Jump to content

Hope our American friends are safe


Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, Bhim said:

 

This is a very interesting thread. I hope my comments here won't be considered a distraction of any kind. I'm using @TruthSeeker0's post as a springboard to my own thoughts here, but my comments aren't specifically directed at her. I'm equally interested in @Joshpantera's opinion. I'd like to submit the following for consideration.

 

Proposition 1: "Systemic racism" is, on its face, as patently absurd as creationism. I don't consent to take seriously the notion that there exists a statistically significant bias against blacks with regards to fatal police shootings. The hypothesis that Jesus created the universe in seven days and specially created humans in their current form is testable, and it has been falsified. The claim that American police exhibit a bias to fatally shoot unarmed people of African descent at a higher rate than they shoot Caucasians is likewise a testable hypothesis, and it has been found likewise wanting. If one wishes, we can talk about first world problems like generic humiliation of black people by the police, e.g. "driving while black." As someone who believes in the equal dignity of all men, these are things I don't approve of. Having been an older teenager with vaguely Eastern features during 9/11, I have personally experienced such humiliation. But these are first world problems, since a black person who is wrongly pulled over by the police suffers nothing more than a speeding ticket, and since an Indian who is subjected to unwarranted searches at airports in the year 2002 merely suffers unwanted groping. Such a thing is humiliating. It isn't deadly. We, as freethinking ex-Christians who (hopefully) reject authoritarian ideologies, should not waste our time even entertaining the notion of systemic racism in police shootings anymore than we should spend time debating creationists. The matter has been researched, and the proposed statistical effect turns out to not exist. If you believe in the BLM notion of systemic racism, you are subscribing to a religious ideology. As is your right. But I won't take it seriously or engage you in discussion on this topic, and I certainly won't "see your oppression," because I deny that you are being oppressed. If you want me to engage you as a fellow human being of equal standing I am eager to do so, and I don't care what your skin color is. I am "colorblind," so to speak. If you find this unacceptable then feel free to worship Jesus, and leave me out of it. Those who believe in systemic racism in police shootings should be treated as creation "scientists," and should be left preaching to an empty room.

 

Proposition 2: The terms "colored people" and "people of color" are malicious obfuscations (don't take this personally @TruthSeeker0, this term is quite ubiquitous and I am not implying any guilt on your part). What is a person of color other than a non-European? If a PoC is indeed simply a non-European, then it groups together people who have nothing in common. I am an Indian. By the "non-European" definition of PoC, I am a PoC. So is a Mexican. I have nothing in common with a Mexican. Mexicans are Catholics. I am an idol-worshiper who detests Jesus of Nazareth. Mexicans eat meat. I don't eat meat. Mexicans drink Corona. I drink Kingfisher. I like Mexican culture and think it has many positive traits. But commonalities? I don't see any. So why are we both "people of color?" The answer, very obviously, is that it is a contrived interest group designed to create a coalition of non-Europeans who can engage in political battle against Europeans. With the death of George Floyd, the interest group has utterly fractured.  Every publicly-owned company under the sun has now given obeisance to Americans of African descent, and have been very deliberate in excluding so-called NBPoC (non-black people of color). Case in point: Uber Eats has begun illegal racial discrimination by offering free delivery from black-owned restaurants. Not PoC-owned restaurants. Only black-owned. Indian-owned restaurants must still charge delivery fees. Any pretense that the racialist movement consisted of a coalition of non-Europeans has now been abandoned.

 

Aside: would humbly request that my fellow ex-C posters never refer to me as a "person of color." From an ethnic standpoint I have absolutely nothing in common with Mexicans, South Americans, Africans, Arabs, Chinese, Southeast Asians, or any ethnic group other than Indians. Feel free to refer to me as "the Indian poster" or "that Indian guy." If you wish to simply address me as "hey Indian," without even using my user name, I would find this acceptable too. I also respond to "idol-worshiper." But I am not a person of color, because I don't grant the premise that such a classification exists in any meaningful sense.

