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I don't think anyone is saying murder is okay, the argument seems to be whether the issue is racism (would an overly aggressive cop have killed the criminal regardless of his skin colour?  Did he do h

If this past year has taught me anything, it's that staying sober isn't worth it. 

Two videos. First Candace Owens on the criminal record and autopsy report of George Floyd:      Everyone pretty much agrees that the cops have no right to kill people like tha

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11 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Again, this doesn't quite make sense with respect to my post. We are talking about the present, not the past. Both in terms of racism now and feminism now. We know that it was different in the past. No one is arguing that it wasn't different. There was systemic racism. There was basically systemic misogyny as well. Our discussion has to do with how people tackled those issues over the last 50 years.

     How did things change if no one made those changes?  Obviously, they did change.  As I said, the attitudes did change.  Through a variety of means.  And for those who experienced those changes it wasn't necessarily easy on either side.  To simply accept it, in the present, as being the way it is, with a sense that it has always been this way or it has been this way long enough for me, is a bit of a gloss.

 

     We may well be living in those sort of times yet again.

 

11 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Things have changed, on a systemic level, big time. And people are acting as though none of this has happened, and nothing changed. The nation is racist and the police are racist and all of these broad brushing logical fallacies that will never hold up when challenged. This is the impression that is being given off. And it's a logically fallacious impression, a bangwagon fallacy among others. It's true, because a bunch of people think it's true and have made it popular and fashionable to agree. Even though they can't seem to hammer it down with solid evidence and compelling arguments. 

     I could say others seem to think everything has changed when it hasn't.

 

     Even the brief run-through I did of the sources from the video from yesterday showed that.  I could do as was being done in the video and spotlight a few "success" stories in those sources but those weren't the actual conclusions being drawn.  When I get the time I'll go through the rest but I'm afraid I'm going to find the same trend throughout.

 

          mwc

 

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Asking out of curiosity: how many of the posters here have black or coloured people among their close circle of friends? (Not coworkers etc- people that you would disclose personal issues/problems with) How many of you that do have friends, have had discussions about race or racism? What kind of discussions were they? 

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12 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 


Joe Rogan for President!!!

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20 hours ago, mwc said:

How did things change if no one made those changes?  Obviously, they did change.  As I said, the attitudes did change.  Through a variety of means.  And for those who experienced those changes it wasn't necessarily easy on either side.  To simply accept it, in the present, as being the way it is, with a sense that it has always been this way or it has been this way long enough for me, is a bit of a gloss.

 

     We may well be living in those sort of times yet again.

 

I guess what it is, is that you struggle to it from the perspective I'm looking at. These changes were made in terms of generations of people growing in changing times, with changing attitudes. There's no sense at all here about accepting something as if it has always been this way. That's completely off the table. Everyone involved knows good and well that it hasn't always been this way. 

 

What do we mean by "this way?" 

 

What I mean is integrated society at the level that it is right now. State sanctioned, systemic integration from the top down. Institutional mandated systemic integration for the last 50 years or so. If cops can proven to act out of line or even be proven to act in a racist way, society will have their asses. Through the system. That's the way it is. The delusion here is allowing media fueled, subjective bandwagon material to convince people that the system is racist. When all of the evidences mentioned again and again by so many black who speak up about it, call bullshit on the whole thing. 

 

This the skeptics approach. Calling bullshit on the bandwagon. Pinning bandwagon adherents up against a wall and asking them to prove their claims. The onus is on those making the claims to prove them. Not vise versa, of course, and as per usual according to not operating with partisan bias or political oriented cognitive dissonance.

 

20 hours ago, mwc said:

I could say others seem to think everything has changed when it hasn't.

 

     Even the brief run-through I did of the sources from the video from yesterday showed that.  I could do as was being done in the video and spotlight a few "success" stories in those sources but those weren't the actual conclusions being drawn.  When I get the time I'll go through the rest but I'm afraid I'm going to find the same trend throughout.

 

          mwc

 

What hasn't changed? The system has changed completely on institutional level. What can you show me that hasn't changed? 

