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Goodbye Jesus

Biblical Marital Rape (TRIGGER WARNING)


Guest freedwoman

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     I always viewed this passage in the sense of the rest of the religion as in the two becoming one.  As in if that were my body would I go have sex with a prostitute or some random lover?  Since, in marriage, it is "mine" so I get to have a say whereas not being married it's not my choice.  It's a matter of respecting the marriage in some sense (sort of like loving others like yourself).  I suppose an extreme view could involve marital rape but divorce is also allowed so I guess that's the counter for abuses like that?

 

          mwc

 

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4 hours ago, mwc said:

     I always viewed this passage in the sense of the rest of the religion as in the two becoming one.  As in if that were my body would I go have sex with a prostitute or some random lover?  Since, in marriage, it is "mine" so I get to have a say whereas not being married it's not my choice.  It's a matter of respecting the marriage in some sense (sort of like loving others like yourself).  I suppose an extreme view could involve marital rape but divorce is also allowed so I guess that's the counter for abuses like that?

 

          mwc

 

Divorce is allowed? In the Bible? Certainly not the church I come from. 

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5 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Divorce is allowed? In the Bible? Certainly not the church I come from. 

Ditto.

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41 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Divorce is allowed? In the Bible? Certainly not the church I come from. 

 

There were certain situations in which a man could "put away his wife" i.e. divorce her. Didn't work in reverse though, shock horror.

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15 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

There were certain situations in which a man could "put away his wife" i.e. divorce her. Didn't work in reverse though, shock horror.

Oh what a shock! 😯

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18 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Divorce is allowed? In the Bible? Certainly not the church I come from. 

     I guess I wasn't entirely focused on the bible when I answered.  Thinking back on what I've read of how the Jews went about things about that time (so hopefully I'm recalling it somewhat correctly) the men had to initiate the divorce but if a woman wanted to get a divorce she basically just made it known she wanted one and that was good enough (if he didn't want one she'd just make it known publicly and he'd get motivated that way).  So he'd always be the one to make the divorce and all the paperwork.

 

     I wanted to look for a copy of the paperwork and came across this site that explains it all better than I'm doing here.  I'm not sure as to when these rules from this site actually went into practice so the NT could be speaking against something entirely different and none of this applies.  It's always hard to say.  Anyhow,  it's clear none of this is in the bible.  I'm not saying it is.  I'm just saying this is just some of what I had in mind when I made my answer.

 

          mwc

 

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2 hours ago, mwc said:

     I guess I wasn't entirely focused on the bible when I answered.  Thinking back on what I've read of how the Jews went about things about that time (so hopefully I'm recalling it somewhat correctly) the men had to initiate the divorce but if a woman wanted to get a divorce she basically just made it known she wanted one and that was good enough (if he didn't want one she'd just make it known publicly and he'd get motivated that way).  So he'd always be the one to make the divorce and all the paperwork.

 

     I wanted to look for a copy of the paperwork and came across this site that explains it all better than I'm doing here.  I'm not sure as to when these rules from this site actually went into practice so the NT could be speaking against something entirely different and none of this applies.  It's always hard to say.  Anyhow,  it's clear none of this is in the bible.  I'm not saying it is.  I'm just saying this is just some of what I had in mind when I made my answer.

 

          mwc

 

Well there were many many years during which the Bible was written and as you said the first part was written by the Jews and latter by the xtians so it's not surprising that there are contradictions everywhere and as many interpretations of the Bible as there are xtians and Jews. 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape

 

Marital rape or spousal rape is the act of sexual intercourse with one's spouse without the spouse's consent. The lack of consent is the essential element and need not involve physical violence. Marital rape is considered a form of domestic violence and sexual abuse. Although, historically, sexual intercourse within marriage was regarded as a right of spouses, engaging in the act without the spouse's consent is now widely classified as rape by many societies around the world, repudiated by international conventions, and increasingly criminalized.

 

On 5/9/2020 at 9:43 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

The full passage in context is this:

 

1 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 

 

In this verse the writer refers to some puritan believers who think that Christians should not have sex, but to pray and watch for the 'second coming' constantly. 

 

2But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.

 

Here the writer points out that believers are doing sexual immoral acts anyway (Probably sex without marriage etc) so its best that they have god sanctioned sex (I.e. marriage sex)

 

 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.

