AntiChrist Posted May 29, 2020 Author Share Posted May 29, 2020 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: Good question. Off the cuff, I think it's a level of desperation to be known other than how we perceive ourselves. So when we are questioned, defensiveness pops up. Btw, your original question was exceptional. Thx. Thankyou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 29, 2020 Super Moderator Share Posted May 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Well, if you believe you are a bad person, which most of us probably have great potential, then Christianity confirms our lack of being complete and gives us a mechanism to be better people. Pretty straightforward. No, no, no. Christianity defines you as "bad." You are a lowly and flawed creature forever beholden to its creator. And there is nothing you can do other than hope grace is extended to you. It is impossible for such a degenerate to improve himself and grace is apparently doled out at God's whim. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 12 minutes ago, florduh said: No, no, no. Christianity defines you as "bad." You are a lowly and flawed creature forever beholden to its creator. And there is nothing you can do other than hope grace is extended to you. It is impossible for such a degenerate to improve himself and grace is apparently doled out at God's whim. You've stepped on an ant before, right... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 29, 2020 Super Moderator Share Posted May 29, 2020 13 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: You've stepped on an ant before, right... WTF are you going on about??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 30 minutes ago, florduh said: WTF are you going on about??? I can't help you can't keep up at your age....the mental leaps. We are subject to whatever...God, the Universe, something larger. Likewise, there are things subject to us. I'm just saying that within your own righteousness, you have probably killed an ant, as God has, some evil human. You understood the ant could sting, God understands the capabilities of man. The problem is you are projecting your moral subjectivity on to a larger... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 29, 2020 Super Moderator Share Posted May 29, 2020 11 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I can't help you can't keep up at your age....the mental leaps. We are subject to whatever...God, the Universe, something larger. Likewise, there are things subject to us. I'm just saying that within your own righteousness, you have probably killed an ant, as God has, some evil human. You understood the ant could sting, God understands the capabilities of man. The problem is you are projecting your moral subjectivity on to a larger... Well, this certainly explains Hitler... wait... never mind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntiChrist Posted May 29, 2020 Author Share Posted May 29, 2020 25 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I can't help you can't keep up at your age....the mental leaps. We are subject to whatever...God, the Universe, something larger. Likewise, there are things subject to us. I'm just saying that within your own righteousness, you have probably killed an ant, as God has, some evil human. You understood the ant could sting, God understands the capabilities of man. The problem is you are projecting your moral subjectivity on to a larger... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 44 minutes ago, AntiChrist said: Lol, exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 29, 2020 Super Moderator Share Posted May 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Edgarcito said: I can't help you can't keep up at your age....the mental leaps. We are subject to whatever...God, the Universe, something larger. Likewise, there are things subject to us. I'm just saying that within your own righteousness, you have probably killed an ant, as God has, some evil human. You understood the ant could sting, God understands the capabilities of man. The problem is you are projecting your moral subjectivity on to a larger... Yes, I need explanations in plain, coherent English (or very forgiving Spanish).. When I was younger I was better at deciphering gibberish. But seriously, THIS is your analogy? It might work somewhat if man created the ants and was then displeased with them for acting like ants, as we knew they would. We humans would also need a way to torture the bad ants forever and not just kill them. And some clarification is needed on the fact that God created the "evil human" with complete foreknowledge and therefore it's his own doing. But I'm just a befuddled senior citizen. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted May 30, 2020 Moderator Share Posted May 30, 2020 FYI, christians tend to have major difficulties thinking anything all the way through, or at least far enough out ahead of themselves to make it into respectable territory. And if they do, well, there goes christianity and they're no longer christian. It's the whole stuck in the back of a cave thing again. It's dark in there. Can't see anything out ahead. Can't seem to think two or three steps out in front of your own faces. Sort of like many contemporary journalists now that I think about it. But that's neither here nor there. We can keep it about christians..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 13 hours ago, Edgarcito said: You're another Dbag Weezer...."Half the population is 'good riddance!" jackass You are jumping to conclusions and reading something into that, that I did not say. I meant good riddance to the people who did not like his questioning and cut him off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 I can't help you can't keep up at your age....the mental leaps. We are subject to whatever...God, the Universe, something larger. Likewise, there are things subject to us. I'm just saying that within your own righteousness, you have probably killed an ant, as God has, some evil human. You understood the ant could sting, God understands the capabilities of man. The problem is you are projecting your moral subjectivity on to a larger... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to the book of Genesis god DID step on every ant human in the world, except for Noah's family. I certainly can't keep up with the mental leap required to accept that this was within his righteousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 1 hour ago, WalterP said: I can't help you can't keep up at your age....the mental leaps. We are subject to whatever...God, the Universe, something larger. Likewise, there are things subject to us. I'm just saying that within your own righteousness, you have probably killed an ant, as God has, some evil human. You understood the ant could sting, God understands the capabilities of man. The problem is you are projecting your moral subjectivity on to a larger... