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Christians Who Do Not Believe the Bible is Inerrant


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18 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Ya reckon?

 

See I was right all along... the future just hadn't caught up. 😆

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I think what you’re referring to is called rationalizing a cognitive dissonance. All religious people have to do this in order for the Bible to make sense in their minds. Why do intelligent people bel

I think even fundamentalists realize, without realizing it, that the bible is not inerrant or infallible.  Every time someone says, "well, that scripture was just for those days" or "that verse doesn'

I always enjoy the fact that we have a good mixture of different denominations on Ex-C. Every time we have a discussion, I really enjoy hearing the different backgrounds, interpretations, and I normal

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On 8/21/2020 at 1:40 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

It seems it's now located under the 3 dots at the top right of every post. Welcome to update quirks. 

 

You are correct.  THANKS!

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On 8/21/2020 at 6:52 PM, Robert_Tulip said:

I see the 'kernel of truth' in Christianity as the direct basis of the Christ Myth in the ancient observation of precession of the equinoxes.  This is a heavily concealed story that has numerous points of justification.  The ancients could see for centuries or millennia before Christ that the sun would enter the northern hemisphere in Pisces at around the time we now know was 21 AD.  This intellectual structure of astronomy gave the impetus to Old Testament prophecy of Christ, and is the scientific basis of core Christian allegories including the alpha and omega, the loaves and fishes, the holy city, the Second Coming, the upper room, the tree of life and all the fish and lamb imagery.

 

Sorry, but you completely lost me with that explanation. 

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On 8/21/2020 at 10:23 PM, Krowb said:

 

that means I may get my 75 virgins early?

 

Why virgins?  I much prefer an experienced lady who likes to "get it on!"

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8 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

Sorry, but you completely lost me with that explanation. 

Looking to your original reply, you seem to misunderstand my comment that the kernel of truth in Christianity is allegorical, since you relate it to the Golden Rule, which is not allegory.  I am saying that Bible stories like the Tree of Life in Rev 22 were originally written as direct allegory for empirical observation of the starry sky.  This is simple to explain but not well known.  Allegorical cosmology is not compatible with inerrantist fundamentalism.

 

Myth, including Christianity, has four functions - awe, cosmology, ethics and comfort - to paraphrase Joseph Campbell.  Your statement that the kernel of truth is in the golden rule of love addresses the third function, ethics. I am arguing that the first and second functions, awe and cosmology, are more important to explain Christian origins.  My view is that the essential kernel of the original cosmology of the astronomer priests was that the precession of the equinox enabled the inventors of Christianity to construct the myth of Jesus Christ as an awesome cosmology, grounded in empirical observation of the orderly visible movement of the heavens.  This hypothesis is coherent but has been entirely suppressed due to its association with astrology. They imagined the "new age" of the alpha and omega point of Christ based on the observation of the stars.  I can expand on why all the stories I mentioned are grounded in observation of the stars including precession.  

 

Thanks

 

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Perhaps someone else would like to see an explanation, and I mean no offence, but at this point in my life I am not interested in hearing about more ancient mythology.

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On 8/24/2020 at 2:14 AM, Weezer said:

Perhaps someone else would like to see an explanation, and I mean no offence, but at this point in my life I am not interested in hearing about more ancient mythology.

 

Robert and I used to moderate for freethoughtnation.com. For author DM Murdock. The main thesis had to do with astrotheology in the bible. Most of the content is not so well known. 

 

But as to the kernel of truth, he's just pointing out that the astrotheological allegories are true in the sense of people observing the sky, constellations, seasons, etc., etc., and then mythologizing what they observed. So their observations such as the vernal equinox sunrises were no longer taking place in the constellation of Aries, but into the constellation of Pisces, would be the truth part of the christian mythologizing. The fish and virgin symbols stemming from the pisces-virgo axial world age which had just began around that time. 

 

The wisdom sayings that were tossed in, such as, "do unto others," and so on, were tossed in behind the main premise that the ages had changed. In both cases it could be argued that a truth can be found there. But at the same time, and in both cases, what the truth of the myths are is largely divorced from what people think of as true when believing the myths. There's no literal god as true in either case. But there are layers of things that are true given as allegory, metaphor, and whatnot. These don't amount to a literal god, though. 

