Jesus, the Jewish Messiah?

[Myrkhoos]

I have started listening to some rabbis and I am starting to see their point that Jesus DID not fulfill the critarea for the Jewish Messiah. I never read the OT, but they do present a very solid case. Anyone else think this or about this?

 

[Hierophant]

I have heard their arguments and I understand why they did not think Jesus fit the bill. While there were different schools of thought on who the messiah would be, it would seem the prevailing theme would be someone who would be a warrior-king that would reestablish the sovereignty of Israel. If you go back into the OT and look at some of the so-called proof text of Jesus being the messiah, they are seemingly always taken out of context. 

 

For example, Isaiah 7:14 is not talking about some future virgin-born messiah, Isaiah is speaking to King Ahaz (King of Judah) and gives him a pseudo-prophecy that a young woman (almah in Hebrew) will conceive of a child and before the child is able to decide on choosing good from evil, his enemies in the north (Aram and Israel) will be vanquished.

 

Christians later stated this prophecy applied to Jesus, but the original context would not lend that understanding, nor would any contemporary reading it understand that to be the case as far as I am concerned. Once you mention this, you will hear all sorts of replies, probably the favorite among apologists is the "double meaning" of prophecy. If you are not familiar with that, they will say that the OT was rife with dual prophecies that were for the time it was written and then whenever it fulfills their theological needs.

 

Dare I say it, but they unwittingly are stating the text has hidden meanings and only those will special knowledge and insight can understand. Hmmmm, where have I heard that before...secret knowledge, hidden meanings....oh yes, the gnostics ~ arch nemesis of orthodox Christianity.

[InamBerea]

The OT presents some seemingly contradictory descriptions of the Messiah. He is called a "Suffering Servant" by Isaiah, and one who will rule the nations with a "Rod of Iron" according to Daniel. After the resurrection, some of Jesus' disciples pulled him aside and asked "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (acts 1:6). Even some disciples thought he would rule the nations at that time. It's easy to look at some of the OT prophecies concerning the messiah and conclude Jesus did not fulfill them all. 

 

When Jesus was tempted in the Wilderness, Satan offered him all the Kingdoms of the world. Jesus rejected the offer. The plan of God is that Jesus would first be the suffering servant and make a way for mankind to first have a relationship with God. God's purpose is to draw people to himself by faith first, and then rule the nations with a Rod of Iron. 

 

You can see this played out in the life of King David. David was anointed king while still a shepherd, but before he became king he was rejected by the people and lived in caves in the wilderness for about 10yrs. This is when David wrote some of the psalms. During this time he gathered outcasts to himself. David was eventually accepted as King, and brought with him those who were formerly lowly and rejected.

 

When Jesus's ministry began, he went to the Synagogue in Nazareth and began to read from the prophet Isaiah: "...the Lord has annointed me to preach good news to the poor, set free those who are oppressed, proclaim the acceptable Year of the Lord,". In doing this, Jesus stopped in mid-sentence, rolled up the scroll and sat down. The part he left out was "and the day of Vengence of our God."  which is yet to come.

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

After years of trying to sort tnrough all that stuff, I prayed that God would help me find the truth.   Started studying the history of gods and religions, and finally decided they are all man made myths.  I invite you to do the same.

[Myrkhoos]

On 8/7/2020 at 8:55 PM, InamBerea said:

The OT presents some seemingly contradictory descriptions of the Messiah. He is called a "Suffering Servant" by Isaiah, and one who will rule the nations with a "Rod of Iron" according to Daniel. After the resurrection, some of Jesus' disciples pulled him aside and asked "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (acts 1:6). Even some disciples thought he would rule the nations at that time. It's easy to look at some of the OT prophecies concerning the messiah and conclude Jesus did not fulfill them all. 

 

When Jesus was tempted in the Wilderness, Satan offered him all the Kingdoms of the world. Jesus rejected the offer. The plan of God is that Jesus would first be the suffering servant and make a way for mankind to first have a relationship with God. God's purpose is to draw people to himself by faith first, and then rule the nations with a Rod of Iron. 

 

You can see this played out in the life of King David. David was anointed king while still a shepherd, but before he became king he was rejected by the people and lived in caves in the wilderness for about 10yrs. This is when David wrote some of the psalms. During this time he gathered outcasts to himself. David was eventually accepted as King, and brought with him those who were formerly lowly and rejected.

 

When Jesus's ministry began, he went to the Synagogue in Nazareth and began to read from the prophet Isaiah: "...the Lord has annointed me to preach good news to the poor, set free those who are oppressed, proclaim the acceptable Year of the Lord,". In doing this, Jesus stopped in mid-sentence, rolled up the scroll and sat down. The part he left out was "and the day of Vengence of our God."  which is yet to come.

 

Your explanation make less sense to me than the Jewish Rabbis I listened to.  I recommend listening to those rabbis. Tovia Singer is a good example, but you can find many on youtube nowadays. 

 

 

[InamBerea]

@Myrkhhoos - I grew up as Catholic, and was told much about the Bible that turned out not to be true. I didn't realize this until I began to read the Bible for myself. I'd encourage you to look critically at what *anyone* says about the Bible until you've read it for yourself. I'd be happy to respond to a specific verse you see as a problem. It would be best to provide the question in your own words.

