Blind chance or god

[midniterider]

4 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Shhh

 

You'll get @mwc excited! He doesn't think we exist down here, but we do. It's our secret ok?

 

Frankly, Sir, I don't think either of us exists. 

 

[midniterider]

5 hours ago, Derek said:

I find this SV person to be rather entertaining...especially with all the "demon attack" talk. Lmao

 

https://gyazo.com/30782a5dbbc085bd2472bb04f860b402

[midniterider]

On 6/24/2020 at 4:45 AM, Joshpantera said:

Panspermia is one. Abiogensis is another. Some people look towards alien seeding. That's just three off the top of my head. The point being that the options on the table are large, not small....

 

My imaginary friend says panspermia is completely absurd!!! 

 

[Wertbag]

8 hours ago, SilentVoice said:

Until people observe that life can start from inanimate objects, then I will continue to worship God

It seems that some Christians really get hung up on these god of the gaps arguments.  "You don't know, therefore God!"  While it appears most atheists understand that these distant and incredibly hard to test ideas are not something to tie your belief to.  You'll make a lot more progress figuring out Gods hiddenness rather than showing incredulity at events billions of years ago.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Why y'all keep talking about pans of sperm?  Y'all nasty motherfuckers need jesus.

[TABA]

8 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Why y'all keep talking about pans of sperm?  Y'all nasty motherfuckers need jesus.

Uhh, prof, I’m not sure how to put this but ... you might want to see your doctor. 

[SilentVoice]

18 hours ago, midniterider said:

Flat earth ponderings:

 

Why the heck cant I watch any of that gosh darn great Middle East satellite TV programming over here in the USA? I oughta just be able to aim my dish up at the flat earth's sky and pick it up easy, from anywhere on our flat earth. 

 

And if the earth is flat then why is it dark in Russia when it's midday here? Is half of the world lying to the other half about it being night time when it's daytime here? 

 

And why the heck cant I see New Zealand from the USA with a pair of binoculars? Or a telescope. I have even been way up high in several airplanes and have never ever been able to see New Zealand. If the earth was flat I could certainly see any place from any other place, especially if I was in an airplane way above all the mountains. Satan must be hiding half the earth from me!

 

....

 

Why is Satan so powerful that SV's words from almighty Jesus are unable to penetrate Satan's grip on us heathens? You would think that if Jesus wanted us back that he would just destroy the evil one's power over us and his love would flow into our ears. Either Jesus doesn't really care about us enough to kick Satan's ass ...or he doesn't exist.

@Hierophant

I remembered some of your posts regarding your belief that Satan is just a mere messenger/servant carrying out the will of God so here's something for you too. That's actually quite awful, perhaps it's the reason why you have allowed him to seize your heart. Before posting some scripture I'd like to share something with you. Right now there are probably thousands of Christians crying their eyes out because they believe they've blasphemed against the Holy Spirit because they are being tortured by Satan with intrusive thoughts to cause them to stumble (you can google this for forum results). Can you imagine what a malicious murdering cursed liar you'd have to be to intrude in to someone's mind when they are bowing in the presence of the highest God humbly to beg for help in enduring torture. Do not make this mistake of believing that the cursed liar is not your adversary or God's. Allowing the enemy to temporarily occupy a position of power to carry out a 'filtering' of sorts is not the same thing as some harmless 'avenging servant'. God uses the enemy for good, even though the enemy means evil. Remember the story of how lovely Joseph was meek and innocent and got sold as a slave in Egypt but God allowed it to happen to bring about a good outcome. I am warning you sincerely. Do not underestimate your enemy. It is currently causing as much collateral damage as possible because what else can you do when your life is limited and you hate all that God stands for. God won't throw a person in the lake of fire that was just doing their job. It has no reason to attack you at the moment because you are not walking towards God. As soon as you repent (hopefully), you will be targetted again and you will know that you are important to God.

 

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

 

"Why is Satan so powerful that SV's words from almighty Jesus are unable to penetrate Satan's grip on us heathens?"

 

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Because God is temporarily allowing it to separate the wheat from the chaff. But the good news for you is that God has the power to give you repentance.

