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I saw that @midniterider started a similar topic back in 2019, and in light of a recent guest at EX-C who is just absolutely fixated on the idea that Satan is this cosmic antagonist who rivals YHWH's power, I thought it would be great to get to the core of this nefarious character and unearth his development in the Jewish and Christian faith.

 

In my opinion, a recent guest's entire worldview rests on the idea that Satan is manipulating the minds of every non believer that everything we know about science is completely bogus nonsense and not to be trusted.

 

I want to kick off the discussion by stating that I find the notion of Satan ridiculous in light of an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, and perfect God. If that is the kind of God we are dealing with, then Satan is no more than a pawn in some cosmic game. Satan is only as powerful as YHWH let's him be and he must be answering to God is some capacity:

 

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan (or rather "the satan" =  the accuser) also came among them.

 

Satan is allowed at the council of God, so something is up. He cannot be that much of an adversary. SV wanted to argue that Ezekiel 28 stated Satan was made perfect, but then he fell. I find it strange that something that is perfect, is yet defunct enough to start slipping. How exactly does perfection fail? It must be implied that God built a defect into Satan for El Diablo to tap into it.

 

 

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"Satan everywhere" was very popular with several people in the Pentecostal church I attended in the 90s. People talked a lot about being a "Prayer Warrior" which came with Ephesians 6 putting on the armor of God bullshit. One lady in particular had us praying against "The Enemy" and his "principalities" often. I think the pastor who didnt want people to be fearful and uncomfortable in his church,  one day, as a sidenote to his sermon said something like, "I've heard that some people think we are in some kind of epic battle of good vs evil, or that Satan is as powerful as Jesus. Well, that's false. Jesus is all powerful and Satan is not. Jesus already has the victory, blah blah blah." It was sweet that he basically shut this nutcase up with her Satan fear. 

 

One facebook friend a while back mentioned "The Enemy" so apparently that nonsense is still being propagated by fundyland. They mentioned the Deep State as well but I didnt ask them about flat earth. lol. 

 

It seems that if Jesus is looking out for his sheep then he would not let his sheep be harmed by "The Enemy." You wouldn't have to concern yourself with "The Enemy." And if God allows Satan to wreak havoc in your life so you will 'turn to God' then God is "The Enemy." 

 

But I dont think any of the characters of the bible are real so this is all hypothetical imo. Kind of like talking about what Spiderman should do. 

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10 minutes ago, midniterider said:

"Satan everywhere" was very popular with several people in the Pentecostal church I attended in the 90s. People talked a lot about being a "Prayer Warrior" which came with Ephesians 6 putting on the armor of God bullshit. One lady in particular had us praying against "The Enemy" and his "principalities" often. I think the pastor who didnt want people to be fearful and uncomfortable in his church,  one day, as a sidenote to his sermon said something like, "I've heard that some people think we are in some kind of epic battle of good vs evil, or that Satan is as powerful as Jesus. Well, that's false. Jesus is all powerful and Satan is not. Jesus already has the victory, blah blah blah." It was sweet that he basically shut this nutcase up with her Satan fear. 

 

One facebook friend a while back mentioned "The Enemy" so apparently that nonsense is still being propagated by fundyland. They mentioned the Deep State as well but I didnt ask them about flat earth. lol. 

 

It seems that if Jesus is looking out for his sheep then he would not let his sheep be harmed by "The Enemy." You wouldn't have to concern yourself with "The Enemy." And if God allows Satan to wreak havoc in your life so you will 'turn to God' then God is "The Enemy." 

 

But I dont think any of the characters of the bible are real so this is all hypothetical imo. Kind of like talking about what Spiderman should do. 

 

I think the 90s was a bit late for the apex of the "Satanic Panic," but it was not too far after. If I remember correctly, the Satanic Panic was in full swing during the 70s/80s.

