The Simple and Truthful Plan

[Edgarcito]

Please explain how this simple plan is not truthful.

 

We are not omniscient, therefore it's impossible to always act accordingly that we ultimately benefit others.

In light of this, Jesus says know me, as I am one with God/Love....so that you might better act on others.

Thirdly, I'm prompting you with the right choice...because I'm not dead, I'm alive.

And lastly, when you fail to act correctly, there will be grace for you.

 

So isn't this what we really strive to do daily....say on a good day? 

Act with loving intent through faith because ultimately we don't know the exact answer?  Hoping we don't screw up their life by our stupidity?

[florduh]

14 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Please explain how this simple plan is not truthful.

 

Please explain how it IS true.

 

It seems some people can't act right unless they hand over the responsibility to some outside agent. I see it as a mental crutch that can prompt and motivate one to do what they already know is right. In practice we can see both those with religion and those without acting the fool sometimes.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1. There is suffering

2. Suffering comes from attachment and desire 

3. There is an end of suffering

4. The end of suffering is:

   a. right view

   b. right resolve

   c. right speech 

   d. right conduct

   e. right livelihood

   f. right effort 

   g. right mindfulness

   h. right meditation

 

Why is this simple plan not just as truthful?

[WarriorPoet]

19 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

In light of this, Jesus says know me, as I am one with God/Love....so that you might better act on others.

Thirdly, I'm prompting you with the right choice...because I'm not dead, I'm alive.

And lastly, when you fail to act correctly, there will be grace for you.

1.  How do we know Jesus said this?

2.  If we can know that he did say it, how can we know that he was being truthful?

 

[WalterP]

16 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Please explain how this simple plan is not truthful.

 

We are not omniscient, therefore it's impossible to always act accordingly that we ultimately benefit others.

In light of this, Jesus says know me, as I am one with God/Love....so that you might better act on others.

Thirdly, I'm prompting you with the right choice...because I'm not dead, I'm alive.

And lastly, when you fail to act correctly, there will be grace for you.

 

So isn't this what we really strive to do daily....say on a good day? 

Act with loving intent through faith because ultimately we don't know the exact answer?  Hoping we don't screw up their life by our stupidity?

 

Certainly.

 

For this simple plan to be objectively true, the conditions you set down have to objectively confirmed with evidence.

 

It's not enough for you to believe these things are true.

 

You have to demonstrate that they are objectively true, with evidence that can be tested, checked and examined.

 

Thomas had the right idea and Jesus honoured his request.

 

Unless we can do the same for all the conditions you set down, your simple plan cannot be declared to be true or truthful.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter. 

 

[WalterP]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Please explain how this simple plan is not truthful.

 

We are not omniscient, therefore it's impossible to always act accordingly that we ultimately benefit others.

In light of this, Jesus says know me, as I am one with God/Love....so that you might better act on others.

Thirdly, I'm prompting you with the right choice...because I'm not dead, I'm alive.

And lastly, when you fail to act correctly, there will be grace for you.

 

So isn't this what we really strive to do daily....say on a good day? 

Act with loving intent through faith because ultimately we don't know the exact answer?  Hoping we don't screw up their life by our stupidity?

 

Edgarcito,

 

When it comes to this simple plan, the prime flaw in your thinking is this.

 

You are confusing things which you subjectively believe to be true with things that are objectively true, whether you believe they are or not.

 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/burundis-president-died-from-covid-19-reports/1878252

 

Pierre Nkurunziza made the same error and paid the price for it.

 

He subjectively believed that god had cleared the covid-19 virus from Burundi's skies.

 

Things that are objectively real, like the covid-19 virus, don't care about anyone's subjective beliefs.

 

 

Please consider reassessing your thinking.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

[midniterider]

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Please explain how this simple plan is not truthful.

 

We are not omniscient, therefore it's impossible to always act accordingly that we ultimately benefit others.

In light of this, Jesus says know me, as I am one with God/Love....so that you might better act on others.

Thirdly, I'm prompting you with the right choice...because I'm not dead, I'm alive.

And lastly, when you fail to act correctly, there will be grace for you.

 

So isn't this what we really strive to do daily....say on a good day? 

Act with loving intent through faith because ultimately we don't know the exact answer?  Hoping we don't screw up their life by our stupidity?

 

Believers and non-believers both make mistakes so I think faith is irrelevant.

[Edgarcito]

15 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Believers and non-believers both make mistakes so I think faith is irrelevant.

We, or I, most of the time, act with faith that I am making the best choice for another.  Again, I can ONLY act with faith in that I have no idea how my actions will ultimately play out in another person's life.....and even though I act "factually".  Too many variables after the act to predict much imo.

 

Lol, maybe it is irrelevant but we still do it.....it's inescapable.

[WalterP]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

We, or I, most of the time, act with faith that I am making the best choice for another.  Again, I can ONLY act with faith in that I have no idea how my actions will ultimately play out in another person's life.....and even though I act "factually".  Too many variables after the act to predict much imo.

 

Lol, maybe it is irrelevant but we still do it.....it's inescapable.