 

Hence my friend Robert Tulip, the church going christian atheist. He's culturally christian. But not theistic about it. What's interesting is that it puts him on both sides of the isle in forum like this one. He is atheist. And he is christian. It's a type of liberal, philosophical based christian view that allows for atheism. But still holds on to value in terms of the christian mythos. 

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I appreciate the effort Josh, but it all seems disjointed to me.  HA!  Maybe senility is setting in!  And a lack of interest in any more ancient myth. I should have just kept quiet.

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9 hours ago, Weezer said:

I appreciate the effort Josh, but it all seems disjointed to me.  HA!  Maybe senility is setting in!  And a lack of interest in any more ancient myth. I should have just kept quiet.

 

That's fair enough. 

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On 8/28/2020 at 1:47 PM, Joshpantera said:

Robert and I used to moderate for freethoughtnation.com. For author DM Murdock [also known as Acharya S]. The main thesis had to do with astrotheology in the bible. Most of the content is not so well known. 

Hi Josh, yes we had some superb conversations at Free Thought Nation, especially on the stellar meaning in the apocalypse.  So sad that Acharya passed away at such a young age.  I often read her work and find that she has a clarity of vision that is profound and inspiring, with an amazing solid foundation in scholarly analysis of primary sources.  The scale of attack from inerrantist bigots and their dogmatic friends contributed to her early death.  The ongoing failure to engage with Murdock's ideas shows how difficult it is to have a rational conversation about religion. 

 

I helped to edit the second edition of her groundbreaking original book The Christ Conspiracy which was published earlier this year.  An essay I wrote on Precession as the Framework of Christian Origins is included as an appendix.  I think this material should be helpful for ex-Christians who wrongly think that fundamentalist churches speak for the Christian faith, so I will share it in a new post here. 

Explaining Christianity as having originated in high cosmic wisdom and then having fallen into depraved political corruption can show how the original construction of the Christ Myth reflects a rational and compassionate philosophy.  That provides a basis to toss out all the inerrantist junk in the same way the parable says weeds will be burned at the end of the age.

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On 8/28/2020 at 1:47 PM, Joshpantera said:

But as to the kernel of truth, he's just pointing out that the astrotheological allegories are true in the sense of people observing the sky, constellations, seasons, etc., etc., and then mythologizing what they observed. 

Yes.  For example, if we ask what is the kernel of truth in the stories of Christmas and Easter, the basic fact that they occur just after the winter solstice and spring equinox provides a far more meaningful explanation than the traditional superstitions of supernatural intervention. Christmas represents the birth of the sun after the shortest day of the year, while Easter represents the triumph of life over death as the days become longer than the nights and the sun enters the northern hemisphere.  These examples are just the beginning of how to see the Gospels as astral allegory to consider the story of Jesus as a model for moral life, recognising that Jesus was constructed to personify the sun as the source of life and light and order.

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On 8/28/2020 at 1:47 PM, Joshpantera said:

So their observations such as the vernal equinox sunrises were no longer taking place in the constellation of Aries, but into the constellation of Pisces, would be the truth part of the christian mythologizing. The fish and virgin symbols stemming from the pisces-virgo axial world age which had just began around that time. 

This point about the precession of the equinox is extremely obscure for a general audience, but it provides the key to explain the real meaning of the Gospels.  The ancients could see for centuries beforehand that at the time of Christ the spring point would move from Aries to Pisces, an event that entirely provides the basis for the alleged prophecies of the Old Testament and the meaning for the symbolic imagery of Christ.  This astral meaning was stripped out of the texts as heresy, but can readily be seen if we know what to look for.  For example you mention the fish and virgin symbols of the Pisces-Virgo axial world age.  Virgo, which is also the sign of bread due to its main star Spica which gives the name to the spike of wheat, is directly opposite Pisces in the sky.  Therefore the loaves and fishes miracle can be read as a parable for the imagined transformation of the world produced by this new cosmic age of the Virgo-Pisces equinox axis.  This material also points to the argument that the Gospel writers saw the Second Coming of Jesus Christ as the dawn of the Age of Aquarius.  That is a purely rational and scientific interpretation of the text, but the depth of bigotry means it is an idea that is largely unable to be discussed.