 

I wager that you can only show me individual people who retain some sort of bias towards races that are not their own. Even to the extent of looking at subconscious levels in order to try and find it. Individual people who by themselves are a minority in this society and do not represent a majority of opinion, nor represent entire systems operating in large scale, systemic racist agenda. 

 

Who's wearing the tin foil hat in this exchange really? 

 

Do you realize how conspiracy oriented this charge of systemic racism actually is? It's tin foil hat, Georgia type schiznick! Huge conspiracies going on at every level to keep the black man down, 50 years after the civil rights movement. I don't buy it any more than Morgan Freeman, or Lil' Wayne for that matter. 

 

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20 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Asking out of curiosity: how many of the posters here have black or coloured people among their close circle of friends? (Not coworkers etc- people that you would disclose personal issues/problems with) How many of you that do have friends, have had discussions about race or racism? What kind of discussions were they? 

 

I won't go deep into detail, but I was born in Miami. I grew up in south Florida in a church that was majority West Indian and Hispanic. A token white boy of sorts, surrounded by Islanders. A lot of whom were professional's and did well for themselves.

 

Racism can get reversed in these isolated areas and situations. And I had to fight constantly simply because I was white. I both had close friends and mortal enemies with the blacks and hispanics down there. That was in the 80's. But I've always been in mixed race regions here in Florida. And I've watched it change and evolve more and more from decade to decade. People have only gone in the direction of being more and more integrated, and less gang-like and tribal in that way. The 90's backed all that way down. Then the 2,000's. Then the teens. And here we are now that much more removed. 

 

I may be the odd man out, but maybe not. It's not exactly the mid western US experience down here....

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On 6/10/2020 at 6:17 AM, Joshpantera said:

 

Justus, we also seem to have some type of underlying communication difficulty. It's difficult to communicate with you a lot of the time. I don't know why. But I'm sure there's a reason. Not to pick on you or anyone else, but it's very difficult to understand what you mean at times. And it seems frustrating for you, as well, during a lot of these discussions.  

 

Can we try again? 

 

Is this sarcasm (I assume that's what I'm reading)? And if so, can you give me some direction as to what the sarcasm is referring to? 

 

Not really sarcasm, although it could be perceived as sarcastic if not understood to be an allegory.  

 

Since you don't seem to understand what systemic racism is then I can understand why you don't believe it exists, so can we agree that racism exists because of ultraviolet light?

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4 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

I guess what it is, is that you struggle to it from the perspective I'm looking at. These changes were made in terms of generations of people growing in changing times, with changing attitudes. There's no sense at all here about accepting something as if it has always been this way. That's completely off the table. Everyone involved knows good and well that it hasn't always been this way. 

 

What do we mean by "this way?" 

 

What I mean is integrated society at the level that it is right now. State sanctioned, systemic integration from the top down. Institutional mandated systemic integration for the last 50 years or so. If cops can proven to act out of line or even be proven to act in a racist way, society will have their asses. Through the system. That's the way it is. The delusion here is allowing media fueled, subjective bandwagon material to convince people that the system is racist. When all of the evidences mentioned again and again by so many black who speak up about it, call bullshit on the whole thing. 

     So changes were needed.  Things changed.  We arrived at today.  Things are apparently at the pinnacle of perfection.  We're all done.  For the one and only time in history?  I'm a little skeptical of this.

 

4 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

This the skeptics approach. Calling bullshit on the bandwagon. Pinning bandwagon adherents up against a wall and asking them to prove their claims. The onus is on those making the claims to prove them. Not vise versa, of course, and as per usual according to not operating with partisan bias or political oriented cognitive dissonance.

     Maybe it's not a bandwagon?

 

     Maybe it's just people wanting to be heard?  Yeah, I know, I say that and then get some response of some spotlights get shone on a few idiots to make the point of how those folks are trying get get on the bandwagon for whatever reason.  I'd better watch myself.  When I try to make short answers I open myself to intentional misdirection like this (I was just going to leave it at the question).

 

4 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

What hasn't changed? The system has changed completely on institutional level. What can you show me that hasn't changed? 