 

"It seems that if Jesus is looking out for his sheep then he would not let his sheep be harmed by 'The Enemy.' You wouldn't have to concern yourself with 'The Enemy.' And if God allows Satan to wreak havoc in your life so you will 'turn to God' then God is 'The Enemy.'" Great point, I was trying to say the same thing in another thread, but I do not believe I articulated it as well as you did.

 

In case it was not clear, my comments on Satan are all merely hypothetical as well. I am speaking from a point of using the historical-critical method to shine some light on ideas of Satan as they developed over time, but not as if I am saying I think he is a real thing. 10 points to you for your use of principle of analogy with the Spiderman comment..

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I grew up during the height of the satanic panic; and, as a kid, was always fascinated by subliminal messages and backward masking.  As a result, even into adulthood, I often look at things backwards, not just to find hidden meanings, but also to gain alternative perspectives.  

 

The name Satan, written backward, is Natas, which is sometimes used in Central European countries as a masculine equivalent to Natashia or Natalia.  It comes from the Latin natale domini which means "god's birthday."  Now, I'm not saying that "the enemy" was specifically given that name just to brain-fuck people; I'm just saying that if I had been the one making up the story, he'd have been given that name specifically to brain-fuck people.

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My take on the subject is that when someone says “Satan”, most of the time they should say “Lucifer”.  In my mind these are 2 very different characters in xian mythology.  Lucifer is “the fallen one”, “prince of darkness”, and “the devil”.  Satan is not a name so much as a title.  He is “the accuser”, basically they guy who plays the role of the prosecutor in god’s court.  There are biblical references that bear this out as well.  As was mentioned earlier, satan was in heaven, talking to god during the book of Job, but elsewhere the Bible says that Lucifer was cast out of heaven before creation.  

 

During my xian days, this explained part of the opening to the book of Genesis.  Lucifer translates basically as “light bringer”.  So after he was cast out, the first thing god needed to do was create light, since he had just expelled his previous light source.

 

 

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On 6/27/2020 at 8:59 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I grew up during the height of the satanic panic; and, as a kid, was always fascinated by subliminal messages and backward masking.  As a result, even into adulthood, I often look at things backwards, not just to find hidden meanings, but also to gain alternative perspectives.  

 

The name Satan, written backward, is Natas, which is sometimes used in Central European countries as a masculine equivalent to Natashia or Natalia.  It comes from the Latin natale domini which means "god's birthday."  Now, I'm not saying that "the enemy" was specifically given that name just to brain-fuck people; I'm just saying that if I had been the one making up the story, he'd have been given that name specifically to brain-fuck people.

 

It was also the name of a pro skater in the 80's, which, is when I picked up on the reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natas_Kaupas

 

There was a panic of attempted censorship, when, the name was legit and wasn't even just some skater screwing around with a nickname that spelled satan backwards. It was his real birth name. The panic was all for naught. No matter how true it 'seemed' to everyone who was misjudging the situation the entire time.

People would see that on a skateboard and just assume that it's supposed to be satan spelled backwards.....

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On 6/27/2020 at 9:28 PM, WarriorPoet said:

My take on the subject is that when someone says “Satan”, most of the time they should say “Lucifer”.  In my mind these are 2 very different characters in xian mythology.  Lucifer is “the fallen one”, “prince of darkness”, and “the devil”.  Satan is not a name so much as a title.  He is “the accuser”, basically they guy who plays the role of the prosecutor in god’s court.  There are biblical references that bear this out as well.  As was mentioned earlier, satan was in heaven, talking to god during the book of Job, but elsewhere the Bible says that Lucifer was cast out of heaven before creation.  

 

During my xian days, this explained part of the opening to the book of Genesis.  Lucifer translates basically as “light bringer”.  So after he was cast out, the first thing god needed to do was create light, since he had just expelled his previous light source.

 

 

 

It's tied up in astrotheological allegory. Associated with the planet Venus. Lucifer star of the morning is allegory about the planet Venus. It's bright in the morning and then gets blasted away by the light of the sun, later symbolized by Jesus. The 'fallen' bit comes from that line.