 

That's quite a climb down, Edgarcito.

 

You began this thread writing about Jesus and god.

 

Yet what you've described above is something that anyone can do without invoking faith in Jesus or god.

 

So what happened to them and their role in their simple, truthful plan that you follow?

 

Why have you quietly dropped all mention of them and are now using the word faith in an entirely different way?

 

You wouldn't be shifting the goalposts in this thread, would you?

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

We, or I, most of the time, act with faith that I am making the best choice for another.  Again, I can ONLY act with faith in that I have no idea how my actions will ultimately play out in another person's life.....and even though I act "factually".  Too many variables after the act to predict much imo.

 

Lol, maybe it is irrelevant but we still do it.....it's inescapable.

 

To clarify: I might do something with the idea that I am making the best choice for them...if you call that acting with faith, sure, no problem there. Good people want to act in the best interest of others. 

 

What I meant though is that people may ask Jesus for the best course of action, and it ends up not being the best course of action. A couple told me once that they were 'called' to the ministry .... later on they said, "well we thought we were called to the ministry, but I guess not."

 

My question is has every prayerful decision you've made resulted in the right choice? Or did you have to undo something, change some decision, go a different direction from what your prayer had yielded?  

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

17 minutes ago, midniterider said:

My question is has every prayerful decision you've made resulted in the right choice? Or did you have to undo something, change some decision, go a different direction from what your prayer had yielded?  

Oh, don't even get me started on this subject. 

[WalterP]

23 hours ago, WalterP said:

 

Edgarcito,

 

When it comes to this simple plan, the prime flaw in your thinking is this.

 

You are confusing things which you subjectively believe to be true with things that are objectively true, whether you believe they are or not.

 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/burundis-president-died-from-covid-19-reports/1878252

 

Pierre Nkurunziza made the same error and paid the price for it.

 

He subjectively believed that god had cleared the covid-19 virus from Burundi's skies.

 

Things that are objectively real, like the covid-19 virus, don't care about anyone's subjective beliefs.

 

 

Please consider reassessing your thinking.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

Here's some more items for you to consider as you reassess your thinking, Edgarcito.

 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/virginia-pastor-dies-coronavirus

https://foxwilmington.com/local-news/former-pastor-musician-with-covid-19-dies-in-concord-n-c-hospital/

https://www.foxnews.com/us/nyc-pastor-dies-from-coronavirus-becoming-first-us-catholic-priest-to-succumb-to-diseases

https://www.abc12.com/content/news/Church-elders-son-dies-from-coronavirus-3-days-after-he-does-569237181.html

https://abc13.com/3-houston-church-goes-test-positive-for-covid-19-coronavirus-in-churches-holy-ghost-catholic/6194543/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52015969

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8335123/Cameroon-pastor-healed-coronavirus-sufferers-laying-hands-dies-Covid-19.html

https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/harold-hill-church-st-thomas-jso-priest-dies-of-coronavirus-1-6650258

https://www.derryjournal.com/health/derry-priest-dies-coronavirus-2548732

https://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/18408572.norbiton-priest-lost-coronavirus/

 

Subjective religious belief (faith) confers no benefits and changes nothing, when it comes to things that are objectively real.

 

Like the covid-19 virus.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[Edgarcito]

59 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

To clarify: I might do something with the idea that I am making the best choice for them...if you call that acting with faith, sure, no problem there. Good people want to act in the best interest of others. 

 

What I meant though is that people may ask Jesus for the best course of action, and it ends up not being the best course of action. A couple told me once that they were 'called' to the ministry .... later on they said, "well we thought we were called to the ministry, but I guess not."

 

My question is has every prayerful decision you've made resulted in the right choice? Or did you have to undo something, change some decision, go a different direction from what your prayer had yielded?  

 

 

My point is we have no way of knowing what the right choice is.  We would have to have an understanding of what was meant for our lives.  "Now this is eternal life, that you may know Jesus and God".  They had no reference point for what was successful and what was not. 

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, WalterP said:

 

That's quite a climb down, Edgarcito.

 

You began this thread writing about Jesus and god.

 

Yet what you've described above is something that anyone can do without invoking faith in Jesus or god.

 

So what happened to them and their role in their simple, truthful plan that you follow?

 

Why have you quietly dropped all mention of them and are now using the word faith in an entirely different way?

 

You wouldn't be shifting the goalposts in this thread, would you?

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, you're right....I need to decide how I want to continue this....thanks.

 

[florduh]

20 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

We would have to have an understanding of what was meant for our lives.

 

An assumption not in evidence.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, florduh said:

 

An assumption not in evidence.

 

 

Guess I'm not following you.  I don't see any objective evidence that suggests the universe's plan for Edgarcito is anything more than filling a space-time continuum block with his ugly mug....

Lol, is this what you conclude?

 

[florduh]

49 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Guess I'm not following you.  I don't see any objective evidence that suggests the universe's plan for Edgarcito is anything more than filling a space-time continuum block with his ugly mug....

Lol, is this what you conclude?