     And it must have been unpleasant for those who lived through it.  Who says the changes were complete or adequate?  Just you?  It seems change goes on.  The only constant is change (I can't recall who said this or if I've got it quite right).

 

4 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

I wager that you can only show me individual people who retain some sort of bias towards races that are not their own. Even to the extent of looking at subconscious levels in order to try and find it. Individual people who by themselves are a minority in this society and do not represent a majority of opinion, nor represent entire systems operating in large scale, systemic racist agenda. 

     You want to understand systems in some strange way so, yeah, I can't show you anything.  I really never intended to either.  I made one post in this thread and you responded to me.

 

     I can't help you if you want to understand systems as a collective, much like the Borg, in Star Trek who simply think and act in the same way all at the same time.  When a new instruction is given they all then take on that new directive and act accordingly.  Human, and other, systems work a bit differently and I've tried explaining that it various ways only to be ignored.

 

4 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

Who's wearing the tin foil hat in this exchange really? 

     Well, up until you've said this I wasn't thinking either of us but I've only seen one of us make anything close to resembling a conspiracy in this thread and it wasn't me so...

 

4 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

Do you realize how conspiracy oriented this charge of systemic racism actually is? It's tin foil hat, Georgia type schiznick! Huge conspiracies going on at every level to keep the black man down, 50 years after the civil rights movement. I don't buy it any more than Morgan Freeman, or Lil' Wayne for that matter. 

 

     Systemic issues have nothing to do with conspiracies.  They are simply failures in a system to perform as it should. It can be for many, many reasons.  It can be by design or not.  It can be overt or covert.  I've gone over this before.  I'd give yet another example but I know where that goes so I'm not going to bother.

 

          mwc

 

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I have no intention of getting involved in this discussion. But I think this is relevant.

 

 

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Re family and friends that are black or coloured, I was asking about present day as it's relevant. How many people have discussed racial issues with current colored or black friends and family and how have the discussions gone? 

 

My two good friends are married to men from Togo and between them they have biracial kids. They've lived in Europe and Canada, and there's been good and bad experiences in both places. I'm only close with one of them now but I hear her heartache. Her worry for her kids. Her long road to understanding why the childhood her kids are having is in some ways different from the one she had. Her determination to prepare her kids in some ways for what to her and her husband feels inevitable. 

 

Open your ears. Listen to your neighbors, your coworkers, everyone. 

 

Dear readers who have read this far, ask yourselves, which is more important to you: to be right about your claims, or to listen with the goal of improving this place for us all? 

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Bump...Joshpantera

 

12 hours ago, Justus said:

 

Not really sarcasm, although it could be perceived as sarcastic if not understood to be an allegory.  

 

Since you don't seem to understand what systemic racism is then I can understand why you don't believe it exists, so can we agree that racism exists because of ultraviolet light?

 

Well, I can understand why you couldn't agree on racism existing because of ultraviolet light but science proves that at one time all men were the same color, and according to Bill Nye we have different colored men because of ultraviolet light.  But if you were familiar with that theory then you would understand the ' white people were too stupid to eat the right diet which resulted in their different pigmentation' comment.

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Open your ears. Listen to your neighbors, your coworkers, everyone. 

 

Dear readers who have read this far, ask yourselves, which is more important to you: to be right about your claims, or to listen with the goal of improving this place for us all?

There are two separate areas being discussed.  Absolutely talk to family, friends and colleges, empathise with them and offer help if you can.  But this individual, anecdotal level is not where we should be looking for our laws, programs, reforms etc.  These structural changes need to be done with a view of the whole population or the segments affected by events and laws.  We need to know if the anecdotal stories are unique experiences, uncommon, common or universal.

So absolutely, help at an individual level but plan at a societal level.  If society has better outcomes (health, education, justice etc) then that lifts everyone.

 

One interesting commentator I've come across is "The Office Tatum", a black police officer who talks about black culture and his dislike of the BLM movement:

 

He talks both about his own personal experience (having had no racism against him) and about the structure, culture and where responsibility should lay.  He gives statistics, and he speaks from being a front line police officer for 7 years.  Maybe his voice will be more valuable because he is black?

