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13 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

As I said, it's largely semantics. 

 

It doesn't have anything to do with pottery. I'm not sure what you're on about.

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On 8/7/2020 at 12:06 AM, Weezer said:

 

Thank you for your wise explanation!   I totally agree.  The negativity on this website bothers me at times, and the bickering sometimes reminds me of junior high school.

 

Thanks. And by page 6 we seem to have reached dead horse #2. 

 

The bickering has been going on forever, it can be odd at times. Sometimes you just have to laugh at it and move on. Someone once said that the forums are dominated by a bunch of grumpy old men. It's hard to argue with that analysis. Poor Leia is getting a fresh taste of it. With two dead horses now beaten to a bloody pulp!!!

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Now, who was it that brought up about being anti about being anti? If only we could find out. :P So much negativity about being anti something...

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Joshpantera said:
  On 8/7/2020 at 4:06 PM, Weezer said:

 

Thank you for your wise explanation!   I totally agree.  The negativity on this website bothers me at times, and the bickering sometimes reminds me of junior high school.

 

@Weezer Mate if we had nothing to bicker about this forum would be nearly dead! Imagine if we all agreed - we'd have no need to discuss anything because we'd already know what the other people thought.

 

I for one find this "bickering" (I don't think the correct term has been used here, but lets run with it) rather refreshing. I can discuss topics that I can't do in real life because my fundie family blow foofoo valves if I do. We also discuss a wide range, from magic voodoo, to gun control.

 

Leia know's where the safe space is for spirituality talk, but she obviously wanted to open a discussion with atheists about anti-theist positions (See the title). A discussion was asked for, a discussion was had. We also discussed the semantics of being anti being anti, and also horse meat. I don't see any issue??

 

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5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

I for one find this "bickering" (I don't think the correct term has been used here, but lets run with it) rather refreshing. I can discuss topics that I can't do in real life because my fundie family blow foofoo valves if I do. We also discuss a wide range, from magic voodoo, to gun control.

 

Leia know's where the safe space is for spirituality talk, but she obviously wanted to open a discussion with atheists about anti-theist positions (See the title). A discussion was asked for, a discussion was had. We also discussed the semantics of being anti being anti, and also horse meat. I don't see any issue??

 

 

 I googled 'horsemeat forum'. Nothing. You just can't get that anywhere else but here!

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4 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

 I googled 'horsemeat forum'. Nothing. You just can't get that anywhere else but here!

I'm pretty sure you can still get it at IKEA in certain parts of the world.

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I came here to help people go through de-conversion in a respectable manner.  But lately there seems to be very little de-conversion going on, and the discussions have taken on a different flavor.  Incessant arguing,  negativity and even disrespect seems to be increasing.  If someone comes lurking around thinking about de-conversion, would they feel like this is a safe place to come, or be scared off by the negativity?  Are we a support group for people going through a rough time?  Or what? 

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7 hours ago, Weezer said:

I came here to help people go through de-conversion in a respectable manner.  But lately there seems to be very little de-conversion going on, and the discussions have taken on a different flavor.  Incessant arguing,  negativity and even disrespect seems to be increasing.  If someone comes lurking around thinking about de-conversion, would they feel like this is a safe place to come, or be scared off by the negativity?  Are we a support group for people going through a rough time?  Or what? 

 

When I first came here, the ToT was 'open'. Anybody could just see it, and it was way more heated back then. These days things are mild by comparison. 

 

We are generally very supportive (as a forum) when someone introduces themselves and makes threads about problems they are having with religion we jump in and offer our support and advice.

 

Also we need to be careful about 'de-converting' people. We are not here to de-convert people per se. We are here to help others, whether they be just seeking help, or de-converting, or just wanting some conversation with fellow atheists. Note, no one here tries to 'de-convert' Leia from her current theism. We might disagree, we might ask for some evidence when a claim is made, but we don't say you should de-convert.