 

There are layers and depths to these myths, because there are layers and depth to the ancient mysteries and esosteric symbolism in general. Robert Price did speak about the Lucifer - Venus connection on an old episode of The Infidel Guy on youtube. But I can't find it. The myths get rolling and soon elaborate stories show up about a fallen angel cast down from heaven. And everything else that evolved over time and after the fact of not previously existing in the mythology from the outset. 

 

Christians did this to Isaiah with old "morning star" / "Lucifer" reference, just as they lifted the virgin birth prophecy, which, was not about a virgin and not addressed to anything hundreds of years later. Isaiah was referring to contemporary issues of his time. And christians tried to reinterpret old scriptures out of their original context and pretend as if the context was really referring to to far off, future events. One big game of make believe and pretend going on near the end of the 1st century and through the 2nd and 3rd centuries. 

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15 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

It was also the name of a pro skater in the 80's, which, is when I picked up on the reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natas_Kaupas

 

There was a panic of attempted censorship, when, the name was legit and wasn't even just some skater screwing around with a nickname that spelled satan backwards. It was his real birth name. The panic was 100% subjective opinion and all for naught. No matter how true is 'seemed' to everyone who was misjudging the situation the entire time. 

Mr. Kaupus capitalized on the scandal somewhat, as I recall.  

natasportraitchrome.jpg

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13 hours ago, WarriorPoet said:

During my xian days, this explained part of the opening to the book of Genesis.  Lucifer translates basically as “light bringer”.  So after he was cast out, the first thing god needed to do was create light, since he had just expelled his previous light source.

 

That is really interesting. I never heard that interpretation before.

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On 6/27/2020 at 6:28 PM, WarriorPoet said:

My take on the subject is that when someone says “Satan”, most of the time they should say “Lucifer”.  In my mind these are 2 very different characters in xian mythology.  Lucifer is “the fallen one”, “prince of darkness”, and “the devil”.  Satan is not a name so much as a title.  He is “the accuser”, basically they guy who plays the role of the prosecutor in god’s court.  There are biblical references that bear this out as well.  As was mentioned earlier, satan was in heaven, talking to god during the book of Job, but elsewhere the Bible says that Lucifer was cast out of heaven before creation.  

 

During my xian days, this explained part of the opening to the book of Genesis.  Lucifer translates basically as “light bringer”.  So after he was cast out, the first thing god needed to do was create light, since he had just expelled his previous light source.

 

 

Heylel, latinized as "Lucifer", was Isaiah's nickname for Nebuchadnezzar. 

 

Any entity who sincerely tried to overthrow a deity whom he knew to be omnipotent would have to be found not guilty by reason of insanity.

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I wonder if anybody has read "The Origin of Satan" by Elaine Pagels...

https://www.amazon.com/Origin-Satan-Christians-Demonized-Heretics-ebook/dp/B005O1BLU8/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

 

I have it but it hasn't risen to the top of my reading list yet...

 

image.png

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@TABA I listened to the audiobook, I was not a fan. It did not really address the evolution of Satan in Jewish/Christian history, it was more about these groups claiming anything that was outside of their orthodoxy as satanic or evil.

 

If I remember correctly, she kind of addressed it, but she kept going down what I considered irrelevant rabbit holes.

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On 6/28/2020 at 8:49 AM, Hierophant said:

 

That is really interesting. I never heard that interpretation before.

God Himself is light, therefore light is eternal. God created darkness & then He created a different source of light. IMO, He created darkness cuz He knew this planet would be a renegade planet that would need to be redeemed.

Darkness is the absence of light & it's scary.

 

 

Lucifer was a light bearer, He was a covering cherub who guarded God's law. His freedom of CHOICE led him to become the first malignant narcissist & he became Satan (adversary).

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1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

God Himself is light, therefore light is eternal. God created darkness & then He created a different source of light. IMO, He created darkness cuz He knew this planet would be a renegade planet that would need to be redeemed.

Darkness is the absence of light & it's scary.

