out a plan that involves all of this.

 

'Cower at my feet loving and praising my very name or else suffer eternal torment?'

 

WTF is that? 'What ever I say or do is good, regardless of whether or not it looks, feels, makes your experience really bad!'  

 

With people worshiping a god like this, it's no wonder Calvin was like the Taliban. Or why the Taliban is the Taliban for that matter. All the way down to why those two assholes who came here last year are the two assholes that they are in life. It's a reflection from the asshole god down to the groveling follower sheeple, as shit rolls down hill.

 

Instead of looking at the situation sensibly, and seeing it's flaws, they instead cling to it all the more tightly because it's self reaffirming of their own egoic and narcissistic personalities. God can be an asshole and all good, so they figure despite the fact that they're raging assholes they can still maintain that they are good anyways as well. I'm talking about the apologist's here.

 

The whole thing hinges on maintaining the self reassuring delusion that they are right and everyone else is wrong. They're way up here, the rest of us way down below. That's why I don't mind knocking their blocks off and issuing the necessary reality check when and where it's warranted. They are fundamentally stuck on the lower ground in these debates and discussions. With no clear way of elevating up off of the lower ground. They have no compelling evidence. Logic works against them. Rational thinking works opposite their conclusions. Their beliefs are demonstrably wrong one after the next. And yet, despite all of this, they insist that they're on top of the world. 

 

Meanwhile they look like this: 

 

 

[MOHO]

22 hours ago, Weezer said:

I was following what you were saying up to that point.  Please explain the connection.

OK.

Maybe a bit of a stretch to connect those two dots but I see some of the same need to be taken care of in both xianity and socialism/communism.

Not really wanting to take the argument in that direction and I regretted the comment shortly after mashing the "Submit Reply" button.

[YakRider]

5 hours ago, MOHO said:

OK.

Maybe a bit of a stretch to connect those two dots but I see some of the same need to be taken care of in both xianity and socialism/communism.

Not really wanting to take the argument in that direction and I regretted the comment shortly after mashing the "Submit Reply" button.

Moho: I think you have a good point which I take to mean, "Don't go into *anything* that offers promises of relief, platitudes and denial and expects compliance."

I think the matter applies to all of these. After all, why are you and I on this site? We were roped-in to something that is so damaging and so corrupt and "accepted* uncritically. My point is that some kind of action is required to expose the matter more. Sure there will be push back, but there exists a proliferation of images, video, sound and print of these bad actors spouting their unsupportable doctrine. The same is true of the reality that exposes examples that "God's Plan" is in fact a) a fallacy/outright lie and, b) that any "god" making such a "plan" (since they believe one exists) is without a doubt malevolent, impotent or at the very least, non-existent. (again, referring to Epicurus' famous dilemma). 

 

[YakRider]

21 hours ago, YakRider said:

Oh. Thanks RP. Checking it out now. It looks juicy....

 

Well said, RP. You clinch the point in that article.

 

The fact that any human would not only follow, but spread the christian message that their fiend-god has a plan for someone's life shows that the person is not just gullible, but complicit in spreading its evil. 

 

It was also humorous and pleasing to see the opposition spitting their talisman quotes from their book at your clear premise..and exposing the shallowness As I said earlier, those people get engaged with their beliefs uncritically. Perhaps they started out as children in a family where it "just what we did" but growing up in a church and really didn't have a chance to develop critical thinking faculties. There are those too, who contracted the christian disease at an older age. My belief, and I think it is supportable, that they bought a "whole package" of beliefs uncritically or by being provided misdirection over a long period of time that allowed them to become somewhat numb to the problems, and, of course, being provided with "christian apologetics" which is, of course, not about "learning about your faith" but learning to become arrogant with one's beliefs, a lot like your opposition who responded to your article.

 

I would like to drop-in the Epicurean Trilemma, since I've been alluding to it. Perhaps it will assist in clarifying my premise particular discussion:

The "Epicurus' Trilemma or paradox:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

— The Epicurean paradox, ~300 BCE

[older]

On 5/3/2020 at 3:35 PM, YakRider said:

Moho had a good point. He mentioned that this notion of "god's plan" is somehow a stress relief for many, but I still have trouble understanding what it is about the situation and the human mind that prevents an onlooker from identifying the subject as completely bogus and opposite of what they are being told. What are your thoughts about why this is?

  

My thoughts are that it all comes down to fear. Most of us when we were little were afraid of the dark. But if we hid under the bed covers we were OK. And somehow later as young adults backpacking in the forest the thin nylon tent kept us safe from the bears. But when someone once said that what's out there at night is the same as what's out there during the day, that night fear subsided. And when we learned all about the bears and how they behave, that fear subsided. But there are many things about life for which we have no answers and those things create fear in many people. The fear of death; the fear of anything we do not understand or cannot control. Some of us recognize that things beyond our understanding or control are part of life and are OK, but others can't get to that place. They are so full of fear that they can't even look for that place, and so they need the bedcovers, the nylon tent, that is religion.

[YakRider]

On 5/4/2020 at 11:09 PM, older said:

  

My thoughts are that it all comes down to fear. Most of us when we were little were afraid of the dark. But if we hid under the bed covers we were OK. And somehow later as young adults backpacking in the forest the thin nylon tent kept us safe from the bears. But when someone once said that what's out there at night is the same as what's out there during the day, that night fear subsided. And when we learned all about the bears and how they behave, that fear subsided. But there are many things about life for which we have no answers and those things create fear in many people. The fear of death; the fear of anything we do not understand or cannot control. Some of us recognize that things beyond our understanding or control are part of life and are OK, but others can't get to that place. They are so full of fear that they can't even look for that place, and so they need the bedcovers, the nylon tent, that is religion.

 

Indeed. Well-said.

Fear is a great motivator, especially when crafted by individuals and organizations that expect a payoff from inculcating that fear.  Using, as you say, something that one cannot control or that is beyond understanding is a commonly used tool in the hands of such individuals.  The fear of "what's after death" and of death itself are a common themes, because no one has been there and back to confirm or deny what is "beyond." The fear of the "god" is a holdover from ancient assignment of frightening natural forces to some unseen and highly powerful, capricious being. Again, since no one has seen it, no one can confirm of deny its existence.  That of course does not stop them from connecting this to the "just world" cognitive error, and events as mundane as "praying" to this "god" to find ones keys" but glossing over the fact that when they "pray" for peace or the protection or health of someone, it does not occur. One can indeed hold two irreconcilable or opposing thoughts in their mind at the same time, and act on them, when fear is a motivating factor. 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

On 5/4/2020 at 6:03 PM, YakRider said:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

— The Epicurean paradox, ~300 BCE

 

Is god not evil as well as good simultaneous? Then god is not omnipresent. 

 

- Joshpantera, 2020 CE

 

 

[YakRider]

19 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Is god not evil as well as good simultaneous? Then god is not omnipresent. 

 

- Joshpantera, 2020 CE

 

 

 

Well-done!

Between you and Epicurus, I think you have nailed it.

When directly compared to the nonsense from the bible and other Abrahamic conceptions, I just refer to "it" simply as a bad actor.

 

I guess we should add it all to the "Ain't all that" list:

Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omnibenevolent, Omniscient...

Just, loving...

"Ineffable", but I know a lot of folks on this site would simple say "in-F-that "