 

Proposition 3: Admonitions to engage in discussions about race are inherently dishonest. Here I have to again reiterate that this is in no way a criticism of you, @TruthSeeker0, or any expression of animosity towards you. You merely happened to echo a very common sentiment about which I have many opinions, and I don't want you to interpret this post as a direct response to you personally. A lot of people - especially white liberals - are currently calling for "discussions about race or racism." But clearly, there is a fair number of implied constraints on such discussions. What if, in the course of such discussion, I wanted to explore the belief that people of African descent are less intelligent or more violent than non-Africans? (Note: I don't personally hold such beliefs, since the scientific arguments supporting them are spurious at best. The scientific case for African inferiority is about as vacuous as the case for creationism.) Or, what if I wanted to express my belief that I simply don't like the way Africans look, due to some personal aesthetic bias? Any honest person must admit that when they are calling for discussions about race, these topics are implicitly prohibited. So such people do not really want to have a discussion about race. Much like a Christian pastor, they want to engage in a discourse that results in some specific conclusion. Anyone who is honest about this should be calling for a sermon, not a "discussion." Again: as an ex-Christian I have heard enough sermons to last the remainder of my lifetime, and I will suffer not one more. I will not be participating in your discussion on race or racism.

 

Have a good evening everyone. There is no hell, and Jesus is not a real god. Stay safe from the woke mob.

I didn't read your post besides bits and peices - I've read enough to know we disagree on racial issues. Don't refer to people who disagree with you as dishonest - it adds nothing productive to the discussion. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 198
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I don't think anyone is saying murder is okay, the argument seems to be whether the issue is racism (would an overly aggressive cop have killed the criminal regardless of his skin colour?  Did he do h

If this past year has taught me anything, it's that staying sober isn't worth it. 

Two videos. First Candace Owens on the criminal record and autopsy report of George Floyd:      Everyone pretty much agrees that the cops have no right to kill people like tha

Posted Images

1 hour ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I didn't read your post besides bits and peices - I've read enough to know we disagree on racial issues. Don't refer to people who disagree with you as dishonest - it adds nothing productive to the discussion. 

 

Since you only read bits and pieces, I should highlight that I qualified this proposition in stating that I am not referring to you personally as dishonest. You are stating something that the vast majority of Americans also assent to, and I think the claim generally is dishonest. But nothing I've written above is directed at you.

 

I'm hoping for an interesting discussion on all this.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I stand by my position that white people do not have the right to claim that they know what the minority experience is or isn't. Just like men do not have the right to claim that they know what it is a woman does or does not experience. 

 

I have what I think are two important questions.

 

1. What is a "minority" in the context of this post?

 

2. If men can't know female experiences, then how do male novelists write fiction that contains female characters?

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

 

So if God created all men from one male and female then why does Ben so easily distinguish between the white man and the black man if racism isn't systemic. 

  • Confused 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

The hypothesis that Jesus created the universe in seven days and specially created humans in their current form is testable, and it has been falsified.

 

So how did you measure the length of a day?  

 

Since cell fusion does not occur except when the gametes are in-kind and not between any species then genetics pretty much validates that the male and female are representative of the form of the first man; wouldn't you think, the ability to communicate with the spoken word should say tons in itself but not everyone can see the light when they speak. 

  • Confused 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Justus said:

 

So how did you measure the length of a day?  

 

Since cell fusion does not occur except when the gametes are in-kind and not between any species then genetics pretty much validates that the male and female are representative of the form of the first man; wouldn't you think, the ability to communicate with the spoken word should say tons in itself but not everyone can see the light when they speak. 

 

Hi @Justus. That's me you're quoting. Some forum-snafu must have attributed it to @TruthSeeker0. So, you may have not noticed but I stated a priori that I don't think criticisms of evolutionary theory are worth even discussing. I might be willing to talk very specifically about the measurement of a "day," if you have a sufficient background in the mathematical formulation of special relativity (i.e. you're not just drawing on casual knowledge gleaned from taking "general physics for biology majors" in college). If you have such a background, feel free to make a new thread and tag me. And if not...well, then there's not enough common background for us to talk about what the meaning of a day is.

 

But more importantly, let me get this straight. You're a Christian, you believe in systemic racism, and you take issue with Ben Shapiro's analysis of racial disparities. I'm an ex-Christian, I'm a fan of traditional conservative commentator Ben Shapiro, I don't believe in systemic racism, and I hate Jesus.

 

Wow...Donald Trump has turned the world upside down in a way that the gospel of Jesus never could...

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The question that I want to hear answered from everyone's perspective is what is the solution? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Bhim said:

I might be willing to talk very specifically about the measurement of a "day," if you have a sufficient background in the mathematical formulation of special relativity (i.e. you're not just drawing on casual knowledge gleaned from taking "general physics for biology majors" in college).