 

2 Timothy 2:

²⁴ And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

²⁵ In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

²⁶ And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

@midniterider

I don't know anything about radio waves but I do know that when driving from town to town here in the UK the radio reception gets fuzzy and the radios often flick between stations with stronger signals. You're asking why signals can't travel thousands of miles, maybe you could look up how the signals work. Consider how much junk air traffic there is with millions of wifi routers, TV channels, atmospheric electromagnetic interference, etc. It probably gets lost in the noise.

 

 

[TABA]

1 hour ago, SilentVoice said:

Right now there are probably thousands of Christians crying their eyes out because they believe they've blasphemed against the Holy Spirit because they are being tortured by Satan with intrusive thoughts to cause them to stumble (you can google this for forum results). Can you imagine what a malicious murdering cursed liar you'd have to be to intrude in to someone's mind when they are bowing in the presence of the highest God humbly to beg for help in enduring torture.

 

I know, right!  
 

And a deity that would allow any of his ‘children’ to be tormented like this, year after year, by an evil being, is either unable to do anything about it, or is evil beyond anything we see among mortal humans.  That’s it.  No human parent would tolerate their child going through such torment if they had any ability whatever to stop it.  
 

Oh, that or this monster doesn’t exist.  

[SilentVoice]

Just now, TABA said:

I know, right!  
 

And a deity that would allow any of his ‘children’ to be tormented like this, year after year, by an evil being, is either unable to do anything about it, or is evil beyond anything we see among mortal humans.  That’s it.  No human parent would tolerate their child going through such torment if they had any ability whatever to stop it.  
 

Oh, that or this monster doesn’t exist.  

I have trouble understanding the level of suffering but I honestly know it's for a good reason. Choosing to remain faithful in the face of such suffering. I can only conclude that it will be worth it in the end.

[Hierophant]

1 hour ago, SilentVoice said:

@Hierophant

I remembered some of your posts regarding your belief that Satan is just a mere messenger/servant carrying out the will of God so here's something for you too. That's actually quite awful, perhaps it's the reason why you have allowed him to seize your heart. Before posting some scripture I'd like to share something with you. Right now there are probably thousands of Christians crying their eyes out because they believe they've blasphemed against the Holy Spirit because they are being tortured by Satan with intrusive thoughts to cause them to stumble (you can google this for forum results). Can you imagine what a malicious murdering cursed liar you'd have to be to intrude in to someone's mind when they are bowing in the presence of the highest God humbly to beg for help in enduring torture. Do not make this mistake of believing that the cursed liar is not your adversary or God's. Allowing the enemy to temporarily occupy a position of power to carry out a 'filtering' of sorts is not the same thing as some harmless 'avenging servant'. God uses the enemy for good, even though the enemy means evil. Remember the story of how lovely Joseph was meek and innocent and got sold as a slave in Egypt but God allowed it to happen to bring about a good outcome. I am warning you sincerely. Do not underestimate your enemy. It is currently causing as much collateral damage as possible because what else can you do when your life is limited and you hate all that God stands for. God won't throw a person in the lake of fire that was just doing their job. It has no reason to attack you at the moment because you are not walking towards God. As soon as you repent (hopefully), you will be targetted again and you will know that you are important to God.

 

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

 

"Why is Satan so powerful that SV's words from almighty Jesus are unable to penetrate Satan's grip on us heathens?"

 

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Because God is temporarily allowing it to separate the wheat from the chaff. But the good news for you is that God has the power to give you repentance.

 

2 Timothy 2:

²⁴ And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

²⁵ In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

²⁶ And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

@midniterider

I don't know anything about radio waves but I do know that when driving from town to town here in the UK the radio reception gets fuzzy and the radios often flick between stations with stronger signals. You're asking why signals can't travel thousands of miles, maybe you could look up how the signals work. Consider how much junk air traffic there is with millions of wifi routers, TV channels, atmospheric electromagnetic interference, etc. It probably gets lost in the noise.

 

 

 

If Satan does not answer to God is some capacity, then God is not all-powerful. If you want to concede to some form of open theism, then I would have a different assessment. You do not realize you are contradicting yourself. The Book of Job is a good example of early Hebrew theology that believed "the satan" was nothing more than an angel or an agent, whatever you want to call it, who tested and accused humans of not meeting God's standard:

 

https://ucchurch.org/sermons/the-evolution-of-satan/

 

I could go on about this for hours, but you are not here to hear another side of the story, you are here to proselytize. You are not interested in hearing another interpretation of the book you hold in such high regard. I have spent the past two years studying the Bible from different angles and I am getting weary trying to show you that your ideas are not the slam dunks you want them to be.

