I found something EVERY atheist should see.

[LeiaBryant]

What do y'all think about this?

[florduh]

Almost to a person, the anti-theists are former members of one of the cults, primarily Christianity around here. It's a crucial difference.

 

Anti blacks have never been black and don't have any facts or experience to work with. Same for anti Jewish and Islam haters. Anti atheists have likely never even been atheist but rather spend their life in pervasive religious indoctrination that paints non believers as enemies. 

 

Again, anti-theists have been there, done that and understand the mindset and dangers posed by believers. Christian theology preaching Hell to children is child abuse. Even as an adult the doctrine causes sometimes irreparable damage. The concerted effort to rule a secular society by their religious dogma is anathema to most of us, yet they persist despite our Constitution. Granted, many who carry the believer label are not personally involved in trying to write our laws and their sect may not even emphasize eternal punishment. However, they add to the strength of the religious movement and they still expect everyone to respect their beliefs (not necessarily them, their beliefs) and often find opportunities to try to persuade others to join them in their superstition. A real world with ever escalating real problems needs clear heads and logical minds rather than magical thinking. Belief in gods and religions has caused, and continues to cause, the lion's share of strife in the world. Belief in gods at best does nothing to further our progress and at worst brings on human rights abuses, war and wanton destruction of our natural resources. One needn't look far to find reason to be anti-theist these days.

[Orbit]

I'm an atheist, but not a "blanket anti-theist". Theism has its good points (compassion, mercy, concern for the poor). Certain varieties of theism also have their bad points. Life is complicated.

[LeiaBryant]

3 hours ago, florduh said:

Almost to a person, the anti-theists are former members of one of the cults, primarily Christianity around here. It's a crucial difference.

 

Anti blacks have never been black and don't have any facts or experience to work with. Same for anti Jewish and Islam haters. Anti atheists have likely never even been atheist but rather spend their life in pervasive religious indoctrination that paints non believers as enemies. 

 

Again, anti-theists have been there, done that and understand the mindset and dangers posed by believers. Christian theology preaching Hell to children is child abuse. Even as an adult the doctrine causes sometimes irreparable damage. The concerted effort to rule a secular society by their religious dogma is anathema to most of us, yet they persist despite our Constitution. Granted, many who carry the believer label are not personally involved in trying to write our laws and their sect may not even emphasize eternal punishment. However, they add to the strength of the religious movement and they still expect everyone to respect their beliefs (not necessarily them, their beliefs) and often find opportunities to try to persuade others to join them in their superstition. A real world with ever escalating real problems needs clear heads and logical minds rather than magical thinking. Belief in gods and religions has caused, and continues to cause, the lion's share of strife in the world. Belief in gods at best does nothing to further our progress and at worst brings on human rights abuses, war and wanton destruction of our natural resources. One needn't look far to find reason to be anti-theist these days.

Please don't blame all religions for the Abrahamic religions.

[LeiaBryant]

3 hours ago, Orbit said:

I'm an atheist, but not a "blanket anti-theist". Theism has its good points (compassion, mercy, concern for the poor). Certain varieties of theism also have their bad points. Life is complicated.

Exactly!!!!

[mwc]

     Why did I need to see that?

 

     Polytheism, or paganism, used to be the order of the day.  Can you promise me that things will be different for atheists if it once again dominates?

 

          mwc

 

[florduh]

11 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

Please don't blame all religions for the Abrahamic religions.

 

One may certainly pretend there is a god yet refrain from doing all the horrible things we can attribute to Abrahamic religions. A problem still remains, though, when magical thinking trumps rational thinking and personal responsibility gets outsourced to imaginary beings. Real world issues such as disease have been and continue to be addressed by science; not prayers, spells, holy water and other such appeals to the nonexistent. One might think that by the 21st Century we would have had enough experience with reality that we would have outgrown superstitious beliefs, but sadly that's not the case. Continued belief in magic may not always cause immediate damage, depending on the specific belief, but all such belief contributes to and strengthens the general mindset of the world that the power to change things lies beyond human capability.

[LeiaBryant]

3 hours ago, mwc said:

     Why did I need to see that?