Is that you Jesus?  I know you thought they would have voted for the Barnabas fellow and they probably would have if they knew you meant you would be coming back in spirit.  I can only image from the jibberish in your comment above that they must have really beat the hell out of you or this isn't you.  In which case the measure of a day is the same as the measure of a year which really doesn't have anything to do with biology.  

4 hours ago, Bhim said:

But more importantly, let me get this straight.

I am not sure if you are speaking to me or talking to yourself.

4 hours ago, Bhim said:

You're a Christian,

No, I am an American who believes all men are created equal, male and female.   

4 hours ago, Bhim said:

I'm a fan of traditional conservative commentator Ben Shapiro, I don't believe in systemic racism,

I am sure you are a big fan of Ben, so do you know what Ben's position is regarding  the prosecution of the Police Officer accused of 2nd degree murder and 2nd degree manslaughter in the death of George Floyd?  I am sure it will align with the narrative, I am sure it will.

4 hours ago, Bhim said:

and I hate Jesus.

So you hate imaginary things, that certainly fits the narrative. 

 

:grin:

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Justus said:

Is that you Jesus?  I know you thought they would have voted for the Barnabas fellow and they probably would have if they knew you meant you would be coming back in spirit.  I can only image from the jibberish in your comment above that they must have really beat the hell out of you or this isn't you.  In which case the measure of a day is the same as the measure of a year which really doesn't have anything to do with biology.  

I am not sure if you are speaking to me or talking to yourself.

No, I am an American who believes all men are created equal, male and female.   

I am sure you are a big fan of Ben, so do you know what Ben's position is regarding  the prosecution of the Police Officer accused of 2nd degree murder and 2nd degree manslaughter in the death of George Floyd?  I am sure it will align with the narrative, I am sure it will.

So you hate imaginary things, that certainly fits the narrative. 

 

:grin:

 

Um, I have no idea what any of these words mean. Please adhere to a baseline level of articulation in the future.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Wertbag said:

The question that I want to hear answered from everyone's perspective is what is the solution? 

 

Well, that's just it. I don't believe that the problem exists. Asking me what is my solution to systemic racism is like asking me when I stopped beating my wife, i.e. I don't accept the premise of the question.

 

I think we need to have a discussion about the existence of systemic racism. I deny that there is any detectable degree of anti-black racism in America at a level that would affect lives or livelihoods. I can't comment on other countries.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bhim said:

I don't believe that the problem exists

The problems being protested about are much wider ranging. What is the solution to blacks being over represented in crime, prison and police interactions? What is the solution to the obvious political divide this highlights? What is the solution to the belief a large portion of the population holds that racism is the cause of education, pay, opportunity and social disparity? 

Basically is there anyway to stop protests and riots in a way that will actually make the majority happy? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wertbag said:

The problems being protested about are much wider ranging. What is the solution to blacks being over represented in crime, prison and police interactions? What is the solution to the obvious political divide this highlights? What is the solution to the belief a large portion of the population holds that racism is the cause of education, pay, opportunity and social disparity? 

Basically is there anyway to stop protests and riots in a way that will actually make the majority happy? 

 

You've asked some very important questions, but more important are the logical premises embedded in your comments.

 

Regarding blacks being over-represented in crime. My first inclination is to say "stop committing crimes." Some might respond with the accusation that the justice system is biased against blacks. I'm actually more than willing to talk about this. I don't care about racial disparities, but I strongly believe that courts should be strongly biased against accusers as opposed to the accused, i.e. it should be very difficult to convict someone of a crime. The American left wants to let criminals out of prison as a recompense for perceived racial bias in the justice system. Such a course of action makes no sense to me. If the courts are biased against any particular group (racially-defined or otherwise), potential solutions should involve funding public defenders at the same level that we fund district attorneys, imposing harsher evidentiary standards, and criminally charging the prosecutors who pursue charges against defendants who are obviously innocent. I would be willing to support all of these solutions, so long as they make no reference to race, ethnicity, or skin color. I only demand that any solution to a putative problem in the criminal justice system be colorblind. I will accept no solution that favors black people over non-blacks.

 

You asked "What is the solution to the obvious political divide this highlights? What is the solution to the belief a large portion of the population holds that racism is the cause of education, pay, opportunity and social disparity? Basically is there anyway to stop protests and riots in a way that will actually make the majority happy?"