 

This topic is not a call for help, its basically a direct challenge to those among our members who may be anti-theist. It basically says "hey atheists I think you are wrong about something, watch this". I don't expect someone who is willing to put out a thread calling out atheists to then get upset when some of them counter back as to why they think the other person/people are wrong. And I don't expect "atheists" to have to take this, nod quietly and slink away without voicing their thoughts. Swings and roundabouts so to speak. Pro's and anti. And horse meat.

 

Like I said in another post, there is a safe space where you can talk about your gods and your theism and your spirituality, and that's the spirituality section. Generally the atheists stay out, or if they come on they are told off. (Notwithstanding that if you make a topic specifically telling atheists to watch something in that forum then said atheists are well within their right to respond.)

 

As a final word, sometimes in order to support someone it is better to respond in a way that they won't necessary like or agree with. None of us made it thus far in life by everyone constantly telling us what good boys and girls we are, and how we are right all the time. I had quite a harsh smack down in my first weeks here. When I re read the posts in which the exchange and smack down took place, and thought about it, I realized the smack down, though harsh, was warranted. To this day I'm grateful for having received it.

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10 hours ago, Weezer said:

I came here to help people go through de-conversion in a respectable manner.  But lately there seems to be very little de-conversion going on, and the discussions have taken on a different flavor.  Incessant arguing,  negativity and even disrespect seems to be increasing.  If someone comes lurking around thinking about de-conversion, would they feel like this is a safe place to come, or be scared off by the negativity?  Are we a support group for people going through a rough time?  Or what? 

There is an ebb and flow to this website, always has been.  A lot of different factors contribute to a variety of dynamics here: the individuals present at any given time, the political/social atmosphere, quarantine and the boredom that comes with it, et cetera.  Plus, we are a pretty contentious lot, anyway, after a lifetime of being told what to believe, how to think, who to associate with, and which words to say; most of us feel some degree of pissedness. 

 

Give it time, though,  and the ebb and flow will bring about a season of kinder, gentler ex-c.  It won't last; but the mountain top experience will give us ample time to survey the valley into which we're about to plunge. 

 

Also, keep in mind, this is not a public, communal website.  This is a personal, private website that webmdave created and has been kind enough to share with us all.  Any one of us is welcome to go create our own website, if we don't like this one.

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3 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

This topic is not a call for help, its basically a direct challenge to those among our members who may be anti-theist. It basically says "hey atheists I think you are wrong about something, watch this". I don't expect someone who is willing to put out a thread calling out atheists to then get upset when some of them counter back as to why they think the other person/people are wrong. And I don't expect "atheists" to have to take this, nod quietly and slink away without voicing their thoughts. Swings and roundabouts so to speak. Pro's and anti. And horse meat.

 

One of the only points to the anti-theism issue that seems valid enough, in my opinion, IS the point about getting too caught up in the negativity of opposing god belief. And of course being pro atheist doesn't have to mean getting too caught in the negativity of opposing god belief. We can be positive about our lack of god belief, uplifting about it. Because as far as I can tell, it's been a positive to those of us who have gone there. As in we're doing a lot better now lacking in god belief, than we were doing when we did believe in god. I didn't mean to get into splitting hairs over semantics. Just outlining a negative versus positive outlook concerning non-belief. 

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1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

One of the only points to the anti-theism issue that seems valid enough, in my opinion, IS the point about getting too caught up in the negativity of opposing god belief.

 

For reasons stated earlier I think all god belief has a negative impact on progress and responsibility. Other than that, America is currently in the midst of a concerted effort by a number of Christians to literally take over the government and legislate the general population in line with their particular interpretation of the Bible. This is a fight we can't afford to shrink away from for fear of being labeled, even by atheists, as "angry anti-theists who won't just live and let live." Since they have become a political force I consider them an enemy of freedom and our constitutional government. The widespread god belief is not benign as in that mindset even non-Christians tend to embrace, allow and excuse their sacred beliefs in the name of religious freedom.

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11 minutes ago, florduh said:

America is currently in the midst of a concerted effort by a number of Christians to literally take over the government and legislate the general population in line with their particular interpretation of the Bible.