 

This is not a command or condonment of rape, in fact its surprising dual sided considering some of the shit in the NT. Now of course the idea that someone else has authority over your body is simply wrong, but at least the writer is playing the equality card. Certainly there seems no contextual intent to condone rape.

 

 5Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

 

Again here is a reference to the first verse where a believer suggested no sex, but the writer says have sex, just not all the time so you have time to pray.

 

GFW

 

The bronze age belief here is that once married each persons body is duty bound to their spouse where sex is concerned. So there really wasn't a situation of consent or not consent. There was just a default position of consent as part of the marriage. Paul's just relaying existing beliefs of the time to a church he started. And a marriage is similar to slavery in that sense. It's a slaves obey your masters type of situation going on with sex and marriage. 

 

But the bigger point is, obviously and so what? 

 

The bible is extremely outdated and has little place in the modern world. Certainly not as a moral guide. That's what we're outlining and promoting here. The bible is irrelevant in these ways. With marriage, with slavery, with misogyny and with any number of things. When you see nonsense in the bible, call it nonsense. And start the process of moving on. Maybe that's all this is. You trying to move on. Which involves venting or raging. 

 

The concern here is that we don't want to condone poorly framed arguments against the bible that our critics will certainly jump on and try and exploit. Just think of this as peer review of an argument you've tried to frame. If it's not framed well, then the peer review will reveal the weak points. Better here than off in some public exchange with a christian who may then win the exchange and parade around acting as if they've taken the high ground or something like that. 

 

There are much firmer arguments available to poke them with.........

 

 

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11 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape

 

Marital rape or spousal rape is the act of sexual intercourse with one's spouse without the spouse's consent. The lack of consent is the essential element and need not involve physical violence. Marital rape is considered a form of domestic violence and sexual abuse. Although, historically, sexual intercourse within marriage was regarded as a right of spouses, engaging in the act without the spouse's consent is now widely classified as rape by many societies around the world, repudiated by international conventions, and increasingly criminalized.

 

 

GFW

 

The bronze age belief here is that once married each persons body is duty bound to their spouse where sex is concerned. So there really wasn't a situation of consent or not consent. There was just a default position of consent as part of the marriage. Paul's just relaying existing beliefs of the time to a church he started. And a marriage is similar to slavery in that sense. It's a slaves obey your masters type of situation going on with sex and marriage. 

 

But the bigger point is, obviously and so what? 

 

The bible is extremely outdated and has little place in the modern world. Certainly not as a moral guide. That's what we're outlining and promoting here. The bible is irrelevant in these ways. With marriage, with slavery, with misogyny and with any number of things. When you see nonsense in the bible, call it nonsense. And start the process of moving on. Maybe that's all this is. You trying to move on. Which involves venting or raging. 

 

Pretty sure that's what this is. I had a period of venting and raging - it's related to processing the trauma, in this case as @freedwoman has said, regarding treatment by her mother and other women. The worst thing about patriarchy for women in the church is that it's other women, mothers and others, who subjugate and control their daughters. It can result in intense rage and feelings of betrayal, and in a lot of cases the relationship will change in ways that are inevitable, ie become distant and strained. 

 

So we need to let people process. Let's remember she's looking for validation and support here and it's easy to react emotionally when people point out issues that don't add up. Eventually, it gets easier. 

 

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  • 1 month later...

This whole pile-on for the guest reminds me of why I rarely ever visit here and never post here. 

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On 6/24/2020 at 1:11 PM, Jutta said:

This whole pile-on for the guest reminds me of why I rarely ever visit here and never post here. 

 

Sorry you feel that way.

 

A lot was going on with Freed Woman, and others were not privy to PM's going back and forth. Be careful to not to judge a situation that you don't have the full facts of. 

 

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On 5/11/2020 at 8:02 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

But one is agreeing to submit.  I'm not defending it; it's pretty fucked up.  But, if one partner agrees to submit, it is not non-consensual sex (also known as "rape").  

This may be the only intelligent thing I've seen you say.

On 5/11/2020 at 8:55 PM, Guest freedwoman said:

Forced submission??? What if the spouse REFUSES to submit and have sex??? 

Taking a vow to love, cherish, honour and obey the husband. That's what marriage for a woman is. They do it at an altar in the presence of God. Doesn't excuse insensitive or brutish husbands, though.

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