 

Correct me if I'm misreading you, but it sounds like you recognize that the problem isn't racism, but a perception of racism. You are stating a belief on the part of some subset of black people that they have been treated unfairly, and that they deserve some restitution on that basis. My argument is that there is no factual grounds for such claims of restitution. No European-American living today owes a black person anything whatsoever on the basis of historical injustices. In the grand tale of history, various empires have subjugated and oppressed various ethnic groups and nation states. My grandfathers were unwilling subjects of King George  VI, whose daughter currently sits the British throne. We got over it, and most of us aren't asking the Queen to return our jewels. My proposed solution is to treat African Americans like fellow humans and like adults.

 

And in that spirit, to any African-American reading my post who believes he is owed some compensation for prior racist behavior emanating from American culture, my message is as follows: I don't care about your grievances and you will get nothing from me. I am an Indian. My ancestors didn't own your ancestors. And even if they did, I wouldn't take an iota of responsibility for their actions because I wasn't alive at the time. I feel no empathy for you whatsoever, because I deny that you are experiencing any material suffering. I do not curse the British for treating my grandfathers (i.e. my father's and mother's fathers, whom I knew personally) like second class citizens. Stop whining like spoiled children about the fact that your ancestors were slaves. Get over it. You have never personally been slaves and so I don't recognize your grievance. You haven't the faintest notion concerning the horror of human slavery. Some of you might be old enough to remember the humiliation of Jim Crow. My grandfathers are old enough to remember the humiliation of subjugation to the British. In fact one of my grandfathers moved to the United States in the early 60s and experienced Jim Crow in the American South. Yet I am not asking to be compensated on behalf of someone else's grievance, and thus I don't recognize your grievance. To me, you are a human being of equal standing with myself. As such, do not expect me to bow to you like an evangelical Christian, and wash your feet as Jesus did to his disciples. Jesus is the last person I would chose to be my example.

 

This response, @Wertbag, is how I would oppose the riots. The riots are based on false grievances, and I refuse to recognize them. Systemic racism is a delusion. I believe it is very important that we not take charges of systemic racism seriously. The people who are engaging in riots are grown adults with the same mental faculties as any other adult. The only proper response is to convict the rioters (who are drawn from multiple races, by the way) of the appropriate crimes and to put them in prison for the maximum allowable sentence, and then to punish them with a difficult reentry to society upon completion of that sentence. Every rioter should be condemned to check a box on all future job applications, indicating that he is a convicted criminal. Anyone who willfully engaged in a riot should have their life ruined, and should never be forgiven for such horrible behavior.

 

I am not a Christian. I don't believe in grace.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Super Moderator
On 6/19/2020 at 7:38 PM, Wertbag said:

black people suffer from higher levels of poverty and crime,

Why do you think that is?  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Super Moderator
13 hours ago, Justus said:

No, I am an American who believes all men are created equal, male and female. 

Umm...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why commit crimes then? As if that's the root problem, blacks committing more crime. Are you aware that black people are targeted for the most minor offences by police, charged, and end up in jail or killed at a disproportionate rate in comparison to whites?  Do you really think race didn't play a part in a black man being killed over suspicions of a counterfeit bill? Are you aware that white people get away with a lot of shit in terms of criminality simply because there's racial bias in policing? You keep speaking as if the problem is all with black crime. People go and educate yourselves on how the US justice system, after slavery was abolished, legalized the slave labour of black inmates for a long time. Go and research the *incentive* to keep these prisons operating in the current day context, and exactly who benefits from this. 

It's as if you want to argue that people who were oppressed and enslaved and dehumanized for hundreds of years, and who continue to be oppressed and dehumanized systematically through racial profiling, somehow have an equal chance out of the gates and the onus is all on them. 

 

By "you" I refer to the people in this thread who want to cherry pick their evidence - as if a couple well off black folks are representative of all blacks. 

 

The issue by and large is that Americans are not educated about their own history, and they have not come to terms and reconciled with the legacy of slavery and the current day ramifications. I say this as someone who went through the Canadian education system and can say the same thing for my country - we learned that rich white men came up with all the inventions, "founded" and "discovered" this country, were to be applauded for what we have today. That's such a half assed approach to history. I didn't learn much of anything until I started studying university level history.