 

 

An assumption that a plan or purpose has originated from some outside source (a god, the universe) would need some evidence. First demonstrate that there is in fact a plan, then prove who/what came up with it and finally show us what that plan actually is. I know, it's a lot to ask when you're used to just making shit up unchallenged. 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

My point is we have no way of knowing what the right choice is. 

I disagree.  We can consider what the possible consequences of our choices might be; then base the decision upon this potential outcomes.  Usually, there is no right or wrong choice; only consequences that we either regret or accept.

[WalterP]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

My point is we have no way of knowing what the right choice is.  We would have to have an understanding of what was meant for our lives.  "Now this is eternal life, that you may know Jesus and God".  They had no reference point for what was successful and what was not. 

 

Not so, Edgarcito.

 

We can know what the wrong choices are and narrow down what the right choices must be on the basis of learning from our mistakes.

 

Or rather, we could learn if faith didn't get in the way.

 

Sadly, there are those who will always go with faith, even in if it kills them.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2152184/Serpent-handling-pastor-Mack-Wolford-dies--hours-hes-bitten-RATTLESNAKE.html

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/jamie-coots-snake-salvation-reality-star-dies-from-snake-bite

https://www.foxnews.com/us/man-dies-from-snake-bite-at-pentecostal-church-service-kentucky-sheriffs-office-says

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2004-04-15-0404150130-story.html

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-dec-13-mn-53450-story.html

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/4852961/rev-kale-saylor-dies/

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4kEaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=hyMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7136,1278581&dq=george-went-hensley+death&hl=en

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1346&dat=19820825&id=37QwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VfsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7034,2791294&hl=en

https://web.archive.org/web/20080803025928/http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fn%2Fa%2F2008%2F07%2F11%2Fnational%2Fa183128D08.DTL

 

And tragically, there are congregations who believe by faith that their faith-killed pastors made the right choices.

 

That these dead preachers are valid reference points for what is successful.

 

If dead people equal success, then Jim Jones must be the greatest success story in history.

 

918 successful choices, where their subjective beliefs made no difference to the objective fact of the cyanide's toxicity.

 

Mark 16 : 18

 

 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

 

 

Walter.

 

 

[midniterider]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

My point is we have no way of knowing what the right choice is.  We would have to have an understanding of what was meant for our lives.  "Now this is eternal life, that you may know Jesus and God".  They had no reference point for what was successful and what was not. 

 

Do you make decisions? Do you pray before each one? I guess my thinking is that God doesn't really have a plan for my life. And if he does but doesnt tell me what that plan is, then his plan don't mean diddly squat to me. Might as well call his plan 'random occurrence' if he isn't going to share that info. 

 

I like RNP's view: There is no right or wrong choice. We make a choice and have to live with the result. Walter also has some wisdom: We learn the right choice (or better choice) from our prior mistakes. 

 

When someone prays to Jesus for an answer I feel that the person creates his own answer and stamps Jesus' name on it. 

 

(Of course we disagree)

 

 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

On 6/30/2020 at 10:01 PM, midniterider said:

When someone prays to Jesus for an answer I feel that the person creates his own answer and stamps Jesus' name on it. 

 

The simplicity of the point is lost on so many people. 

[Edgarcito]

Rethinking....it makes sense to me that if I were a guiding God, knowing my creation didn't completely understand, that I would provide guidance and grace.  And across humanity, this is largely what we observe.  Certainly we could make a case through evolution....."survival means love and grace"....so the group continues to eat.  Good guess.

[midniterider]

58 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Rethinking....it makes sense to me that if I were a guiding God, knowing my creation didn't completely understand, that I would provide guidance and grace.  And across humanity, this is largely what we observe.  Certainly we could make a case through evolution....."survival means love and grace"....so the group continues to eat.  Good guess.

 

Do you have an example of God providing guidance? Or Grace? 

[WalterP]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Rethinking....it makes sense to me that if I were a guiding God, knowing my creation didn't completely understand, that I would provide guidance and grace.  And across humanity, this is largely what we observe.  Certainly we could make a case through evolution....."survival means love and grace"....so the group continues to eat.  Good guess.

 

Some points and questions for you, Edgarcito.

 

1.

If you were god it would be within your power to give your creation sufficient understanding to comprehend whatever you wanted them to understand.

 

2.

If you were god you'd have foreknown that leaving your creations short on understanding would cause them to reach false conclusions.

 

3.

So, why would you then threaten and ultimately punish your creations for reaching the false conclusions that you foreknew they would arrive at?

 

4.

What midniterider said.  Please cite examples.

 

5.

No. The survival of the fittest has nothing to do with grace.  The nearest evolution will get you to that is altruism and even that is hotly debated.  

https://www.nature.com/articles/news.2010.427

 

6.

Furthermore, evolution has no overarching plan, objective or goal.  It is simply a way that organisms react to their environments.  If you invoke evolution then you can't use it to argue for some kind of divine plan.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

it makes sense to me that if I were a guiding God, knowing my creation didn't completely understand, that I would provide guidance and grace. 

Yes; but god's ways are not man's ways.  Because he's mysterious and shit.