Christianity a Roman Invention?

[Lightbearer]

Hello Old Friends, 

I just watched this Youtube video and it reminded me of this old forum, I'm surprised my account is still here. But I thought I'd share because back in the day this would have been a fun subject to talk about. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmEScIUcvz0 

TLDR the video presents a theory that Jesus was a propaganda tool to get Jews to worship Roman Emperors. Neat.

[Joshpantera]

It is interesting because it brings awareness to a lot of problems with the historical jesus story. But this particular book has a lot of problems associated with it. And has been frowned on by most of the other mythicist's. 

 

But I will say this, it tends to outline the issues of written in greek, entering the historical record after Josephus, possibly using Josephus to try and craft a pseudo historical element. Even setting aside the thesis of this book, the fact remains that the gospels enter the historical record after Josephus, during the second century. After Marcion's Gospel. We have to assume that they were around at the end of the 1st century, and possibly reworked until their entrance into the historical recording during the mid to late 2nd century. It's a hell of a rabbit hole to get into. 

[LogicalFallacy]

No, the idea that Christianity was invented by the Romans, or was only invented in 325AD by Constantine or such claims are complete bunk.

 

There is some plausibility to reputable mythicist scholars who say Jesus as a person never existed, but that's a different claim from suggesting Christianity was a Roman invention. Christianity came out of Judaism. The first Christians were Jews who either thought that their crucified Rabbi had risen, or simply made up a story of a Jesus figure rising. Either way the Romans didn't invent it.

 

The book and lectures by Bart Erhman "How Jesus Became God" will lend some historical light on the subject.

[Myrkhoos]

Idk the book, but I would support a much more milder account. Christianity , with various edits of course,  did prove to be a very good match as an imperial religion. Universal, missionary,hierarchical, exclusivist but also willing to incorporate and adapt to local conditions like language, diet, calendar days, old art etc. The recipe then copied by Muhammed, but with an added militaristic twist from the getgo.

[Eugene39]

I watched the video last evening and found it interesting. It certainly doesn't fit with Bishop Spong's ideas that he wrote about in his book "Biblical Literalism: A Gentile Heresy" which seems to be a more logical possibility to me of how the gospels were created.

 

My biggest hang-up though is what do we do with the Apostle Paul's writings. He doesn't seem to know anything about Jesus' life other than the last supper scene, but he does mention a person named Jesus. If Jesus was completely an allegory invented far later by Josephus, then Paul shouldn't have known about him.

[Geezer]

Hermann Detering, in his book The Fabricated Paul, presents a creditable theory that Marcion and Simon Magus were the real creators of Christianity. He presents his evidence that Paul was a fictional character and that his Epistles were written by Marcion and Simon Magus in the early part of the second century. 
 

I recommend his book, it’s an interesting and believable read. Dr. Robert Price also speculates in his book, The Amazing Colossal Apostle, that Paul was a fictional character. 

 

As others have noted Paul does not appear to have known anything about an earthly Jesus. Based on the evidence I’ve examined I think Paul, like Jesus, was a fictional character. 

 

 

 

[InamBerea]

Rome was a pagan culture until the time of Constantine around 336AD. [1] 

 

The Christian Bible forbids emperor worship. Emperor worship was rebuked by Jesus in the Book of Revelation 2:14. The city "Pergamum" was a place where emperor worship was common [2], Jesus compared the behavior of the people of Pergamum to the foolishness of Baalam, who tried to get Israel to sin with Pagan Gods and sexual immorality.

 

Christianity was not even called Christianity until about 10 years after the resurrection (Acts 11:22). It was called "The Way" for the 1st 10 years. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life", so followers of Jesus were called followers of "The Way". 

 

Judaism and Christianity are inseparable. That's why the Gospels of Matthew & Luke contain detailed genealogy's back to King David. The Gospel of Matthew could only have been written by a Jew because of the many detailed references to Jewish tradition, and the Gospel of Luke opens Chapter 1 in the Temple of God. Luke creates a bridge between OT promises and NT fulfillment. 

 

We know that Paul was also a Jew who studied under Gamaliel, a prominent 1st century Rabbi (Acts 22:3). Paul was also a Pharisee who persecuted Christians to the death. He converted to Christianity according to his testimony when he saw Jesus himself on the way to Damascus. 

 

All Christian Books of the Bible were written by Jews except for the Gospel of Luke and Book of Acts. The Gospel of Luke was written to a Gentile Roman official named "Theophilus". He was evidently an important Roman official because Luke refers to him as "Most Excellent". (Luke 1:3).  If Luke purpose was to convert Jews, why was Luke's Gospel initially written for a Gentile? The Book of Acts was also written to the same Theophilus. (Acts 1:1). We know he's the same 'Theophilus' because in Acts Luke refers to "The former account (of Jesus)" that was made. (Acts 1:1). 

 

The New Testament books are addresses to Believers in Jesus Christ, Both Jews and Gentiles. The emphasis of Paul's ministry switch to primarily Gentile in Acts 18:6. The Apostle Peter also brought the Gospel Message to Gentiles. A man named Cornelius and his family (Acts 10)

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

To my understanding Christianity was not a Roman invention, but Constantine and the "church" at that time determined what it would become by getting rid of writings they didn't like, and likely doing some fabrication of writings.  And killing off pagans and heritics for the next few hundred years.  A real "holy" bunch of guys!

[InamBerea]

@Weezer - That's right. After Constantine became Christian, Rome merged pagan traditions with Christianity. That's why we have "Christmas Trees" and "Yule Logs" at Christmas, they were pagan traditions combined with Christianity to celebrate the Birth of Christ. December 25th was also chosen by the Romans as the date of the Birth of Christ. The Bible does not tell us when Jesus was born. 

 

The killing of Pagans and Heretics came later, with Catholics and Protestants killing each other in the 1400's & 1500's. I'm not aware of pagan persecution by Rome, but they did kill Christians under Nero. 

 

The Jesus of the Bible is not like that... Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek and pray for our enemies. When religious leaders wanted to stone a woman to death caught in adultery, Jesus responded in a way that sent them home. All he had to say to the woman is go home and stop sinning. (John 8:3-11). Whenever he found someone living a live apart from God, he only said "just stop sinning". (John 5:14-15)

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I would have responded sooner, but just got back from a week long vacation.  I have a lot of respect for the Jesus story, and believe his admonition to love neighbor as self is the "salvation" of mankind on earth, but after a lot of research believe he may have actually existed, but was not divine.  I like how he rephrased the golden rule.  I am no longer a "Christian", but often tell people I am a jesus-ite.