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to the book of Genesis god DID step on every ant human in the world, except for Noah's family. I certainly can't keep up with the mental leap required to accept that this was within his righteousness. That was my point, I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 23 hours ago, AntiChrist said: Think back to your childhood. What evidence was presented to you by your caretakers in regards to what is right and wrong? It was wrong to steal that cookie, because stealing was proven wrong as a logical fact? Or was the lesson in morality an aggressive smack on the hand? It was always implied...no data given. We didn't get spanked much...just "the look" of you are so inadequate and I'll blow up if you do that again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 17 hours ago, florduh said: Yes, I need explanations in plain, coherent English (or very forgiving Spanish).. When I was younger I was better at deciphering gibberish. But seriously, THIS is your analogy? It might work somewhat if man created the ants and was then displeased with them for acting like ants, as we knew they would. We humans would also need a way to torture the bad ants forever and not just kill them. And some clarification is needed on the fact that God created the "evil human" with complete foreknowledge and therefore it's his own doing. But I'm just a befuddled senior citizen. Had a deviant childhood friend that would put model glue on crickets and set them on fire. As a grade school child he did this. To the latter, we aren't gonna solve that one....but thanks for bringing it up ....again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntiChrist Posted May 30, 2020 Author Share Posted May 30, 2020 15 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: It was always implied...no data given. We didn't get spanked much...just "the look" of you are so inadequate and I'll blow up if you do that again... People only resort to aggression once their value system has been stepped on. Had you believed a piece of broccoli was more valuable than a chocolate chip cookie, your careunderlings would be scratching their heads thinking "What is wrong with that kid?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntiChrist Posted May 30, 2020 Author Share Posted May 30, 2020 26 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Had a deviant childhood friend that would put model glue on crickets and set them on fire. As a grade school child he did this. To the latter, we aren't gonna solve that one....but thanks for bringing it up ....again. I had some childhood friends like that too. You know adults don't become crazy at some point in their future, they became crazy at some point back in their childhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntiChrist Posted May 30, 2020 Author Share Posted May 30, 2020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 30, 2020 Super Moderator Share Posted May 30, 2020 2 hours ago, Edgarcito said: To the latter, we aren't gonna solve that one....but thanks for bringing it up ....again. It keeps getting brought up because neither you nor anyone else has ever addressed it. We're just supposed to overlook it and have faith? I shall stop bringing it up once it has been logically addressed. Until such time, you have a very large elephant in your room. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 3 hours ago, Edgarcito said: That was my point, I'm sure. Well Edgarcito, I'm very glad that I can't and won't make your kind of leap of faith. I could never look myself in the mirror again if I did that. Writing off millions of drowning babies and pregnant women as evil and deserving of agonizing death... ...while loving, praising and excusing the 'pure, holy and eternally good' agent of their pain and suffering? No. Not for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntiChrist Posted May 30, 2020 Author Share Posted May 30, 2020 Reasons. John Farnham Some people are dreamers, they live for the future As if it would work out, just as they dreamed it Would work out - somehow Others get caught in, yesterday's papers Too busy reading, to get on with living But I - live for now Sometimes it's easy to make up excuses On the flimsiest pretext and then call them reasons But where are they now? Like I'm way too busy, I can't be involved now And then there's the standby about understanding But they're - wrong somehow I'll climb more than a mountain Swim more than an ocean Build up an island Live for a lifetime Just give me a reason and I'll come running When I have reasons, I know the way I'm pointing my feet in the right direction Give me a reason Some people are dreamers, they live for the future As if it would work out, just as they dreamed it Would work out - somehow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 Because in this case belief isn't belief. It's actually a rhetoric device that amounts to reasoning. I didn't check every single reference to "believe" but I checked quite a few and they all come from "pistis" so we'll just be lazy and go to Wikipedia for pistis: Christian concepts of faith (pistis) were borrowed from Greek rhetorical notions of pistis.[6] Christian pistis deems its persuasion in a positive light as the New Testament concepts of pistis require that a listener be knowledgeable of the subject matter at issue and thus able to fully assent.[6] Whereas, the Greeks took the notion of pistis as persuasive discourse that was elliptical and concentrated on the "affect and effect rather than on the representation of the truth."[7] The evolution of pistis in Christianity as a persuasive rhetorical technique starkly contrasts with its meaning used by the Greeks.[how?][6] So we'll wander on over to Enthymeme which is where this comes from: An enthymeme (Greek: ἐνθύμημα, enthumēma) is a rhetorical syllogism (a three-part deductive argument) used in oratorical practice. Originally theorized by Aristotle, there are four types of enthymeme, at least two of which are described in Aristotle's work.[1] Aristotle referred to the enthymeme as "the body of proof", "the strongest of rhetorical proofs...a kind of syllogism" (Rhetoric I.I.3,11). He considered it to be one of two kinds of proof, the other of which was the paradeigma. Maxims, Aristotle thought, were a derivative of enthymemes. (Rhetoric II.XX.1) Go to the page to see examples. Anyhow, xians weren't looking for blind faith. They were using Aristotelian logic. Belief had to be grounded in something. It's not their fault that this line of "logic" wound up being rather faulty and "belief" has now morphed into something entirely different. Once you see the examples you can see it play out in the NT and other writings. They're sadly, now, proud of being blindly believing things and not having any supporting evidence for anything. mwc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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