 

When you continue to deny the pain of racialized communities, you'll get nowhere. 

 

I'm done here. Have a good day folks.  

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

 Are you aware that black people are targeted for the most minor offences by police, charged, and end up in jail or killed at a disproportionate rate in comparison to whites?

 

What is the basis of this claim? You're aware that from a statistical standpoint, a disproportionate incarceration rate between different racial groups is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to infer intentional racial bias, right? On a related note, are you aware that the incarceration rate for blacks is precipitously dropping at over twice the rate as it is for whites?

Quote

From 2008 to 2018, the imprisonment rate dropped 28% among blacks, 21% among Hispanics, and 13% among whites. (Source: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p18.pdf)

 

4 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Do you really think race didn't play a part in a black man being killed over suspicions of a counterfeit bill?

 

Correct. I really think that race played no role whatsoever. Convince me I'm wrong, or I'll continue expressing this opinion to anyone I meet who is willing to listen (and who won't seek the termination from my employment on the basis of my politics). I'm willing to respectfully converse for as long as you are, and to change my mind if presented with a convincing argument.

 

4 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Are you aware that white people get away with a lot of shit in terms of criminality simply because there's racial bias in policing?

 

I've seen no evidence presented in the course of this discussion that supports this claim. Again, feel free to convince me. Also, I'd appreciate a more specific discussion topic than "a lot of shit in terms of criminality." I don't know what that is. Public defecation?

 

4 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

People go and educate yourselves on how the US justice system, after slavery was abolished, legalized the slave labour of black inmates for a long time. Go and research the *incentive* to keep these prisons operating in the current day context, and exactly who benefits from this. 

 

Are you suggesting that black prisoners are used for prison labor at a higher rate than other prisoners of similar economic standing? Because otherwise, the chain of logic seems to go something like this:

  1. A disproportionate number of prisoners are black
  2. Prison laborers are non-randomly sampled from the population of all prisoners, weighted by economic status (because rich prisoners don't need to work)
  3. A disproportionate number of prison laborers are black
  4. Therefore the system of prison labor exhibits racial bias

The conclusion in point 4 is illogical. If you replaced point 2 with "weighted by race," then you'd have a case. Again, evidence?

 

4 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

It's as if you want to argue that people who were oppressed and enslaved and dehumanized for hundreds of years, and who continue to be oppressed and dehumanized systematically through racial profiling, somehow have an equal chance out of the gates and the onus is all on them.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I want to argue. I am "oppressed and dehumanized systematically through racial profiling" every time I go to an airport. I don't have an equal chance out of the gates because my parents, being immigrants from India, don't have any accumulated generational wealth. Do you see me whining about white people? I judge all people as equals. I don't give a rat's hair about oppression of blacks because said oppression isn't happening. I don't care about any race's oppression.

 

4 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

The issue by and large is that Americans are not educated about their own history, and they have not come to terms and reconciled with the legacy of slavery and the current day ramifications. I say this as someone who went through the Canadian education system and can say the same thing for my country - we learned that rich white men came up with all the inventions, "founded" and "discovered" this country, were to be applauded for what we have today. That's such a half assed approach to history. I didn't learn much of anything until I started studying university level history.

 

I'm glad you learned about history. That's an important topic, to be sure. But what did you learn about statistics? Because that's the domain in which you'll need to operate if you want to change my mind.

 

4 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

When you continue to deny the pain of racialized communities, you'll get nowhere. 

 

I don't want to go anywhere, because I don't want to upset the status quo. The status quo is working pretty well for me, save for the riots.

 

(Please don't take the bait and say that the status quo is working for me because of my white privilege)

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Why do you think that is?

Poverty and crime are heavily linked, but the causes are wide ranging.  In large part it is cultural; with tall poppy syndrome, with thug life culture revered, with education looked down upon, with broken homes being common, drugs and gangs being seen in a positive light.  If your culture teaches you that constant swearing, aggression and revenge are the things that are required to be a respected man, then that aggressive attitude is what you bring into your interactions with the world.  If you swear at and threaten cops, who are already nervous and armed, then you are already escalating a dangerous situation.