What kind of potential legislation are you most concerned about?

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26 minutes ago, TABA said:


What kind of potential legislation are you most concerned about?

Oh, abortion, same sex marriage, school curriculum, adoption, access to healthcare for trans, housing, military service and all the things we read about every day now. https://www.salon.com/2020/03/03/trump-christian-right-power-worshippers-katherine-stewart/

 

 

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6 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

This topic is not a call for help, its basically a direct challenge to those among our members who may be anti-theist. It basically says "hey atheists I think you are wrong about something, watch this". I don't expect someone who is willing to put out a thread calling out atheists to then get upset when some of them counter back as to why they think the other person/people are wrong. And I don't expect "atheists" to have to take this, nod quietly and slink away without voicing their thoughts. Swings and roundabouts so to speak. Pro's and anti. And horse meat.

 

Like I said in another post, there is a safe space where you can talk about your gods and your theism and your spirituality, and that's the spirituality section. Generally the atheists stay out, or if they come on they are told off. (Notwithstanding that if you make a topic specifically telling atheists to watch something in that forum then said atheists are well within their right to respond.)

 

 

 

I agree. If you challenge a group , they have the right to respond (of course Christians have to stay in the Den and follow other rules). And you should not expect immunity for bad mouthing atheists in the spirituality section.

 

 

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2 hours ago, TABA said:

What kind of potential legislation are you most concerned about?

 

2 hours ago, florduh said:

Oh, abortion, same sex marriage, school curriculum, adoption, access to healthcare for trans, housing, military service and all the things we read about every day now.


Well, that’s a lot of “most”.   We must be reading different stuff. 
You listed abortion first.  On that subject, what do you fear will happen and how would it come to pass?

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5 hours ago, florduh said:

 

For reasons stated earlier I think all god belief has a negative impact on progress and responsibility. Other than that, America is currently in the midst of a concerted effort by a number of Christians to literally take over the government and legislate the general population in line with their particular interpretation of the Bible. This is a fight we can't afford to shrink away from for fear of being labeled, even by atheists, as "angry anti-theists who won't just live and let live." Since they have become a political force I consider them an enemy of freedom and our constitutional government. The widespread god belief is not benign as in that mindset even non-Christians tend to embrace, allow and excuse their sacred beliefs in the name of religious freedom.

 

I do agree that well meaning or otherwise, theistic belief has proven to have these negative impacts on progress and responsibility. I'm not too worried about the religious right, though. They've lost a lot of ground in these areas that I doubt they'll ever regain.

 

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Oh, abortion, same sex marriage, school curriculum, adoption, access to healthcare for trans, housing, military service and all the things we read about every day now. https://www.salon.com/2020/03/03/trump-christian-right-power-worshippers-katherine-stewart/

 

Unless people starting seeing the rabid, far left wing atheists as the bad guys and public opinion changes towards countering that lot. Which could well be the case come November. They like to claim socialism, they like to claim marxism, they like to claim militant views, and they like to riot and burn things down while threatening to wreck the current system. That, to me, looks like the possibility of losing ground to theistic belief and reversing the trend. Hopefully it won't actually pan out that way. But the potential has been rearing it's head. 

 

That's one of the reasons that I'm rethinking my anti-theistic aspect of atheism. The representation is horrible right now. I don't want to be associated with trying to force the closure of churches, for instance. That's flies in the face of personal liberty and freedom. I want a clean fight. And I want a fair handed fight. If we beat out theism for majority status, I want to do it based on the merit of our arguments, reasoning, and logical superiority. Not brute or political force and coercion. To which our opponents can claim martyrdom. I'm just altogether extremely unimpressed with the representation we're getting these days as secularists and non-theists in the media, social media, and everywhere else. 

 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

Not brute or political force and coercion.

No, of course not brute force. But there seems to be a disconnect with even those who are not theists and certainly not Christian. If you don't think the political arm of the religion is not making inroads into our daily lives you're not paying attention. The danger is there and it should be addressed whenever possible. Oppressive and dangerous religions get too many passes because of the general widespread belief in gods.