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On 6/13/2020 at 1:01 PM, Justus said:

 

Not really sarcasm, although it could be perceived as sarcastic if not understood to be an allegory.  

 

Since you don't seem to understand what systemic racism is then I can understand why you don't believe it exists, so can we agree that racism exists because of ultraviolet light?

 

I understand that people are misusing the term systemic racism and applying to situations that are individual and not systemic, per the definition of systemic as being distinct and not the same as individual racism. All of the examples given for systemic racism boil down to not systemic racism. And that's the bandwagon fallacy in a nut shell. 

 

Here's another argument to add to the list of arguments coming from black American's arguing against the bandwagon fallacy of systemic racism: 

 

 

I grew up with a close friend circle of West Indian decent black Americans. Such as described in the video. 

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On 6/15/2020 at 7:15 AM, Joshpantera said:

 

I understand that people are misusing the term systemic racism and applying to situations that are individual and not systemic, per the definition of systemic as being distinct and not the same as individual racism. All of the examples given for systemic racism boil down to not systemic racism. And that's the bandwagon fallacy in a nut shell. 

 

Here's another argument to add to the list of arguments coming from black American's arguing against the bandwagon fallacy of systemic racism: 

 

 

I grew up with a close friend circle of West Indian decent black Americans. Such as described in the video. 

 

Well, the United Nations Human Rights folks are holding hearing today to regarding the George Floyd death, police brutality and systemic racism by whites in the US, should be interesting to hear what they say.

 

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10 hours ago, Justus said:

 

Well, the United Nations Human Rights folks are holding hearing today to regarding the George Floyd death, police brutality and systemic racism by whites in the US, should be interesting to hear what they say.

 

 

So if the UN decides to claim that the US is racist, systemically, does that make it so? Or does proving a claim have anything to do with establishing the credibility of a given claim? 

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/un-human-rights-chief-urges-nations-to-pay-reparations-for-slavery-colonialism/ar-BB15D6WF

While the discussions at the UN are ongoing, the initial statement is the populist one.  Of course the UN has no power, the US pulled out of the human rights committee years ago and they've failed to do anything about the countries that still openly practice slavery.

I'm still stunned by this strange idea that police brutality is supported, allowed or even encouraged.  The actions of the murderous cop have been condemned worldwide, by left and right alike.  The cop was arrested and charged with murder, that is the opposite of this activity being accepted by the system.

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23 hours ago, Wertbag said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/un-human-rights-chief-urges-nations-to-pay-reparations-for-slavery-colonialism/ar-BB15D6WF

While the discussions at the UN are ongoing, the initial statement is the populist one.  Of course the UN has no power, the US pulled out of the human rights committee years ago and they've failed to do anything about the countries that still openly practice slavery.

I'm still stunned by this strange idea that police brutality is supported, allowed or even encouraged.  The actions of the murderous cop have been condemned worldwide, by left and right alike.  The cop was arrested and charged with murder, that is the opposite of this activity being accepted by the system.

This betrays an ignorance of policing culture and police training.  Which is the ROOT of this problem - that combined with racial bias. And I don't think you understand fully the definition of systemic - which is structure that results in issues due to the way it's structured, not a structure that accepts or doesn't accept violations after they've occurred. 

 

To act as if none of us have racial bias, as if racism is only hate, that it can't be unconscious, is ignorant. 

 

I'm a white daughter of parents who instilled in me a fear of black men. It's conditioning. You don't get rid of racial bias just like that, not when you're socially programmed into it. To walk around and claim that human beings don't identify with in their group and that they easily vilify out groups, and that race doesn't play a part in that, in everyday actions, is just stupid. 

 

Personally I do not understand people's claims that they're not racist. It betrays a misunderstanding of the human condition - that we are group oriented, prefer our in group, and easily dehumanize out groups, and unless we make a calculated conscious decision to engage and get to know out groups, we will fear them. Unfortunately that fear can be deadly when you have a firearm in your hands. 

