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If I dont like Westboro Baptist Church does that mean I dont like their deity (anti-theistic)? Or I dont like the doctrine of hate presented by the members of that church? And maybe dont like the members themselves? 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism#:~:text=Antitheism%2C sometimes spelled anti-theism,the belief in any deity.

 

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20 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

I think BITE model cults are harmful and normal religion is not.  We need experts on cults to help figure out the specifics and excult members are the first group to look to for expertize in this area . Also I put all forms of theism to be as an equal to atheism . I don't think you're necessarily inherently better than people who are theists or worse than them. so I want a pluralistic society where everyone is treated equally and there's no favoritism towards a particular flavor of theism or toward secularism. Edit: note some types of Christianity are not harmful but others are. For example you don't see Unitarians shooting up abortion clinics now do you.

 

Leia,

 

I'm afraid I just don't see that these experts and ex-cultists would be at all likely to help you achieve your aim of theistic equality.

 

As far as I'm aware they don't want very much to do any kind of theism, let alone work to equalise the status of disparate and often opposed theisms.

 

The expert and ex-cultist who comes most readily to my mind is Michael Shermer.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shermer

 

He spends most of his time debunking magical thinking and promoting rationality and reason.

 

Much like some of the experts, ex-cultists and Ex-Christians in this forum.

 

Quite why they would want to be involved in a plan to equalise all theistic belief systems is beyond me.

 

If I'm any judge they'd probably be happier to see all theistic beliefs equally... extinct.

 

As I do.

 

 

So, in the face of my confusion Leia, could you please explain to me why you think these experts and ex-cultists would help you achieve your goal?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

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10 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Good God... that was worse than I expected it to be.

 

First you failed to define secularism, but at least you've stated what your understanding of it is... or lack of understanding.

 

So help my poor atheist brain here. How would a principle that states that no one religion is to be given state predominance over another be an atheist hegemony? 

 

That makes as much sense as me saying a circle would be a blue square. Um.. excuse my ignorance... but how?

 

 

Yeah, no not really. That's more a shorthand version of secularism, but even then its not correct.

 

There are many thoughts of pluralism ranging from political to religious. You seem to be close to a religious one, but it's not that its about equal treatment, but the acceptance that all religious viewpoints and pathways are equally valid. (Per Wikipedia)

 

However this view cannot be correct to my mind. Christianity cannot be as equally valid as a pagan belief as it is opposed to the point that they are mutually exclusive. You, yourself don't hold this view because you've stated your fervent opposition to particular religions. Ipso facto you don't hold that all religions should be treated equally, therefore you don't actually want a puristic society as you stated earlier. (If you did you wouldn't be casting spells on certain religious buildings.)

 

What you want is a society that has your approved religions. And here we are back to you being anti-theistic towards at least some religions.

I'm not anti- theistic just anti-harm. Removing religion from everything looks like atheist hegemony from my point of view. I said all religions should be treated equally, cults and religions are different. Just like there is a difference between anti- harm and selective anti-theism . You conflating the two sounds disingenuous at best.

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25 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

Leia,

 

I'm afraid I just don't see that these experts and ex-cultists would be at all likely to help you achieve your aim of theistic equality.

 

As far as I'm aware they don't want very much to do any kind of theism, let alone work to equalise the status of disparate and often opposed theisms.

 

The expert and ex-cultist who comes most readily to my mind is Michael Shermer.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shermer

 

He spends most of his time debunking magical thinking and promoting rationality and reason.

 

Much like some of the experts, ex-cultists and Ex-Christians in this forum.

 

Quite why they would want to be involved in a plan to equalise all theistic belief systems is beyond me.

 

If I'm any judge they'd probably be happier to see all theistic beliefs equally... extinct.

 

As I do.

 

 

So, in the face of my confusion Leia, could you please explain to me why you think these experts and ex-cultists would help you achieve your goal?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

Anti harm is different than anti-theism. I am looking for anti-harm allies not anti-theist. 

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23 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

Leia,

 

I'm afraid I just don't see that these experts and ex-cultists would be at all likely to help you achieve your aim of theistic equality.

 

As far as I'm aware they don't want very much to do any kind of theism, let alone work to equalise the status of disparate and often opposed theisms.