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I see politicians and others on the right trying to mobilize their base by claiming Christians in the US are facing persecution.

 

I see politicians and others on the left trying to mobilize their base by claiming our liberties are under threat from Christian theocracy.

 

I don’t see any real basis for either claim.  It’s almost as if these politicians have a vested interest in warning us that the sky will fall if The Other Guys win the election.  

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2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

If we beat out theism for majority status, I want to do it based on the merit of our arguments, reasoning, and logical superiority


Me too.  Unfortunately the merits of arguments, reasoning and logical superiority often lose out to wishful thinking. 
 

EDIT:  I do think we may well beat out theism eventually, but not because most people will be what you call Intellectual Atheists, Josh - people like you and me who have thought about and reject god beliefs.  I think most people will be de-facto atheists though, as indoctrination of children into theism becomes less prevalent.  But it’s always better when people know why they believe - or don’t believe.  

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1 hour ago, TABA said:

Me too.  Unfortunately the merits of arguments, reasoning and logical security often lose out to wishful thinking. 
 

EDIT:  I do think we may well beat out theism eventually, but not because most people will be what you call Intellectual Atheists, Josh - people like you and me who have thought about and reject god beliefs.  I think most people will be de-facto atheists though, as indoctrination of children into theism becomes less prevalent.  But it’s always better when people know why they believe - or don’t believe.  

 

I agree with this. In effect we will see a cohort effect where as people just become less religious their offspring are less religious. This is already happening in most parts of the Western world, and even to a small extent in the US. The US is behind on the rate of the cohort effect by about 50 years based on UK vs US data.

 

We can see, even on this site, that sound reasoning and logical argument is often not enough to persuade people. It works for some, but not for others, and the reasons for being an Ex-Christian are many and varied. 

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4 hours ago, florduh said:

No, of course not brute force. But there seems to be a disconnect with even those who are not theists and certainly not Christian. If you don't think the political arm of the religion is not making inroads into our daily lives you're not paying attention. The danger is there and it should be addressed whenever possible. Oppressive and dangerous religions get too many passes because of the general widespread belief in gods.

 

I'm always up for kicking some ass around, as long as we're sticking to the facts and taking the high ground in terms of objectivity. Down here in day to day life I try and address them with their own medicine. The conservatives are supposed to be for the constitution and individual rights. So I hold them to it. I'll say things like, "well, America was never meant to be a theocracy..." Or shoot back with, "freedom of religion does entail that no one religion be forced on everyone, you know..." 

 

Our being associated with communism, marxism, socialism and other leftist idealistic failures of the past as secularist's and non-theists, does tend to put a huge damper on getting some of these valid points across to people who may otherwise be open to hearing them out. And I'm working out ways of dealing with the problem when I have to go there. If I'm arguing for freedom of beliefs and non-belief, I think I will stick to what I'm for and not focus so much on what that by extension means that I am against.

 

I'm for objectivity, historical accuracy, academic understanding, intellectual honesty, mainstream scientific knowledge, comparative understanding of world mythology and religion, comparative understanding of esotericism, and so on. By being for all of these things, I have made a clean sweep of anything that I would have been against looking at it from another perspective. Focusing on what I do want to see, rather than focusing on what I do not want to see. And in doing so probably doing away with claiming anti-theism altogether.

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4 hours ago, TABA said:


Me too.  Unfortunately the merits of arguments, reasoning and logical superiority often lose out to wishful thinking. 
 

EDIT:  I do think we may well beat out theism eventually, but not because most people will be what you call Intellectual Atheists, Josh - people like you and me who have thought about and reject god beliefs.  I think most people will be de-facto atheists though, as indoctrination of children into theism becomes less prevalent.  But it’s always better when people know why they believe - or don’t believe.  

 

Yeah, I think that's where we at least have been headed. Large scale society will never be majority intellectual anything, as far as I can tell. When you get into personalities and how people are wired, the intellectual personalities are a very small minority on earth. That's not likely to change. That's probably not possible to change. But your "de-facto" atheist assessment is realistic. If that does happen, then it likely won't matter a whole lot if they know the details because religious proselytizers will have faded way, way out by that time through the same said process. 

