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4 minutes ago, florduh said:

That is not faith. You need another book, maybe a dictionary.

Are you agnostic?

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7 minutes ago, florduh said:

I guess the all good omniscient omnipotent creator of everything good and bad God fucked up then.

No,no no, created beings did that. God cursed this planet for mankind's sake. It's a probation to see if we want life or death.

God will get His multitude from the redeemed. Satan tried to thwart God's plan but God will have His children (the willing ones) with Him.

 

Pops, it's been nice mud wrestling with ya but shouldn't you act your age & give up mud wrestling :D?

Gotta run. Take care.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

Satan tried to thwart God's plan but God will have His children (the willing ones) with Him.

 

If I were up against an all-knowing, all-powerful being, I'm not sure such a being would even allow me to attempt to thwart his plans, much less if this supreme being has a desire. Seems a much less drastic step to simply let those of us go off to Sheol than an eternity of torture for failure to believe a specific way, from a specific collection of writings, that were written by a single tiny tribe and ceased being updated over 1,000 years ago.  I may be wrong though, and I'm fine with that, but you've got to bring something to the table beyond mere claims.

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10 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

Are you agnostic?

Does she realize the inconsiderate irony of this question?

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11 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

God cursed this planet for mankind's sake.

 

So he cursed his own creation just to see what would happen even though he already know everything that will happen? Sounds reasonable. Also sounds like an abusive relationship with an imaginary being.

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14 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 

By cloaking Himself.

     Funny.  That's not what that a covering cherub is though.  It's not one that is cloaked.  It would be one that covered, or perhaps guarded, the throne.

 

14 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

If left alone with no support it is scary. Just as people weren't meant to die, people weren't meant to be blind. God wants to restore life & sight (it's in the Word).

     Yep, just like all the animals that exist in full darkness their whole lives like in caves or in the oceans.  They just cannot thrive.  I suppose god didn't want that either.

 

14 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 

You're one of those lions who take certain figures of speech literally? 

God used king of Tyre as an example. The king of Tyre wasn't in Eden or a cherub etc. Jezebel is referenced in Revelation but she was from the OT, even today evil, manipulative women are referred to as Jezebel. Let the bible be its own interpreter.

     The bible said it was the King of Tyre.  It addresses previous and subsequent sections to others.  I'm not going to make special exception for this one entry.  The King of Tyre *was* in the Garden of Eden.  It's poetic.  He was in paradise, chosen among others by god, and he threw it all away.  It's very easy to understand.  Who's the one who is taking this literally here?  To say that this is simply a metaphor regarding the King of Tyre is an easy interpretation.  So, yes, the bible does interpret itself.  It's a simple set of books.

 

          mwc

 

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15 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

Are you agnostic?

 

So its ok for Thumbelina to ask Florduh what he is, but its not ok for any of us to ask her what she is?

 

Go figure.

 

 

Walter.

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23 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Arguing with a fence post!

 

I would like to be able to argue with her, Weezer.

 

But first Thumbelina needs to be honest with us about whether she's a Seventh Day Adventist or not.

 

Until then I'm stuck in question-asking mode.

 

 

Walter.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

God Himself is light, therefore light is eternal. God created darkness & then He created a different source of light. IMO, He created darkness cuz He knew this planet would be a renegade planet that would need to be redeemed.

Darkness is the absence of light & it's scary.

 

 

Lucifer was a light bearer, He was a covering cherub who guarded God's law. His freedom of CHOICE led him to become the first malignant narcissist & he became Satan (adversary).

 

I want to address what I find to be holes in this theory and I am going to address a more fundamental issue:

 

Everything in your statement is an assertion of fact, but it is nothing you could demonstrate to be true, this line of thinking is what I am going to address after I go over the theological topics you bring about.

 

It is strange that God would create darkness knowing this planet would need to be redeemed. Which means that God created an imperfect creation. A perfect being set out and deliberately created something that was planned to fail. Consider Satan, demons, humans, etc. God could easily have created beings that were incapable of actual sin, and by sin the typical definition of not measuring up to God's standards; therefore, God purposely built in some defect that would allow his created beings to fail. That sounds like he acted with an intent, or set us up, to fail. It was his intention that we fail.

 

There is an analogy I heard before, it is the same as someone planting and arming a nuclear device in the middle of a city, then later on diffuses the bomb expecting to receive praise for it. There would not have been a problem if the person never placed the bomb there to begin with.

 

In our God scenario, God easily could have avoided this whole mess if he simply made his beings with freewill that only operated within certain parameters, i.e., created beings had free choices that all fell within God's approval. If that was the not the case, then for what purpose would God make us inherently flawed knowing we had the capacity to sin? It seems self-defeating if God hates sin that much. If sin really bothered God, he simply could have removed that from the equation.

 

On to the real issue at hand, I have a fundamental disagreement with your methodology. You are using words like faith as an equivocation. Faith in your context in not the same definition you are trying to throw onto non-believers.