 

Some black commentators have pointed out how they were taught to be racially paranoid, having been told the white man hates you, he's out to stop you, he is your enemy and the reason for your problems.  However when they get out of the black community, either to work or university, they find the white man couldn't care less and the racism they were expecting doesn't materialise.  You then get people looking for racism where it doesn't exist, such as being pulled over for an issue with your car being seen as caused by skin colour and not cos your light didn't work.  Or someone who doesn't get a job instantly jumping to the conclusion that it was because of their skin colour, rather than the other person interviewed better.  Its not to say racism is never the case, but it makes the anecdotal stories of racism hard to separate true from perceived.

 

We can really see the cultural difference when you look at the Asian and Indian communities who also come from poor backgrounds, but have a society level belief that education is what gains respect, that achievement in your career gets respect, and that a civil discourse with the world makes everything better.  You then see those communities with high levels of education, a great deal of success and upwards economic mobility.  If people were being kept down by the white man, then Asians and Indians should show that same racism, but instead we find they are actually out performing white people in these metrics.  Is this Asian privilege in a "white supremacist" society?

It is really this comparison that makes me fail to see the systemic racism.  The racism claimed doesn't appear to effect all minorities equally, which flies in the face of whites holding others down.  The white majority are not even the highest earning racial segment of society.

 

Take a look at American Chinese for a good example.  Many came to America as slaves and were given no legal protection.  They were not considered citizens, could not marry white people, and died from harsh working conditions, disease and the opium that was pushed on them by the English.  They were paid one third that of white people and not allowed to own property.  The same Jim Crow laws that applied to blacks, also suppressed the Chinese rights and left them struggling to get by.  Jump forward to modern day and what do we find? 

"Overall, as a demographic group, Chinese Americans have a higher educational attainment, have a higher percentage of people working in select white collar and professional occupations, and earn higher median household incomes when compared to other demographic groups in the United States. Educational achievements of Chinese in the United States are one of the highest among Asian Americans and also among all ethnic groups in the United States. Chinese Americans often have some of the highest averages in tests such as SAT, ACT, GRE etc. in the United States."

Not only do they have great results in education and employment but they have better results than the white majority that some people are saying are holding minorities down.  So it is not racism or historical racism but somehow purely anti-black sentiment?

 

When we look at violence statistics you find a tiny handful of unarmed black men being shot (I think it was said 9 in the last year) and ~200 armed ones, and of those drugs and aggression played a part in making those situations worse.  At the same time you have black on black murders in many thousands, ten times higher than anything the police do.  This doesn't excuse police brutality and reform should absolutely happen, but if you are looking for a huge glaring problem then black communities need to look internally at breaking the negative cycles.  So much is being said about external factors, but very little said about the internal ones.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wertbag said:

Some black commentators have pointed out how they were taught to be racially paranoid, having been told the white man hates you, he's out to stop you, he is your enemy and the reason for your problems.  However when they get out of the black community, either to work or university, they find the white man couldn't care less and the racism they were expecting doesn't materialise.  You then get people looking for racism where it doesn't exist, such as being pulled over for an issue with your car being seen as caused by skin colour and not cos your light didn't work.  Or someone who doesn't get a job instantly jumping to the conclusion that it was because of their skin colour, rather than the other person interviewed better.  Its not to say racism is never the case, but it makes the anecdotal stories of racism hard to separate true from perceived.

 

This is my experience too. I'm of course speaking from the white perspective, since as of 2020 the woke left considers me white. :)

 

I've interacted with a few blacks throughout my professional career. Their race is never an issue. In fact I currently work with a black person (an immigrant from Africa, so not an American black). We talk about a fair number of social issues, and not so strangely, race doesn't come up. Perhaps this is because we treat each other like humans instead of like members of racial groups.

 

1 hour ago, Wertbag said:

 

We can really see the cultural difference when you look at the Asian and Indian communities who also come from poor backgrounds, but have a society level belief that education is what gains respect, that achievement in your career gets respect, and that a civil discourse with the world makes everything better.  You then see those communities with high levels of education, a great deal of success and upwards economic mobility.  If people were being kept down by the white man, then Asians and Indians should show that same racism, but instead we find they are actually out performing white people in these metrics.  Is this Asian privilege in a "white supremacist" society?

It is really this comparison that makes me fail to see the systemic racism.  The racism claimed doesn't appear to effect all minorities equally, which flies in the face of whites holding others down.  The white majority are not even the highest earning racial segment of society.