 

 

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On 8/9/2020 at 10:54 AM, florduh said:

 

For reasons stated earlier I think all god belief has a negative impact on progress and responsibility. Other than that, America is currently in the midst of a concerted effort by a number of Christians to literally take over the government and legislate the general population in line with their particular interpretation of the Bible. This is a fight we can't afford to shrink away from for fear of being labeled, even by atheists, as "angry anti-theists who won't just live and let live." Since they have become a political force I consider them an enemy of freedom and our constitutional government. The widespread god belief is not benign as in that mindset even non-Christians tend to embrace, allow and excuse their sacred beliefs in the name of religious freedom.

My primary point is does a difference between fighting for pluralism  versus fighting for secularism . I think one is better than the other I think pluralism is better than secularism

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     I'm also anti-leprechaunism.  I have to disclose here that I do enjoy Lucky Charms and eat them regularly but I do not engage in the belief of leprechauns.  I feel people have wasted enough time looking for pots of gold at the end of rainbows or setting leprechaun traps in hopes in gaining their treasure.  Sure, it's not a problem now, but if (once?) it becomes the mainstream belief then we'll all be expected to engage in this activity (as well as all the other leprechaun related things commonly known only to the leprechaunist community now).

 

     Now, having said all that I will reconsider my position if and when a leprechaun along with its pot of gold are discovered.

 

          mwc

 

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4 hours ago, mwc said:

     I'm also anti-leprechaunism.  I have to disclose here that I do enjoy Lucky Charms and eat them regularly but I do not engage in the belief of leprechauns.  I feel people have wasted enough time looking for pots of gold at the end of rainbows or setting leprechaun traps in hopes in gaining their treasure.  Sure, it's not a problem now, but if (once?) it becomes the mainstream belief then we'll all be expected to engage in this activity (as well as all the other leprechaun related things commonly known only to the leprechaunist community now).

 

     Now, having said all that I will reconsider my position if and when a leprechaun along with its pot of gold are discovered.

 

          mwc

 

I have no problem with someone believe in leprechauns if they want to as long as you're not forcing it on anyone else or harming anyone what's the problem? can we have a pluralistic society instead of a secular one why is that bad? also just so you know some of my magick does involve the Fae,  fairies. I believe in fairies just as much as Christians believe in angels, and technically leprechauns would qualify as a type of Fae though I've never done any spells involving them.

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8 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

I have no problem with someone believe in leprechauns if they want to as long as you're not forcing it on anyone else or harming anyone what's the problem? can we have a pluralistic society instead of a secular one why is that bad? also just so you know some of my magick does involve the Fae,  fairies. I believe in fairies just as much as Christians believe in angels, and technically leprechauns would qualify as a type of Fae though I've never done any spells involving them.

     I'm sure you don't have a problem with it.  I imagine you can whip up a spell with Big Foot or the Lochness Monster too.  They probably qualify as some sort of doo-dad.

 

     I've had the pleasure of hearing about folks casting spells here for some time.  I recall one in particular.  Perhaps they will to?  Anyone recall "pink roller-skates?"  It had a nice one year time limit on that spell.  I've not heard a peep.  I guess the secret powers of time and space couldn't conjure up a pair of these elusive items or manage to pull some out of retirement from the back of a closet.  Even when it comes to coincidence the whole thing treads on thin ice as much as any other sort of magical thinking does.  It only leads the one doing to magical thinking to convince themselves that they can assert control over the world by misinterpreting coincidence as intent.

 

     The only reason I cannot come straight out to call it absolutely, positively, in every way a lie is that there's no way in the world to either prove or disprove it.  It's untouchable like all religions.  So I have to take a weak position on it and lay it on the believers to come up with any sort of way to demonstrate that it actually works.  It may sound like I would be against that but I would actually welcome such evidence.

 

          mwc

 

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