 

Faith, as used by believers, means believing without evidence. Accepting things as true which cannot be demonstrated to be true. You want to make it sound like you are on the same level as those who believe things that are founded on the principles of methodological naturalism. If someone says they believe in evolution or the Big Bang, it is not based on an assertion, it is based on all the observations, test, and modeling available to us. Scientific evidence is as objective as possible and peer reviewed to ensure as few errors as possible are allowed in. Methodological naturalism states that the most basic assumption we can make is that we perceive a world around us that we can interact with it; and this world can be investigated.

 

As a believer, the starting assumption is: I was told this was true by other people; I came across this book and it told me XYZ was true; or I have a feeling this is true. I disagree with those methods, because it is shown those methods lead to different conclusions. It is not a good way to know anything about the world around us. The ideas about God cannot be tested, therefore, they are merely assertions. The Bible is full of assertions which cannot be validated. So your method of knowing the truth is derived the same way as Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Sheiks, etc. Therefore, I reject your methodology because the method is flawed and does not objectively work. There is no way to separate the veracity of your claims from the claims of any other religion.

 

Also, any position I hold is always tentative. More information may come in that changes my mind, and I am okay with that. There are plenty of things I do not know, and I am okay with saying "I don't know" or "I have not learned enough about the subject to speak to it intelligently." For example, I am not well versed in cosmology so I am not going to debate it. It is outside of my realm. I will say that there are very intelligent people who work in that field who probably know what they are talking about. Do I just drink down what they say, no. I take it the theories they put forth are peered reviewed and subjected to rigorous critical analysis, therefore, if evidence points to a certain idea, for example, our universe is 14.5 billion years old, I know they didn't just pull that number out of their backside. There was a very strict and controlled way of getting to that number, it wasn't merely made up because a book written by some people a few thousand years said so.

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I will have to find it, but I ran across an interesting article on the development of Satan from entirely non-existent to a malevolent force almost on par with god.  The scope was broader and started with the discussion of El, the Canaanite equivalent of Zeus or Odin, - a name which ought to be familiar as El Shaddai or Elohim, the introduction of Yahweh, followed by the development of an antagonist who first really appears after Babylonian captivity where the jewish people were exposed to a Babylonian pantheon that included a malevolent opposite to their 'god most high'.

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17 minutes ago, Krowb said:

I will have to find it, but I ran across an interesting article on the development of Satan from entirely non-existent to a malevolent force almost on par with god.  The scope was broader and started with the discussion of El, the Canaanite equivalent of Zeus or Odin, - a name which ought to be familiar as El Shaddai or Elohim, the introduction of Yahweh, followed by the development of an antagonist who first really appears after Babylonian captivity where the jewish people were exposed to a Babylonian pantheon that included a malevolent opposite to their 'god most high'.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Birth-Satan-Tracing-Devils-Biblical/dp/1403969337

 

Check out that book. I have it and it goes over all of what you mentioned. Great read.

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6 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Does she realize the inconsiderate irony of this question?

 

1 hour ago, WalterP said:

 

So its ok for Thumbelina to ask Florduh what he is, but its not ok for any of us to ask her what she is?

 

Go figure.

 

 

Walter.

Like I said...

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44 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Birth-Satan-Tracing-Devils-Biblical/dp/1403969337

 

Check out that book. I have it and it goes over all of what you mentioned. Great read.


I'll be sure to have a look. Thanks!  I don't see to have a way to favorite your post anymore.  The button is gone.

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1 hour ago, Krowb said:


I'll be sure to have a look. Thanks!  I don't see to have a way to favorite your post anymore.  The button is gone.

You have to reach a certain number of posts for certain features to appear.  If I'm not mistaken, at 25 posts you will get the quote feature.  At 666 posts, the 75 virgins option becomes available.

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42 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You have to reach a certain number of posts for certain features to appear.  If I'm not mistaken, at 25 posts you will get the quote feature.  At 666 posts, the 75 virgins option becomes available.

 

lmao -

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22 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

It's not made up, pops.

You have faith in nothing created us. You didn't witness nothing creating us so you're operating on faith too.

You believe history books by faith. I know you were a believer but the bible says faith comes by hearing & hearing by the Word & you left. You think the bible is contradictory or tall tales. I don't see it that way so I feel sad when I see God misunderstood. 

 

 

 

Note this one's abysmal attempt to use rational thinking.  Atrophied parts of the brain can be repaired and improved.  All it takes is the will to do so and some hard work.

 

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13 hours ago, Weezer said:

Arguing with a fence post.

 

Thats offensive to all good fence posts everywhere!

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5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Thats offensive to all good fence posts everywhere!

So... You took a fence to it?  😎

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On 8/20/2020 at 6:56 PM, Thumbelina said:

You think the bible is contradictory or tall tales. I don't see it that way so I feel sad when I see God misunderstood. 

 

 

 

 

You dont see it that way because you failed to trace the doctrine throughout the bible. 

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8 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

 

You dont see it that way because you failed to trace the doctrine throughout the bible. 

 

H-h-h-headshot! 

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