 

And as you pointed out, sometimes it's dominance and malice and outright murder instead of fear. 

 

The in group identification and out group vilification is something that Trump is using, encouraging, and capitalizing on. If there's someone who deserves to lose their current position due to the way they've pitted Americans of one political party, race, creed or non creed against each other, it's DJ Trump. 

 

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15 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

This betrays an ignorance of policing culture and police training.  Which is the ROOT of this problem - that combined with racial bias. And I don't think you understand fully the definition of systemic

I'm not sure your reply was meant for me. My post did not include anything about the systems, bias, race or training, I purely pointed out that people are saying police violence is in some way okay and yet this flies in the face of worldwide condemnation of the murder. There is no one saying that was acceptable, no one saying he shouldn't be charged with murder and no one saying reforms aren't a great idea. 

 

I would agree police training should be better. I just see that training costs money, so cries to defund the police will have the opposite effect that we should be aiming for. 

 

15 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

To act as if none of us have racial bias, as if racism is only hate, that it can't be unconscious, is ignorant

It would be, and I don't believe I've ever said that? I believe bias comes from fear, from what we are taught and from what we experience. I don't think it's something that can be changed because it is human instinct. The way to make people less scared is to remove the issue causing the fear. The fear against black people is based on valid culture and crime statistics. You can't ask people to not fear a valid threat. BLM says the whites are racist for being afraid while not pointing to the cause of the fear.

 

15 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Personally I do not understand people's claims that they're not racist. It betrays a misunderstanding of the human condition - that we are group oriented, prefer our in group, and easily dehumanize out groups

It is not just other groups, as you can see there isn't the same fear to Asian or Indian people but there is the same fear to white gang members, skin heads, punks and those who are a clear threat. 

I would cross the road to avoid a gang member regardless of their skin colour, but if they were black my self preservation would be categorised as racist. 

 

Racism is saying this group is superior while that group is inferior, and in most of the cases we are looking at that isn't the case. The cop who murdered Floyd was a violent sociopath with 18 prior complaints against him. His violence wasn't restricted by race, he was an a-hole to everyone. He would smack a white hobo as quickly as a black one. Definitely power tripping, definitely a major gap that he wasn't fired earlier, definitely an issue the other cops didn't feel able to override a superior officers bad actions. So lots of problems and lots of areas to reform, but racism wasn't the cause in this case, but in the Abbury case it certainly was. 

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2 hours ago, Wertbag said:

I'm not sure your reply was meant for me. My post did not include anything about the systems, bias, race or training, I purely pointed out that people are saying police violence is in some way okay and yet this flies in the face of worldwide condemnation of the murder. There is no one saying that was acceptable, no one saying he shouldn't be charged with murder and no one saying reforms aren't a great idea. 

 

I would agree police training should be better. I just see that training costs money, so cries to defund the police will have the opposite effect that we should be aiming for. 

 

It would be, and I don't believe I've ever said that? I believe bias comes from fear, from what we are taught and from what we experience. I don't think it's something that can be changed because it is human instinct. The way to make people less scared is to remove the issue causing the fear. The fear against black people is based on valid culture and crime statistics. You can't ask people to not fear a valid threat. BLM says the whites are racist for being afraid while not pointing to the cause of the fear.

 

It is not just other groups, as you can see there isn't the same fear to Asian or Indian people but there is the same fear to white gang members, skin heads, punks and those who are a clear threat. 

I would cross the road to avoid a gang member regardless of their skin colour, but if they were black my self preservation would be categorised as racist. 

 

Racism is saying this group is superior while that group is inferior, and in most of the cases we are looking at that isn't the case. The cop who murdered Floyd was a violent sociopath with 18 prior complaints against him. His violence wasn't restricted by race, he was an a-hole to everyone. He would smack a white hobo as quickly as a black one. Definitely power tripping, definitely a major gap that he wasn't fired earlier, definitely an issue the other cops didn't feel able to override a superior officers bad actions. So lots of problems and lots of areas to reform, but racism wasn't the cause in this case, but in the Abbury case it certainly was. 