 

This is brought up frequently in conservative circles in America. My liberal friends and coworkers have unsatisfying and outright ridiculous responses to these challenges to the myth of systemic racism. I once mentioned to a white coworker that I've never had a police interaction that I can definitively classify as racist. His response was "well, studies have shown that there is a specific prejudice against the 'black voice'." Mind you, this is a person with a graduate degree in statistics who is an expert in his field. I have been unable to find published research justifying his claim. In order to believe him, one would have to accept that I, who grew up in an immigrant household with parents who sound like the Dell tech support rep who helps you set up your computer somehow speak English with a more passable American accent than a black person whose family has been in America for multiple centuries.

 

Now, here's the interesting part. I have an Indian friend who - a couple years ago during a political conversation - said to me "when a police officer pulls me over, I am afraid for my life." Now this person is an American educated physician who came to the United States during his high school years, and who lives in the suburbs with his wife and kids, and who as a child had to escape from Bangladesh to India when the Bangladeshi government holocausted its Hindu population back in the 1980s (oh yes, that's another case of persecution that we Hindus don't whine about). I asked him what racism he has experienced in the United States. The sole example he could recall was an anecdote from high school when he worked at McDonald's, in which a white person was hired after him but promoted for him. So again, we're dealing with first world racism...

 

Why am I bringing this up? I am doing so to point out the contradictory narratives. On the one hand, a woke white person is telling me that "systemic racism is only for blacks." Black people count as a victim group for the purposes of this narrative, but I as an Indian and a Hindu do not. Police brutality only affects blacks, not Indian Hindus. On the other hand, we have an Indian Hindu - who has experienced actual religious oppression in his life - who has latched on to the police brutality narrative. I would predict from first principles that if my Indian friend met my white coworker, the white guy would feign empathy for my Indian friend's fear of the police.

 

All of this should tell us that "systemic racism" is a scam. We are all being played here, and I don't even think that those who are scamming us know what their end goal is.

 

1 hour ago, Wertbag said:

When we look at violence statistics you find a tiny handful of unarmed black men being shot (I think it was said 9 in the last year) and ~200 armed ones, and of those drugs and aggression played a part in making those situations worse.  At the same time you have black on black murders in many thousands, ten times higher than anything the police do.  This doesn't excuse police brutality and reform should absolutely happen, but if you are looking for a huge glaring problem then black communities need to look internally at breaking the negative cycles.  So much is being said about external factors, but very little said about the internal ones.

 

The figure of 9 deaths of unarmed blacks by police officers in 2019 comes from the Washington Post database on police shootings. It was cited in an op-ed by secular conservative Heather Mac Donald in the Wall Street Journal earlier this month. The database is regularly updated as data is collected. Last I checked the figure was up to 15. But what's interesting here is that even in the case of the updated data, the disparity of unarmed black deaths to unarmed white deaths has remained about the same. Relative to the amount of crime committed by blacks, unarmed blacks (presumably the ones who don't deserve to be shot) are shot at a lower rate than unarmed whites. There is a racial bias, and it favors blacks.

 

Personally, I don't want to talk about race. I don't want to draw any conclusions based on the fact that blacks commit more crimes than whites. I don't judge any individual black person based on aggregate behavior, and since race is largely a social construct imposed on us by the Biblical creation myth (the belief that there are three basic races which stem from Noah's three sons), I don't think there's much interesting information to be gleaned here. I am an integrationist. I don't believe that the "black community" should exist. I think blacks and whites should move into the same neighborhoods, and mingle to the point where cultural distinctions don't exist anymore.

 

But if you're going to claim that you want an "honest" discussion about race, it has to be truly honest. You need to address the issue of the disparity in bad behavior between blacks and whites. You need to address the fact that whites are disproportionately more likely to be shot by black criminals than by white criminals. Again, I am not seeking this discussion, because I don't believe that skin color is a meaningful classification. But if you want an honest discussion about race, I refuse to have it with someone who isn't willing to begin by addressing these issues.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Super Moderator
15 hours ago, Wertbag said:

Poverty and crime are heavily linked, but the causes are wide ranging.  In large part it is cultural; with tall poppy syndrome, with thug life culture revered, with education looked down upon, with broken homes being common, drugs and gangs being seen in a positive light.  If your culture teaches you that constant swearing, aggression and revenge are the things that are required to be a respected man, then that aggressive attitude is what you bring into your interactions with the world.  If you swear at and threaten cops, who are already nervous and armed, then you are already escalating a dangerous situation.