 

Of those verses you mentioned, two of them come from books that are known to be forgeries, that is, Paul did not write them:

 

2 Thessalonians ~ forgery

2 Timothy ~ forgery

 

Question on Luke, if Jesus was God or a member of the Trinity, why is the devil trying to bribe him? Jesus is God, he already owns that stuff anyway. And think about it more, Luke is having Satan say that God gave him ownership of lands and people. How else do you want to define that relationship? Sure does not sound like two spiritual beings butting heads.together.

 

You have this idea in your head that makes sense to you, but the evidence does not back it up. No matter what anyone here says, you are just going to find a way to keep believing what you already believe.

[Hierophant]

1 minute ago, SilentVoice said:

I have trouble understanding the level of suffering but I honestly know it's for a good reason. Choosing to remain faithful in the face of such suffering. I can only conclude that it will be worth it in the end.

 

No, you do not know if there is a good reason. You just assume, or rather hope there is one.

[SilentVoice]

1 minute ago, Hierophant said:

 

If Satan does not answer to God is some capacity, then God is not all-powerful. If you want to concede to some form of open theism, then I would have a different assessment. You do not realize you are contradicting yourself. The Book of Job is a good example of early Hebrew theology that believed "the satan" was nothing more than an angel or an agent, whatever you want to call it, who tested and accused humans of not meeting God's standard:

 

https://ucchurch.org/sermons/the-evolution-of-satan/

 

I could go on about this for hours, but you are not here to hear another side of the story, you are here to proselytize. You are not interested in hearing another interpretation of the book you hold in such high regard. I have spent the past two years studying the Bible from different angles and I am getting weary trying to show you that your ideas are not the slam dunks you want them to be.

 

Of those verses you mentioned, two of them come from books that are known to be forgeries, that is, Paul did not write them:

 

2 Thessalonians ~ forgery

2 Timothy ~ forgery

 

Question on Luke, if Jesus was God or a member of the Trinity, why is the devil trying to bribe him? Jesus is God, he already owns that stuff anyway. And think about it more, Luke is having Satan say that God gave him ownership of lands and people. How else do you want to define that relationship? Sure does not sound like two spiritual beings butting heads.together.

 

You have this idea in your head that makes sense to you, but the evidence does not back it up. No matter what anyone here says, you are just going to find a way to keep believing what you already believe.

[I have spent the past two years studying the Bible from different angles and I am getting weary trying to show you that your ideas are not the slam dunks you want them to be. ]

It's starting to make sense. You've looked at things from the enemy's perspective and sympathized with him. Poor guy. The enemy will not be forgiven. The enemy will be cast out of heaven when God decides it is time.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

(Was perfect. Not any more. Now it is the enemy.)

 

Jesus is God in heaven, the Earth persecuted by the enemy. Essentially like a demiurge (but I'm not really educated on gnostic model hierarchy).

 

You still believe that the enemy is a good little pet doing God's will. The same way you probably think Joseph's brothers were doing God's will by throwing their little brother in a pit and then selling him to slavers. You're delusional.

 

The enemy roams the Earth looking to devour those people who it can. People who are not in God's grace. God allows this temporarily. The enemy has all power over the Earth, to deceive, to reward people who blaspheme against God, to kill and persecute Christians, to make people suffer diseases, etc. Those same diseases you blame God for.

 

God allowed the enemy to kill in the O.T. too;

 

Exodus 12:23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

 

Just as God allowed the enemy to lie to people as a punishment towards them.

 

1 Kings 22:22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

 

God does not lie. Satan does. The destroyer is now the enemy. The god of the Earth, until the time when Jesus returns and imprisons him.

[Hierophant]

Demiurge means the creator god.

[Hierophant]

3 minutes ago, SilentVoice said:

[I have spent the past two years studying the Bible from different angles and I am getting weary trying to show you that your ideas are not the slam dunks you want them to be. ]

It's starting to make sense. You've looked at things from the enemy's perspective and sympathized with him. Poor guy. The enemy will not be forgiven. The enemy will be cast out of heaven when God decides it is time.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

(Was perfect. Not any more. Now it is the enemy.)