You can have your opinions and I'll have mine, we can agree to disagree. 

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On 6/17/2020 at 11:41 PM, Wertbag said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/un-human-rights-chief-urges-nations-to-pay-reparations-for-slavery-colonialism/ar-BB15D6WF

While the discussions at the UN are ongoing, the initial statement is the populist one.  Of course the UN has no power, the US pulled out of the human rights committee years ago and they've failed to do anything about the countries that still openly practice slavery.

I'm still stunned by this strange idea that police brutality is supported, allowed or even encouraged.  The actions of the murderous cop have been condemned worldwide, by left and right alike.  The cop was arrested and charged with murder, that is the opposite of this activity being accepted by the system.

"System" was the word used in the last sentence - your choice of wording is confusing. 

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48 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

You can have your opinions and I'll have mine, we can agree to disagree. 

I would think we agree on more than we disagree about. Police reform is a great idea, abuse of power does occur and needs to be crushed, racist people exist, bias exists, black people suffer from higher levels of poverty and crime, drugs are bad, gangs are bad, racist groups like kkk and neo-nazis are evil, the cop who murdered Floyd deserves to be punished as the law says, problems exist and changes need to be made. 

I don't think there is any real debate on all of these points, the disagreement seems to be what level racism is the cause of all the problems and what the solution should be. 

 

Solutions such as defund or abolish the police/prisons seems a bad idea to me, while suggestions like compulsory body cameras cannot get funding. What solutions do you think would get the best results? 

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On 6/12/2020 at 10:31 AM, TruthSeeker0 said:

Asking out of curiosity: how many of the posters here have black or coloured people among their close circle of friends? (Not coworkers etc- people that you would disclose personal issues/problems with) How many of you that do have friends, have had discussions about race or racism? What kind of discussions were they? 

 

This is a very interesting thread. I hope my comments here won't be considered a distraction of any kind. I'm using @TruthSeeker0's post as a springboard to my own thoughts here, but my comments aren't specifically directed at her. I'm equally interested in @Joshpantera's opinion. I'd like to submit the following for consideration.

 

Proposition 1: "Systemic racism" is, on its face, as patently absurd as creationism. I don't consent to take seriously the notion that there exists a statistically significant bias against blacks with regards to fatal police shootings. The hypothesis that Jesus created the universe in seven days and specially created humans in their current form is testable, and it has been falsified. The claim that American police exhibit a bias to fatally shoot unarmed people of African descent at a higher rate than they shoot Caucasians is likewise a testable hypothesis, and it has been found likewise wanting. If one wishes, we can talk about first world problems like generic humiliation of black people by the police, e.g. "driving while black." As someone who believes in the equal dignity of all men, these are things I don't approve of. Having been an older teenager with vaguely Eastern features during 9/11, I have personally experienced such humiliation. But these are first world problems, since a black person who is wrongly pulled over by the police suffers nothing more than a speeding ticket, and since an Indian who is subjected to unwarranted searches at airports in the year 2002 merely suffers unwanted groping. Such a thing is humiliating. It isn't deadly. We, as freethinking ex-Christians who (hopefully) reject authoritarian ideologies, should not waste our time even entertaining the notion of systemic racism in police shootings anymore than we should spend time debating creationists. The matter has been researched, and the proposed statistical effect turns out to not exist. If you believe in the BLM notion of systemic racism, you are subscribing to a religious ideology. As is your right. But I won't take it seriously or engage you in discussion on this topic, and I certainly won't "see your oppression," because I deny that you are being oppressed. If you want me to engage you as a fellow human being of equal standing I am eager to do so, and I don't care what your skin color is. I am "colorblind," so to speak. If you find this unacceptable then feel free to worship Jesus, and leave me out of it. Those who believe in systemic racism in police shootings should be treated as creation "scientists," and should be left preaching to an empty room.