Your argument here seems to be that, by and large, black people aren't as well-behaved as other races.  That their oppression is self-taught.  And that they should just "get over it" like the Chinese did.  Am I understanding you?

Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Your argument here seems to be that, by and large, black people aren't as well-behaved as other races.  That their oppression is self-taught.  And that they should just "get over it" like the Chinese did.  Am I understanding you?

Sigh, and that's why you don't take complex discussions and attempt to bludgeon them into a two sentence summary. 

 

"Black people aren't as well behaved" - what I've said shouldn't be controversial. Can we agree drugs are bad? Can we agree gangs are bad? Can we agree that these things are the likely cause of the high number of black on black murders? Can we agree thug life culture is negative? Can we agree that having an anti-education lean is a bad thing? 

No one is saying all blacks or even most of them, but we are saying there is enough young men being influenced by these negative things and are having bad results. These are areas we can actively improve with many programs already working on them. Real positive change can be made by these groups, if they can get resources and funding. 

 

"Their oppression is self taught", again not all or even most, but racism can go both ways and there are black commentators talking about being taught racism from their family. Then you have crazy sjw types who can do more harm to productive discussions by trying to claim anything and everything is racism. You can get the boy who cried wolf type frustration. 

 

"Just "get over it" like the Chinese" - using quote marks makes it sound like "get over it" is a quote, but that was never said. The Chinese is just an example of a minority group, in the US for a long time, severely treated and suffering from direct systemic racism. They came from a horrific background to being one of the most successful groups now. Sure its not an exact mirror image of the black history, but the parallels are many with very different outcomes. Their success should be celebrated and whatever they are doing is something we should look to replicate. 

So the obvious question is why the difference? Not only to advance but to surpass the white men. Why did racism not hold them back? Why didn't it hold back the west Indians, Asians or Indians but is claimed to have held back the blacks? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Wertbag said:

Sigh, and that's why you don't take complex discussions and attempt to bludgeon them into a two sentence summary. 

 

I'd tend to give @TheRedneckProfessor the benefit of the doubt, here. Perhaps he was simply trying to clarify your argument by restating it to you in his own words, to avoid cutting down a strawman.

 

I can't speak for him, but I more or less agree with your opinion, and would say that Prof's summary reflects my views. With the important caveat that "bad behavior" is being viewed through the lens of arrest and conviction rates, so we would have to somehow control for bias there.

 

I'm a strong proponent of "Just get over it." I'd like to hear some counterarguments which don't appeal to my sense of compassion

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Super Moderator
41 minutes ago, Bhim said:

I'd tend to give @TheRedneckProfessor the benefit of the doubt, here. Perhaps he was simply trying to clarify your argument by restating it to you in his own words, to avoid cutting down a strawman.

Thank you.  That was my intent.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Super Moderator
50 minutes ago, Wertbag said:

Sigh

We can agree that drugs, such as opium, are bad.  We can also agree that gangs, such as The Triads, are bad.  What we obviously will not agree on is that the thug mentality is limited exclusively to the Black Community.  I'm sure you will say that more young black men are involved than are young Asians; and perhaps you're right.  But, in my area, more young white men are involved in the klan than Hispanics are in MS-13.  Yet there is a marked difference in the way cops make arrests.  There is a marked difference in employment opportunities between the two.  There is a marked difference in accessibility to healthcare.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Super Moderator
1 hour ago, Wertbag said:

Sigh

We are also not going to agree that racism being taught in the home/community is exclusive to blacks; and for reasons that should be too obvious to require articulation.

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm sure you will say that more young black men are involved than are young Asians; and perhaps you're right.  But, in my area, more young white men are involved in the klan than Hispanics are in MS-13.  Yet there is a marked difference in the way cops make arrests.  There is a marked difference in employment opportunities between the two.  There is a marked difference in accessibility to healthcare.

 

Interesting. If we're talking about the subsample of people in your area, it's perfectly fair (statistically) to make comparisons within that group. Are the klansmen engaged in violent behavior to the same extent as MS-13? If - hypothetically - the MS-13 people are eviscerating other humans, and the klansmen are just advocating for racism on social media, that would explain the difference in policing. Also, are the whites more affluent than the hispanics? If so, that would explain the employment and healthcare disparity.

 

On an unrelated note, what you're opinion on the "get over your historic oppression" proposal?

Link to post
Share on other sites



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.