 

     Polytheism, or paganism, used to be the order of the day.  Can you promise me that things will be different for atheists if it once again dominates?

 

          mwc

 

You won't be proselytized to , I can promise that.

[LeiaBryant]

2 hours ago, florduh said:

 

One may certainly pretend there is a god yet refrain from doing all the horrible things we can attribute to Abrahamic religions. A problem still remains, though, when magical thinking trumps rational thinking and personal responsibility gets outsourced to imaginary beings. Real world issues such as disease have been and continue to be addressed by science; not prayers, spells, holy water and other such appeals to the nonexistent. One might think that by the 21st Century we would have had enough experience with reality that we would have outgrown superstitious beliefs, but sadly that's not the case. Continued belief in magic may not always cause immediate damage, depending on the specific belief, but all such belief contributes to and strengthens the general mindset of the world that the power to change things lies beyond human capability.

My belief comes from personal experience that is just as rational as your personal experience. Epistemologically you can prove your experience is better than mine or that you are not a brain in a vat .

[◊ Weezer ◊]

5 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

My belief comes from personal experience .

 

Have you ever considered that your personal experience may have led you to irrational beliefs and unconscious motivations.  Science and looking at evidence is an attempt to sort out what is rational and real.  Be glad you live in a society that allows you to follow your beliefs, as long as it doesn't harm others.

[florduh]

25 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

My belief comes from personal experience that is just as rational as your personal experience. Epistemologically you can prove your experience is better than mine or that you are not a brain in a vat .

 

By definition a perceived experience is neither rational nor irrational, only a conclusion drawn from such may be rational or not as rationality is in the realm of thinking, not feeling or experience. People have "personal experiences" with Bigfoot, Nessie, demons, shadow people, fairies and their dead grandma. What's your point?

[WalterP]

1 hour ago, LeiaBryant said:

My belief comes from personal experience that is just as rational as your personal experience. Epistemologically you can prove your experience is better than mine or that you are not a brain in a vat .

 

Hello Leia. 

 

 

Echoing Weezer's point, one of the major problems I have with beliefs based on personal experience is that of emotional involvement.

 

A person who is emotionally committed to a certain belief is unlikely to evaluate their personal experiences of it in a properly rational way.

 

Perhaps you could tell us how you evaluate your personal experiences in a rational way?

 

 

Please note that this is not a criticism aimed at you personally or your particular beliefs.

 

The problem highlighted is common to all belief systems that rely heavily on personal experience. 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[LeiaBryant]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

 

Have you ever considered that your personal experience may have led you to irrational beliefs and unconscious motivations.  Science and looking at evidence is an attempt to sort out what is rational and real.  Be glad you live in a society that allows you to follow your beliefs, as long as it doesn't harm others.

I believe that I am just as rational as you can we agree to that?

[LeiaBryant]

1 hour ago, florduh said:

 

By definition a perceived experience is neither rational nor irrational, only a conclusion drawn from such may be rational or not as rationality is in the realm of thinking, not feeling or experience. People have "personal experiences" with Bigfoot, Nessie, demons, shadow people, fairies and their dead grandma. What's your point?

Can we agree we are both equally rational and just disagree about the meaning of certain experiences?

 

[LeiaBryant]

4 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

Hello Leia. 

 

 

Echoing Weezer's point, one of the major problems I have with beliefs based on personal experience is that of emotional involvement.

 

A person who is emotionally committed to a certain belief is unlikely to evaluate their personal experiences of it in a properly rational way.

 

Perhaps you could tell us how you evaluate your personal experiences in a rational way?

 

 

Please note that this is not a criticism aimed at you personally or your particular beliefs.

 

The problem highlighted is common to all belief systems that rely heavily on personal experience. 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

I think I evaluate my experiences in a rational way . As a pragmatist I look to see if my expliantion works. If I do a magick spell and it manifest than that worked. How do you evaluate your personal experiences? Can we agree that I am equally as rational as you?

[florduh]

12 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

I think I evaluate my experiences in a rational way . As a pragmatist I look to see if my expliantion works. If I do a magick spell and it manifest than that worked. How do you evaluate your personal experiences? Can we agree that I am equally as rational as you?