 

Proposition 2: The terms "colored people" and "people of color" are malicious obfuscations (don't take this personally @TruthSeeker0, this term is quite ubiquitous and I am not implying any guilt on your part). What is a person of color other than a non-European? If a PoC is indeed simply a non-European, then it groups together people who have nothing in common. I am an Indian. By the "non-European" definition of PoC, I am a PoC. So is a Mexican. I have nothing in common with a Mexican. Mexicans are Catholics. I am an idol-worshiper who detests Jesus of Nazareth. Mexicans eat meat. I don't eat meat. Mexicans drink Corona. I drink Kingfisher. I like Mexican culture and think it has many positive traits. But commonalities? I don't see any. So why are we both "people of color?" The answer, very obviously, is that it is a contrived interest group designed to create a coalition of non-Europeans who can engage in political battle against Europeans. With the death of George Floyd, the interest group has utterly fractured.  Every publicly-owned company under the sun has now given obeisance to Americans of African descent, and have been very deliberate in excluding so-called NBPoC (non-black people of color). Case in point: Uber Eats has begun illegal racial discrimination by offering free delivery from black-owned restaurants. Not PoC-owned restaurants. Only black-owned. Indian-owned restaurants must still charge delivery fees. Any pretense that the racialist movement consisted of a coalition of non-Europeans has now been abandoned.

 

Aside: would humbly request that my fellow ex-C posters never refer to me as a "person of color." From an ethnic standpoint I have absolutely nothing in common with Mexicans, South Americans, Africans, Arabs, Chinese, Southeast Asians, or any ethnic group other than Indians. Feel free to refer to me as "the Indian poster" or "that Indian guy." If you wish to simply address me as "hey Indian," without even using my user name, I would find this acceptable too. I also respond to "idol-worshiper." But I am not a person of color, because I don't grant the premise that such a classification exists in any meaningful sense.

 

Proposition 3: Admonitions to engage in discussions about race are inherently dishonest. Here I have to again reiterate that this is in no way a criticism of you, @TruthSeeker0, or any expression of animosity towards you. You merely happened to echo a very common sentiment about which I have many opinions, and I don't want you to interpret this post as a direct response to you personally. A lot of people - especially white liberals - are currently calling for "discussions about race or racism." But clearly, there is a fair number of implied constraints on such discussions. What if, in the course of such discussion, I wanted to explore the belief that people of African descent are less intelligent or more violent than non-Africans? (Note: I don't personally hold such beliefs, since the scientific arguments supporting them are spurious at best. The scientific case for African inferiority is about as vacuous as the case for creationism.) Or, what if I wanted to express my belief that I simply don't like the way Africans look, due to some personal aesthetic bias? Any honest person must admit that when they are calling for discussions about race, these topics are implicitly prohibited. So such people do not really want to have a discussion about race. Much like a Christian pastor, they want to engage in a discourse that results in some specific conclusion. Anyone who is honest about this should be calling for a sermon, not a "discussion." Again: as an ex-Christian I have heard enough sermons to last the remainder of my lifetime, and I will suffer not one more. I will not be participating in your discussion on race or racism.

 

Have a good evening everyone. There is no hell, and Jesus is not a real god. Stay safe from the woke mob.

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12 hours ago, Wertbag said:

I would think we agree on more than we disagree about. Police reform is a great idea, abuse of power does occur and needs to be crushed, racist people exist, bias exists, black people suffer from higher levels of poverty and crime, drugs are bad, gangs are bad, racist groups like kkk and neo-nazis are evil, the cop who murdered Floyd deserves to be punished as the law says, problems exist and changes need to be made. 

I don't think there is any real debate on all of these points, the disagreement seems to be what level racism is the cause of all the problems and what the solution should be. 

 

Solutions such as defund or abolish the police/prisons seems a bad idea to me, while suggestions like compulsory body cameras cannot get funding. What solutions do you think would get the best results? 

No, I'm pretty sure we would disagree on whether oppression of minorities exists today - you make it plain as day you think the issue is a handful of bad cops. You don't agree that systemic racism exists. I'm not getting involved in that debate. Maybe go watch 13th on Netflix. I stand by my position that white people do not have the right to claim that they know what the minority experience is or isn't. Just like men do not have the right to claim that they know what it is a woman does or does not experience. 

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