Blind chance or god

[TABA]

9 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Actually it's generations of butterflies....reasonably sure the butterflies that overwinter in Mexico don't

make it back to Canada...

I believe I read somewhere that the northbound migration takes several generations but that the southbound journey is made by individual butterflies. Don’t make me Google it. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Q:  Why did the butterfly fly onto the table?

 

 

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

 

 

A:  Because the FLOOR IS LARVA!!!!

 

[midniterider]

12 hours ago, Wertbag said:

Do you think it flows that being taught fundamentalist ideology makes you more open to the other conspiracy theories?  I have certainly seen many flat earthers who will quote the bible, but no idea what percentage of them that would be.

Is it just being taught anti-science, anti-teacher, anti-authority, kind of thing that then makes these other crazy ideas sound very believable because you are starting from that negative view of mainstream education?

Do you think being taught religion is a gateway to other crazy ideas? 

 

Assigning agency and purpose to everything probably makes people feel that life makes sense and gives them a feeling of security. People want to say God did it, because it's scary to think that shit just happens. 

 

Personality is familiar and therefore comforting to us. Even Satan's agency is preferred by a Christian over random chance.

 

Look at some of these Christians whom are adamant that something cannot come from nothing. Lack of agency, intent or purpose flips them out.

 

For some, it doesnt matter how crazy the idea is...as long as there is some agency behind it, it brings them peace. 

 

(imo)

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, TABA said:

I believe I read somewhere that the northbound migration takes several generations but that the southbound journey is made by individual butterflies. Don’t make me Google it. 

We used to tag individuals in central Texas.  Apparently a source of income for the people in Mexico was to find the tagged individuals and turn them in.  I do know that some of the ones we tagged were recovered 800+ miles from the tagging location.  Had always understood the total migration both ways to be generations.  Google if you must lol.

[midniterider]

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

We used to tag individuals in central Texas.  Apparently a source of income for the people in Mexico was to find the tagged individuals and turn them in.  I do know that some of the ones we tagged were recovered 800+ miles from the tagging location.  Had always understood the total migration both ways to be generations.  Google if you must lol.

 

That's pretty cool to think about. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

https://www.google.com/search?q=migration+of+butterflies+mexico&oq=migration+of+buyter&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l4.8945j1j7&client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[LogicalFallacy]

So the monarchs take several generations to fly north with a shorter 7 week lifecycles, then a super generation flys south to Mexico. Amazing. 

[TABA]

2 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

So the monarchs take several generations to fly north with a shorter 7 week lifecycles, then a super generation flys south to Mexico. Amazing. 

Yeah it’s mind-boggling that such fragile creatures can accomplish anything like that.  Quite apart from the navigational skills built into those tiny brains...

[Wertbag]

3 minutes ago, TABA said:

Quite apart from the navigational skills built into those tiny brains

Instincts are fascinating. We usually think of instincts being base reactions, but when you see a tiny spider build a large symmetrical web, with no training and basically no brain, it is quite amazing just how complex those hard coded abilities can be. 

[Hierophant]

32 minutes ago, Wertbag said:

Instincts are fascinating. We usually think of instincts being base reactions, but when you see a tiny spider build a large symmetrical web, with no training and basically no brain, it is quite amazing just how complex those hard coded abilities can be. 

 

Don't let Kent Hovind, Ken Ham, or Banana Man hear you say that. As voiced by Banana Man, "Are you trying to tell me that these brainless creatures can make an intricate web like that, and they were not created for that specific purpose. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist."

 

He should lead with that in his next move with Kirk Cameron.

[Wertbag]

6 hours ago, Hierophant said:

Don't let Kent Hovind, Ken Ham, or Banana Man hear you say that. As voiced by Banana Man, "Are you trying to tell me that these brainless creatures can make an intricate web like that, and they were not created for that specific purpose. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist."

Did I say science doesn't know?  Oh no, that means the only other possibility is magic!   And it must be Christianity, cos no other God could have possibly trained spiders! 

Job 8:14 - "His confidence is severed, and his trust is a spider's web" - See, the bible literally says God's trust made spiders, what more proof do you need?