 

The expert and ex-cultist who comes most readily to my mind is Michael Shermer.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shermer

 

He spends most of his time debunking magical thinking and promoting rationality and reason.

 

Much like some of the experts, ex-cultists and Ex-Christians in this forum.

 

Quite why they would want to be involved in a plan to equalise all theistic belief systems is beyond me.

 

If I'm any judge they'd probably be happier to see all theistic beliefs equally... extinct.

 

As I do.

 

 

So, in the face of my confusion Leia, could you please explain to me why you think these experts and ex-cultists would help you achieve your goal?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

I agree. People come here to get away from Christianity. That quite often takes the form of atheism, maybe less so, agnosticism. And somewhat rarely, some other theism. People who are interested in supporting deconversion aren't generally interested in waving a banner for religious equality.

 

Any group who passes around a collection plate or has some cookie-cutter plan for my life is suspect and I will avoid them. 

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18 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

Anti harm is different than anti-theism. I am looking for anti-harm allies not anti-theist. 

 

22 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

I'm not anti- theistic just anti-harm. Removing religion from everything looks like atheist hegemony from my point of view.

 

How does this relate to secularism? Secularism isn't the removal of religion, its ensuring that religious and state matters are separate and no one religion has special treatment by the state. This is why your argument makes no sense. 

 

22 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

I said all religions should be treated equally, cults and religions are different.

 

Having come from close to a cult I can assure you they think that they have religion. They worship their deity and have religious beliefs. Its just that society determines that those beliefs and behaviors differ from the norm and call it a cult. 

 

22 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

Just like there is a difference between anti- harm and selective anti-theism . You conflating the two sounds disingenuous at best.

 

I'm not conflating the two. I'm pointing out some of the inconsistencies in your position. However I don't think we are getting anywhere. 

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38 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

Anti harm is different than anti-theism. I am looking for anti-harm allies not anti-theist. 

 

Define "anti-harm" because all religions are based on a good deal of emotion and "belief" in fiction and fairy-tales. This harms the participant, daily, as they make choices and sacrifices based on disinformation. This disinformation is not brought on by accident or mistakenly evaluating observations. It is intentionally placed there by those who wish to deceive.

 

FYI: I practice religious equality each and every day. I regard them all as just how I defined them above and have no use for them.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

Anti harm is different than anti-theism. I am looking for anti-harm allies not anti-theist. 

 

Yes, but these experts and ex-cultists (and many Ex-christians in this forum) do not share your definition of what constitutes harm, Leia.

 

As far these people are concerned ALL theistic beliefs perpetrate some degree of harm.

 

The experts you want to help you usually regard ALL magical and supernatural thinking as harmful.

 

 

Why should you receive any help from people who don't agree with your definitions and who have no interest in your aims?

 

Can you please explain that to me?

 

 

Walter.

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34 minutes ago, WalterP said:

Yes, but these experts and ex-cultists (and many Ex-christians in this forum) do not share your definition of what constitutes harm, Leia.

 

 

This is exactly the problem. 

 

It's fine to narrow the focus to those who, in your opinion, do the most harm. I think we need to realize that such cults can only exist because of the general atmosphere of magical thinking and imaginary gods that make it seem "reasonable" to many. IOW, "I know that god(s) are real and that prayer (spells) actually work, so just maybe these guys got it right."

 

A rational, sane society grounded in science, facts and critical thinking tends to limit the growth of cults. Just look at the statistics contrasting superstitious America with some other industrialized nations who have larger atheist populations. Christianity finds a stronghold here because Americans are trained from birth to believe in crazy shit.

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1 hour ago, WalterP said:

Anti harm is different than anti-theism. I am looking for anti-harm allies not anti-theist. 

 

You do have allies where opposition to fundamentalist christians are concerned. It's just that it can come from different perspectives, either negative or positive minded directions. But the allies in opposition are there. I can't imagine anyone here happy to sit back leave these fundies unaddressed, or not debunked. 

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6 hours ago, midniterider said:

If I dont like Westboro Baptist Church does that mean I dont like their deity (anti-theistic)? Or I dont like the doctrine of hate presented by the members of that church? And maybe dont like the members themselves? 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism#:~:text=Antitheism%2C sometimes spelled anti-theism,the belief in any deity.