 

 

Lucifer was a light bearer, He was a covering cherub who guarded God's law. His freedom of CHOICE led him to become the first malignant narcissist & he became Satan (adversary).

 

Cool story. Did you make that up or did someone else?

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1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

Lucifer

If god is omnipotent, then he created Lucifer knowing he would "rebel."  god alao created the other angels knowing that a third of them would follow Lucifer.  god went on to create hell "for the devil and his fallen angels."  god then created humans knowing that the vast majority of them would not believe in him for one reason or another and would also end up in hell with the devil and his fallen angels.  So, god knowingly and willingly set in motion a plan that would condemn untold billions of his "children" to eternal conscious torment. 

 

For somebody who knows everything, god sure is a dumbass.

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2 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

God Himself is light, therefore light is eternal. God created darkness & then He created a different source of light. IMO, He created darkness cuz He knew this planet would be a renegade planet that would need to be redeemed.

     God is light but not *that* light.  <wink wink>  Then he "created" darkness by what?  Making solids?  Oof.

 

2 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

Darkness is the absence of light & it's scary.

     Yep.  Blind people shake non-stop from the fear of the dark.  Their lives are so spooky.

 

2 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 

Lucifer was a light bearer, He was a covering cherub who guarded God's law. His freedom of CHOICE led him to become the first malignant narcissist & he became Satan (adversary).

     The King of Tyre was called a covering cherub.  Coincidence?  I think not.  It's clear he is actually satan.  Mystery solved.  Hopefully he makes a better satan than he did king.

 

          mwc

 

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Hello again Thumbelina.  :)

 

I'm thinking of asking Josh19 if there's any doctrinal or theological reason why a practising Seventh Day Adventist is required to keep their denomination secret?

 

If he says Yes and explains, then maybe we'll know why you won't answer our questions.

 

If he says No, then we'll know that you have another reason for keeping your denomination secret from us.

 

Of course, if you just answered the question, I wouldn't haven't approach Josh19 and ask him.

 

So, I'll ask you once more.

 

Are you a Seventh day Adventist, Thumbelina?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

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1 hour ago, florduh said:

 

Cool story. Did you make that up or did someone else?

Hi pops!

Eh, stop your feigned ignorance, you know the bible says God created darkness & God is light.

 

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12 minutes ago, Thumbelina said:

Hi pops!

Eh, stop your feigned ignorance, you know the bible says God created darkness & God is light.

 

So..... somebody else made it up.

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1 hour ago, mwc said:

     God is light but not *that* light.  <wink wink>  Then he "created" darkness by what?  Making solids?  Oof.

 

     Yep.  Blind people shake non-stop from the fear of the dark.  Their lives are so spooky.

 

     The King of Tyre was called a covering cherub.  Coincidence?  I think not.  It's clear he is actually satan.  Mystery solved.  Hopefully he makes a better satan than he did king.

 

          mwc

 

 

By cloaking Himself.

 

 

If left alone with no support it is scary. Just as people weren't meant to die, people weren't meant to be blind. God wants to restore life & sight (it's in the Word).

 

 

You're one of those lions who take certain figures of speech literally? 

God used king of Tyre as an example. The king of Tyre wasn't in Eden or a cherub etc. Jezebel is referenced in Revelation but she was from the OT, even today evil, manipulative women are referred to as Jezebel. Let the bible be its own interpreter.

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4 minutes ago, florduh said:

So..... somebody else made it up.

It's not made up, pops.

You have faith in nothing created us. You didn't witness nothing creating us so you're operating on faith too.

You believe history books by faith. I know you were a believer but the bible says faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word & you left. You think the bible is contradictory or tall tales. I don't see it that way so I feel sad when I see God misunderstood. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Thumbelina said:

Just as people weren't meant to die, people weren't meant to be blind.

I guess the all good omniscient omnipotent creator of everything good and bad God fucked up then.

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Just now, Thumbelina said:

You have faith in nothing created us.

That is not faith. You need another book, maybe a dictionary.

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