 

Jesus is God in heaven, the Earth persecuted by the enemy. Essentially like a demiurge (but I'm not really educated on gnostic model hierarchy).

 

You still believe that the enemy is a good little pet doing God's will. The same way you probably think Joseph's brothers were doing God's will by throwing their little brother in a pit and then selling him to slavers. You're delusional.

 

The enemy roams the Earth looking to devour those people who it can. People who are not in God's grace. God allows this temporarily. The enemy has all power over the Earth, to deceive, to reward people who blaspheme against God, to kill and persecute Christians, to make people suffer diseases, etc. Those same diseases you blame God for.

 

God allowed the enemy to kill in the O.T. too;

 

Exodus 12:23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

 

Just as God allowed the enemy to lie to people as a punishment towards them.

 

1 Kings 22:22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

 

God does not lie. Satan does. The destroyer is now the enemy. The god of the Earth, until the time when Jesus returns and imprisons him.

 

You are not getting it. You refuse to see the link. If I told you to go tell someone else a lie, am I not behind the lie?

 

Ezekiel 28 is about the Prince of Tyre.

 

Did you read that article? Or did you ignore it because it made you uncomfortable in your theology?

[SilentVoice]

1 minute ago, Hierophant said:

 

You are not getting it. You refuse to see the link. If I told you to go tell someone else a lie, am I not behind the lie?

 

Ezekiel 28 is about the Prince of Tyre.

 

Did you read that article? Or did you ignore it because it made you uncomfortable in your theology?

No I just clicked on the link now because I skipped over it. I was trying to explain to you because you don't understand. You still think the enemy is an good little errand boy and not oppressing people. Cursed liar is abusing power over the Earth, wants to be like God, hates Christians, hates Jesus.

 

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

You picked Jews/atheists/blind people as your teachers instead of the Holy Spirit.

 

Let's pick apart this stupid article.

 

"In 1 Samuel 16 he personally sends an “evil spirit” to madden King Saul. It is not the devil who does this, because there is no devil; God does it. And in 1 Kings 22 the same God sends a “lying spirit” to mislead Ahab."

 

The destroyer, the liar, enemy, Satan, Devil. Different names, same thing. As an accuser it has access to heaven to bring accusations of our sins before God the Father to demand punishment. It won't have access to heaven forever.

 

How many liars do you think are in heaven? No liar will enter New Jerusalem. The angels don't lie, the enemy (a fallen angel) does (and in this story, the liar, under the name of 'the destroyer', volunteers to go and lie and God allows it (as a punishment) to happen.

 

Blaming God for lies is like blaming Romans for killing Jesus when it was the Jews. That article sounds awfully Jewish by the way (pro-torah, satanic apologetics).

[Hierophant]

@SilentVoice There is no point in continuing this. You can quote Bible verses all you want but you are completely ignorant to the history of the Bible and the evolution of theology.

[SilentVoice]

3 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

@SilentVoice There is no point in continuing this. You can quote Bible verses all you want but you are completely ignorant to the history of the Bible and the evolution of theology.

You're essentially upset because you want me to love Satan. I hate Satan. Sorry.

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, SilentVoice said:

"Why is Satan so powerful that SV's words from almighty Jesus are unable to penetrate Satan's grip on us heathens?"

 

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Because God is temporarily allowing it to separate the wheat from the chaff. But the good news for you is that God has the power to give you repentance.

 

2 Timothy 2:

²⁴ And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

²⁵ In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

²⁶ And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

.

Sounds like some heavy duty mental gymnastics to me. I think the more likely explanation is that Jesus is imaginary. Jesus? Would you like to jump in here and help out your follower SV? Hello? Jesus? I keep asking Jesus to say something. Why doesn't he? I suppose there is some vague scripture SV can dig up about why Jesus is always quiet and absent. Maybe Satan is holding Jesus hostage?

.

@midniterider

I don't know anything about radio waves but I do know that when driving from town to town here in the UK the radio reception gets fuzzy and the radios often flick between stations with stronger signals. You're asking why signals can't travel thousands of miles, maybe you could look up how the signals work. Consider how much junk air traffic there is with millions of wifi routers, TV channels, atmospheric electromagnetic interference, etc. It probably gets lost in the noise.