 

[Joshpantera]

10 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Assigning agency and purpose to everything probably makes people feel that life makes sense and gives them a feeling of security. People want to say God did it, because it's scary to think that shit just happens. 

 

Personality is familiar and therefore comforting to us. Even Satan's agency is preferred by a Christian over random chance.

 

Look at some of these Christians whom are adamant that something cannot come from nothing. Lack of agency, intent or purpose flips them out.

 

For some, it doesnt matter how crazy the idea is...as long as there is some agency behind it, it brings them peace. 

 

(imo)

 

For sure. It's incredible at times to think back to when I believed that everything HAD to be created by an external factor. Why did I think that? What gave me that idea? 

 

The reason is because I heard adults saying it over and over again at church and in weekly life. It took them saying it and me hearing it, for me to believe that everything had to be created by a god. Until I questioned the entire thing!!! Then it fell down so hard I could never pick it up again, even if I wanted to. 

 

 

 

[Astreja]

13 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Actually it's generations of butterflies....reasonably sure the butterflies that overwinter in Mexico don't

make it back to Canada...

 

That kind of relay is fascinating in itself. What compels them to come this far north?

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 6/28/2020 at 7:34 PM, florduh said:

We would welcome a clinical diagnosis for each troll. Unfortunately we're not equipped to evaluate and diagnose the mental state of posters. You know, like every other site.

 

A diagnosis couldn't be done without a full evaluation, but I am a retired Psychiatric Social Worker and can pick up clues from what is posted.  I PMed SV and highly suspect he has a mental disorder, but will not disclose what was discussed out of respect for his privacy.   

 

The way some people are treated on this site has bothered me previously.  We expect respect from them, but at times are just as disrespectful in return.  I don't know if anyone else agrees, and maybe I am just an old foggie, but the figure with head up ass is highly disrespectful.  How can we demand respect if we don't show it ourselves?  I would hope a site that declares to be a support group would have a little more sophistication.  And I am somewhat talking to myself, as my sarcasm occasionally comes through.  Overall this is a great forum, but this has been my biggest disappointment.

 

Back to mental illness.  Not everyone fits into neat categories, or is fully "ill", or fully "well".  There are different degrees of mental ilnesses, and different mixtures of features.  And many of us have different degrees of "quirks", but would not be classified as mentally ill. 

 

The correlation between religion and mental illness was of interest to me from the beginning of my education.  As it turns out, the correlation seems to be pretty loose.  I think it figures into the situations, but it is the overall family and community atmosphere, and heredity, that seems to matter more.  Inconsistency is a HUGE problem, and really effects our development.  Did our parents practice what they preached?  Did we know what to expect from day to day?  Were there deep secrets in the family?  Things that were too disturbing to think about, or even admit it happened?  Etc. And to complicate situations are things such as brain damage, chemical inbalances, etc.

 

If you think about it, why would a rational thinking person come onto this site and try to bring us back into the fold?  And why would they hang around after obviously hitting a brick wall?  That is an obvious clue that something is wrong.  Why don't they follow the command to shake the dust off their feet As they leave?

 

And are we "using" them to get our "jollies"?  To me, the respectful, humane thing to do would be to firmly escort them off the stage when we sense they are not thinking rationally, and become abusive.  And sensing irrational thinking does not take a professional.  Anyone living in regular society, half way educated, with ability to navigate the web, and believing the earth is flat, is very likely to not be thinking rationally. 

[freshstart]

I really appreciate your perspective, Weezer. That gives me food for thought. Just like mental health is on a continuum, so too (IMHO) is the rationality of Christian belief, especially in the face of so much contradictory (or lacking) evidence. I imagine for some Christians, the mental gymnastics that rational, logical, mentally healthy people have to do in order to maintain their beliefs creates such an internal struggle that it is bound to turn into some form of mental illness until or unless that struggle is resolved. Thus begins a path of either suppressing those thoughts and doubts or exploring them. Both are painful paths. But if God gave us a brain, he should expect us to use it. Furthermore, anything or anyone that demands our full devotion and submission should be able to stand up to scrutiny. Its no wonder some Christians come here angry, defensive, or attacking. Ultimately, its a belief system that seems designed to cause suffering, rather than alleviate it.