 

It's like the Christian prayers we hear so much about. The efficacy of healing prayer has been thoroughly debunked many times, yet people still think their prayer (spell) made all the difference. Things happen for real reasons, not magical ones. Have you kept records of when the magic worked and when it didn't? Could things have turned out the way they did if you had done nothing? When you "will" heads in a coin flip then half the time you'll be successful and see that as further reason to believe in your powers. I, myself, am responsible for each nightfall because after I have my evening meal it soon starts to get dark - and it happens on a consistent basis so must be a rational conclusion. I am the Prince of Darkness. 

[LeiaBryant]

25 minutes ago, florduh said:

 

It's like the Christian prayers we hear so much about. The efficacy of healing prayer has been thoroughly debunked many times, yet people still think their prayer (spell) made all the difference. Things happen for real reasons, not magical ones. Have you kept records of when the magic worked and when it didn't? Could things have turned out the way they did if you had done nothing? When you "will" heads in a coin flip then half the time you'll be successful and see that as further reason to believe in your powers. I, myself, am responsible for each nightfall because after I have my evening meal it soon starts to get dark - and it happens on a consistent basis so must be a rational conclusion. I am the Prince of Darkness. 

I'm not asking you to believe in my magick just to accept I am inherently irrational or delusional.

[WalterP]

44 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

I think I evaluate my experiences in a rational way . As a pragmatist I look to see if my expliantion works. If I do a magick spell and it manifest than that worked. How do you evaluate your personal experiences? Can we agree that I am equally as rational as you?

 

 

Yes, we can agree that we as rational as each other, Leia.

 

But I am not satisfied with setting myself as my own standard.

 

I prefer a standard that is divorced from my emotions, my biases and my cognitive blind spots.

 

This is where science scores and personal evaluation of personal experience fails.

 

From beginning to end science is a system of understanding reality that, through communal effort, seeks to remove as much personal bias as possible.

 

This sets a standard of objectivity that no single person can hope to reach.

 

Which means that, even though we may be as rational as each other, neither of us on our own can be as rational and objective as we ought to be.

 

Science can reach that standard, but personal evaluation of the self cannot.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

[florduh]

13 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

39 minutes ago, florduh said:

 

It's like the Christian prayers we hear so much about. The efficacy of healing prayer has been thoroughly debunked many times, yet people still think their prayer (spell) made all the difference. Things happen for real reasons, not magical ones. Have you kept records of when the magic worked and when it didn't? Could things have turned out the way they did if you had done nothing? When you "will" heads in a coin flip then half the time you'll be successful and see that as further reason to believe in your powers. I, myself, am responsible for each nightfall because after I have my evening meal it soon starts to get dark - and it happens on a consistent basis so must be a rational conclusion. I am the Prince of Darkness. 

I'm not asking you to believe in my magick just to accept I am inherently irrational or delusional.

 

Is my claim rational? Is it any different than yours?

[LeiaBryant]

14 minutes ago, florduh said:

 

Is my claim rational? Is it any different than yours?

Your claim is UPG and I am skeptical about it. My claims are different because I have SPG and VPG in addition to UPG. If you want to know the difference between these acronyms watch this: 

 

[florduh]

1 hour ago, LeiaBryant said:

It's like the Christian prayers we hear so much about. The efficacy of healing prayer has been thoroughly debunked many times, yet people still think their prayer (spell) made all the difference. Things happen for real reasons, not magical ones. Have you kept records of when the magic worked and when it didn't? Could things have turned out the way they did if you had done nothing? When you "will" heads in a coin flip then half the time you'll be successful and see that as further reason to believe in your powers.

Again, can you answer the other questions posed?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

[LeiaBryant]

2 hours ago, florduh said:

Again, can you answer the other questions posed?

I recently started keeping records of my spells but I haven't got older ones to look through.

[LeiaBryant]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

But without more information we will never know who is right so until we know for sure let's agree to disagree and accept both claims as equally valid.

[florduh]

2 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

But without more information we will never know who is right so until we know for sure let's agree to disagree and accept both claims as equally valid.

 

No. Information is available if one wants to look.