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On 8/28/2020 at 1:47 PM, Joshpantera said:

The wisdom sayings that were tossed in, such as, "do unto others," and so on, were tossed in behind the main premise that the ages had changed.

The gospel writers imagined a new age with Christ as avatar, presenting a moral theory that would entirely transform the prevailing sentiments of the old age.  How I see it is that the Age of Pisces presented new ideas, such as the Beatitudes and Last Judgement, with the view that it would take 2000 years until the Age of Aquarius before it would become possible for such radical liberation theology to become a basis for human life.  So the Book of Revelation is a prediction of an ethical model for the Age of Aquarius, creating a new heaven and new earth – behold I make all things new. 

 

It is true that the Golden Rule appears in many religions, but the way the zodiac age cosmology works is that it sees an eschatological conflict between the new morality and the way of the world, a war between grace and corruption.  We are now again at the point of paradigm shift between zodiac ages, making it a reasonable question to ask if the mentality of the Age of Pisces, reflected in pathological psychologies like inerrantism, has degenerated to a point of insanity, and now has to be replaced by a new vision. 

 

The interesting possibility is that the New Age imagined with the arrival of the Age of Aquarius can be seen in the context of the Biblical vision of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, as a story that has to be constructed through human wisdom rather than as an act of divine intervention.

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On 8/28/2020 at 1:47 PM, Joshpantera said:

the truth of the myths ... is largely divorced from what people think of as true when believing the myths. There's no literal god as true in either case. But there are layers of things that are true given as allegory, metaphor, and whatnot. These don't amount to a literal god, though. 

Belief is an obsolete ontology.  Evidence and logic are the highest moral values.  We should never believe anything that lacks strong support in evidence and logic.  The entire story of the Bible is fictional, so its meaning rests in its ethical symbolism, not any claims about actual intervention of God in history.  The whole concept of a literal God is deeply corrupt, serving to support a social hierarchy.  The real God is a complete mystery, whose attributes cannot reliably be asserted to include existence or intention.  Even so, constructing God as a product of transcendental imagination serves the high ethical function of articulating how the universe could support human flourishing.  

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On 8/28/2020 at 1:47 PM, Joshpantera said:

Hence my friend Robert Tulip, the church going christian atheist. He's culturally christian. But not theistic about it. What's interesting is that it puts him on both sides of the isle in forum like this one. He is atheist. And he is christian. It's a type of liberal, philosophical based christian view that allows for atheism. But still holds on to value in terms of the christian mythos. 

The value in the Christian mythos is its hidden vision of cosmic order.  This vision only makes sense as something entirely compatible with modern scientific knowledge, recognising atheism as an ethical method that applies due scepticism to the emotional comforts of religious fantasy. 

 

All Christian claims about miracles as actions of God are a corrupt delusion.  The Bible itself supports this critical interpretation at Mark 8:12, where Jesus has just allegedly performed the miracle of feeding the multitude, and then immediately tells the Pharisees that no sign from heaven will be given to this generation, despite apparently having just provided one. 

 

In Matthew and Luke, Christ expands this point by saying that asking for signs is evil and adulterous.  The point is that this miracle, like all the miracles, is not a sign from God, but is actually a parable, a fictional story with an ethical meaning.  God does not break the laws of physics. The parable in the loaves and fishes, concealed by centuries of stupid hostility to natural reading, is the imaginative cosmology that the new age of Pisces offered a path toward universal abundance. 

 

The myth of Jesus Christ represents the spirit of the golden age of wisdom appearing in the midst of the iron age of ignorance.  The meaning of the resurrection is the hope that ignorance cannot destroy wisdom. The best way to make sense of the Bible is to say it predicted the Age of Pisces would prime the pump in preparation for planetary transformation in the Age of Aquarius, as a path of human cultural evolution. 

 

This framework of deep time can be fully reconciled with the scientific understanding of the orbital cycles of climate change by seeing how the same orderly pattern appears in both modern climate science and the ancient vision of zodiac ages.

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Robert, I apologize.  After reading the above posts, I get your point.  I seem to have a history of giving knee jerk reactions. 

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