[florduh]

9 hours ago, Weezer said:

To me, the respectful, humane thing to do would be to firmly escort them off the stage when we sense they are not thinking rationally, and become abusive.  And sensing irrational thinking does not take a professional.

 

Irrational thinking is the hallmark of religion as a rational mind would not entertain such things as talking donkeys and virgin births. That begs the question, "Is religious belief a mental illness?" Some think so, others won't go that far.

 

If we simply deleted "irrational" people (the Christian kind of irrational, at least) there would be blow back for doing that as well. None of us have any way to determine if what someone posts is their true thoughts or cantankerous shit flinging. Websites can't and therefore don't decide is someone is mentally fit to participate.in discussions.

[Edgarcito]

11 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

That kind of relay is fascinating in itself. What compels them to come this far north?

There's a really good burger stand they like...can only get there by air... (teasing, trying to be funny.  My ex wife used to do butterflies.  I'm not even sure the experts know how their navigation works, truthfully).  Thanks A.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, florduh said:

 

Irrational thinking is the hallmark of religion

 

I totally agree, but since such a large portion of society participates, it is not considered "abnormal", or an illness.  Sometime in the far distant future, with moral evolution, it might get to that point.  LOL, but not in our lifetime!  Look how long it took to dispell a flat earth-----for most people anyway.

[florduh]

13 minutes ago, Weezer said:

I totally agree, but since such a large portion of society participates, it is not considered "abnormal", or an illness.  Sometime in the far distant future, with moral evolution, it might get to that point.  LOL, but not in our lifetime!  Look how long it took to dispell a flat earth-----for most people anyway.

 

An illness or delusion does not become healthy or correct just because millions may share the symptoms. I understand polio used to be very popular.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, florduh said:

 

If we simply deleted "irrational" people (the Christian kind of irrational, at least) there would be blow back for doing that as well. 

 

I should have phrased that differently.  We all get somewhat irrational at times.   But when they get verbally abusive or disrespectful, and don't head warnings, I think we should just block further participation.  And I wouldn't delete posting unless it was slanderous or violated someone's privacy. 

 

I am questioning how many actual trolls we have that are simply trying to push our buttons.  HA!  But some may get some pleasure from doing so.  My guess is that we have more "believers" with poor judgement, and some may be fighting with their own denial---- unconsciously trying to convince themselves that they are still believers.  It slowly occurred to me years ago that I might be doing some of that.  The thing that made the difference for me was to start praying to find truth.  Not to strengthen the faith that was programmed into me.

[LifeCycle]

28 minutes ago, florduh said:

 

An illness or delusion does not become healthy or correct just because millions may share the symptoms. I understand polio used to be very popular.

 

In other words, indoctrination potentially causes varying degrees of mental illness. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 minute ago, LifeCycle said:

 

In other words, indoctrination potentially causes varying degrees of mental illness. 

 

I wouldn't say it causes it, but it can contribute to it.

[LifeCycle]

2 minutes ago, Weezer said:

 

I wouldn't say it causes it, but it can contribute to it.

I know some intelligent people that approach everything else in life very rationally. I don't see any mental illness outside of their dogma. 

 

But, I'm sure, both can be true. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 minute ago, LifeCycle said:

I know some intelligent people that approach everything else in life very rationally. I don't see any mental illness outside of their dogma. 

 

You hit the nail on the head with that statement!  The world is full of them, including my wife and most relatives.   It is scary to think religion has that much control over people.   One reason I strongly support separation of church and state.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

10 minutes ago, LifeCycle said:

I know some intelligent people that approach everything else in life very rationally. I don't see any mental illness outside of their dogma. 

 

But, I'm sure, both can be true. 

 

Hey!  You are a neighbor of sorts.  My home town is a Tulsa suburb,  and where most of those relatives I mentioned above live.  Are you an off road bike rider?