 

Quit talking out you're ass. 

 

 

 

[Hierophant]

8 minutes ago, SilentVoice said:

You're essentially upset because you want me to love Satan. I hate Satan. Sorry.

 

No, that is not what I was saying. I was trying to put it in the context that Satan, in my opinion, doesn't really matter. He has no authority other than the authority he was given by God, so I don't see the point of even considering him.

[Joshpantera]

12 hours ago, SilentVoice said:

If aliens exist, are they alive? (I don't believe they are real)

If they are alive are they created or was abiogenesis real? (Life does not come from non-life)

If aliens created life on earth, it does not answer the question; did God create life (alien or otherwise) or was it abiogenesis?

 

Do asteroids carry amino acids through solar systems and deposit those acids on planets, i.e. panspermia? (I don't believe so)

If so have any of the dozens of required amino acids been found together naturally anywhere, ever, that are required to make life? (No)

Does an early Earth atmosphere in theory contain anything that is harmful to amino acids? (Yes, the atmosphere itself literally breaks down the building blocks of life).

 

The "real big questions" you talk of is just 1 ultimate question. Did God create life or was it abiogenesis?

 

 

I was referring to an existence that has to have always been, and the possibility that life has always gone hand in hand with existence itself in some way. Be it repeating patterns, be it something else. The eternal-ness of mere existence and the processes that bring life. From there, of course, life can distribute any number of ways. But existence has no fixed beginning and life may not have one to pin point either. 

 

That's the deeper issue. 

 

If you come back with, "god did it," that is to be expected. And I addressed that as well. 

 

What created god? 

 

If god is uncreated, then natural existence itself can be uncreated as well. Natural existence can just exist without any fixed explanation as to how, or why. So can life within the scheme of natural existence. Any other way is just special pleading for your pet belief system. And that's where the issue stands. Whatever you claim of god, can be claimed of natural existence as well. And natural existence, between the two options, is the simpler explanation. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

This thread was moved to The Den due to a considerable amount of scripture being bandied about.  Please keep in mind, all of you, that the other forums on this website are safe spaces for recovering ex-christians and those struggling with deconversion.  As such, use care and common sense when engaging with individuals who either can not read our rules or can not respect them.

 

@SilentVoice, should you chose to continue ignoring the rules of this website, and the individual forums herein, you will be banned from further activity in our community.  Scripture verses, preaching, apologetics, all belong in The Den, and only in The Den.  The choice is yours: respect our rules, leave, or get the hammer.

 

Carry on.

[Astreja]

11 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Frankly, Sir, I don't think either of us exists. 

 

 

(looks around)  Who said that?

[LogicalFallacy]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2020 at 11:38 PM, SilentVoice said:

They are all related. The big bang theory -> abiogenesis -> evolution -> atheism.

 

Not necessarily. Dr William Lane Craig is the foremost Christian apologist. He accepts the Big Bang and Evolution. But he believes God set the big bang in motion and started off the first life. There is no necessarily link through them all to atheism. Evolution is true regardless of whether you are an atheist or not. Only Creationists argue the point because they read Genesis literally like simple children, instead of considering that it is not a scientific work, but attempting to convey meaning about life.

 

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2020 at 11:38 PM, SilentVoice said:

I thought you guys were supposed to be intelligent.

 

Again, there is no particular co-relation between atheism and intelligence. I've met very intelligent Christians and completely stupid atheists.

[LogicalFallacy]

3 hours ago, SilentVoice said:

You're essentially upset because you want me to love Satan. I hate Satan. Sorry.

 

It's kinda like saying you hate Darth Vader... why bother with the emotional output over a fictional character?

[LogicalFallacy]

 

Quote

I wish your keyboard would come alive and smack you in the face. Until people observe that life can start from inanimate objects, then I will continue to worship God.

 

No one thinks life started from inanimate objects except creationists when they strawman the argument.

 

I wish your God would come to life and smack me in the face... wait I'll turn my cheek... no, nothing... other cheek... nada. Based on your reasoning, your God doesn't exist so I will continue worshiping nothing. (Oh wait we are both worshiping nothing... how ironic.)