[Joshpantera]

On 8/7/2020 at 1:55 PM, InamBerea said:

He is called a "Suffering Servant" by Isaiah, and one who will rule the nations with a "Rod of Iron" according to Daniel. After the resurrection, some of Jesus' disciples pulled him aside and asked "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (acts 1:6). Even some disciples thought he would rule the nations at that time. It's easy to look at some of the OT prophecies concerning the messiah and conclude Jesus did not fulfill them all. 

 

That's because none of these OT writers were ever talking about jesus. That's the biggest take away. It was christians going back into scripture after the fact claiming that Isaiah and others WERE talking about jesus. And those are very spurious claims when challenged. You obviously don't realize this right now. And lack in understanding how far the issue plays out. Having figured these things out, many of us have laid scripture bare and see it for it actually is now. Prior to understanding this, like you, we didn't see it for it actually is. 

 

10 hours ago, InamBerea said:

I grew up as Catholic, and was told much about the Bible that turned out not to be true. I didn't realize this until I began to read the Bible for myself. I'd encourage you to look critically at what *anyone* says about the Bible until you've read it for yourself. I'd be happy to respond to a specific verse you see as a problem. It would be best to provide the question in your own words.

 

You don't understand so much as the tip of the iceberg right now, compared to how much depth there is under the sea surface to understand about the bible. You've revealed that to us about yourself through these pious gestures. You don't have a clue where any of this is headed. Take my warning to heart. You don't know what you're getting yourself into and you'd better wade carefully lest you drown in it. 

[mwc]

On 8/7/2020 at 10:55 AM, InamBerea said:

The OT presents some seemingly contradictory descriptions of the Messiah. He is called a "Suffering Servant" by Isaiah, and one who will rule the nations with a "Rod of Iron" according to Daniel. After the resurrection, some of Jesus' disciples pulled him aside and asked "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (acts 1:6). Even some disciples thought he would rule the nations at that time. It's easy to look at some of the OT prophecies concerning the messiah and conclude Jesus did not fulfill them all. 

     I bet they did just this.  They asked their zombie leader what he was gonna do.  Did he say "argh grrrrrr" or just eat him some brains?

 

On 8/7/2020 at 10:55 AM, InamBerea said:

When Jesus was tempted in the Wilderness, Satan offered him all the Kingdoms of the world. Jesus rejected the offer. The plan of God is that Jesus would first be the suffering servant and make a way for mankind to first have a relationship with God. God's purpose is to draw people to himself by faith first, and then rule the nations with a Rod of Iron. 

     This sounds just awful.  Well, unless, you look forward to being ruled by someone with a "rod of iron."  Sounds pretty nice then I suppose.  Every day I think to myself "I sure wish I was ruled over with a rod of iron.  I have it way to easy.  I need something far more strict and intimidating in my life to make me feel really loved."  Just kidding.  I'm one of those idiots that think the old rod of iron is for everyone *but* me.  It'll keep all the other assholes in-line.  Guess I'm still sorta xian at heart?

 

On 8/7/2020 at 10:55 AM, InamBerea said:

You can see this played out in the life of King David. David was anointed king while still a shepherd, but before he became king he was rejected by the people and lived in caves in the wilderness for about 10yrs. This is when David wrote some of the psalms. During this time he gathered outcasts to himself. David was eventually accepted as King, and brought with him those who were formerly lowly and rejected.

     David was a good choice.  Saul made a sacrifice to god by himself (the horror) when the guy who was supposed to make it flaked on the time and the people were getting restless.  He also didn't kill off his own son when he made silly promises that he'd kill whoever ate during some battle.  And, probably worst of all, he just wouldn't commit genocide against those damn Amalekites and all their shit.  He was just a horrible person and deserved to lose the throne.  We needed someone much better like the always honorable David.  There's not a single bad thing that can be said of that guy unlike Saul's mountain of crimes against god and man.

 

On 8/7/2020 at 10:55 AM, InamBerea said:

When Jesus's ministry began, he went to the Synagogue in Nazareth and began to read from the prophet Isaiah: "...the Lord has annointed me to preach good news to the poor, set free those who are oppressed, proclaim the acceptable Year of the Lord,". In doing this, Jesus stopped in mid-sentence, rolled up the scroll and sat down. The part he left out was "and the day of Vengence of our God."  which is yet to come.

 

     Sounds legit.  He also didn't read the part about bringing comfort either.  I guess he just really didn't want to read the whole thing.  Services were shorter back then.

 

     I went ahead and read that passage, since you posted it, and apparently whoever reads it is the messiah.  So now I'm the messiah.  Is that not how it works?  He read it so it applied to him.  I read it so it applies to me, right?  I'm sure there's passages in the bible that speak to a guy who does nothing in particular.  That's me.  The messiah who doesn't really do anything in particular.  I'm doing it right now.  I'll continue to do that, fulfilling those prophecies, until I stop (no one knows when that will be but the father).  And then I'll return some day and do some badass stuff.  That's the sequel though.  I'm not going to do that now.  Don't ask.  Physician heal thyself and all that crap.  So I'm just going to hang out being all messiah over here but when I come back, and I will that's my personal guaranty to you, then I'll really bring my A-game.

 

          mwc