 

 

Their doctrine of hate as you call it comes from their deity. They believe that doctrine because they believe their deity has decreed that certain peoples should burn in hell etc.

 

I find it hard to imagine how you can not like a doctrine but then simultaneously not be against the God from whom the doctrine supposedly comes. Let us remember these people are just as convinced in their deity as Leia is in hers. 

 

I don't mind the jesus is love deity or their doctines but I detest the love Jesus or got to hell deity and doctrine. 

 

See what I'm getting at here?

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A rational, sane society grounded in science, facts and critical thinking tends to limit the growth of cults. Just look at the statistics contrasting superstitious America with some other industrialized nations who have larger atheist populations. Christianity finds a stronghold here because Americans are trained from birth to believe in crazy shit.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

To add to Florduh's second paragraph...

 

I have been consistently amazed and flabbergasted at the slow-motion train wreck that is the American response to the Covid-19 crisis.  As Dr. Fauci recently pointed out, most European nations achieved a lock-down figure of 95%, compared to the 50% of the US.  Ok, a lot of the resistance to sensible anti-virus measures is politically motivated, but a good portion of it also stems from science denial, magical thinking and religious indoctrination. 

 

Or as was succinctly described above -  from the crazy shit Americans are steeped in from birth.

 

What really worries me is that back in 1919, when Spanish flu hit the US in three waves, nobody knew what a virus was.  The authorities did their best, but they were up against an invisible killer they couldn't understand and couldn't get to grips with.  Fast forward a century and America has no such excuse.  A rational, sane society grounded in science, facts and critical thinking should have been able to meet Covid-19 head on, keeping the death rates, the hospitalisations and the rates of transmission down to the European levels.  But that didn't and isn't happening.

 

So WTF is the US going to do when (not if) another, more virulent pandemic sweeps the world?

 

Pray?  Lay on hands?  Anoint the sick with holy oil?  Rebuke the disease in Jesus' name?  Cast a spell?  Call upon a pagan deity?   Perform a ritual?  Burn a candle?

 

It's ALL magical and in the face of a deadly disease it's ALL harmful.

 

 

 

Walter.

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4 hours ago, WalterP said:

 

Yes, but these experts and ex-cultists (and many Ex-christians in this forum) do not share your definition of what constitutes harm, Leia.

 

As far these people are concerned ALL theistic beliefs perpetrate some degree of harm.

 

The experts you want to help you usually regard ALL magical and supernatural thinking as harmful.

 

 

Why should you receive any help from people who don't agree with your definitions and who have no interest in your aims?

 

Can you please explain that to me?

 

 

Walter.

Not all religions are harmful!!!! Stop conflating anti-harm with anti-theism

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1 hour ago, WalterP said:

A rational, sane society grounded in science, facts and critical thinking tends to limit the growth of cults. Just look at the statistics contrasting superstitious America with some other industrialized nations who have larger atheist populations. Christianity finds a stronghold here because Americans are trained from birth to believe in crazy shit.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

To add to Florduh's second paragraph...

 

I have been consistently amazed and flabbergasted at the slow-motion train wreck that is the American response to the Covid-19 crisis.  As Dr. Fauci recently pointed out, most European nations achieved a lock-down figure of 95%, compared to the 50% of the US.  Ok, a lot of the resistance to sensible anti-virus measures is politically motivated, but a good portion of it also stems from science denial, magical thinking and religious indoctrination. 

 

Or as was succinctly described above -  from the crazy shit Americans are steeped in from birth.

 

What really worries me is that back in 1919, when Spanish flu hit the US in three waves, nobody knew what a virus was.  The authorities did their best, but they were up against an invisible killer they couldn't understand and couldn't get to grips with.  Fast forward a century and America has no such excuse.  A rational, sane society grounded in science, facts and critical thinking should have been able to meet Covid-19 head on, keeping the death rates, the hospitalisations and the rates of transmission down to the European levels.  But that didn't and isn't happening.

 

So WTF is the US going to do when (not if) another, more virulent pandemic sweeps the world?

 

Pray?  Lay on hands?  Anoint the sick with holy oil?  Rebuke the disease in Jesus' name?  Cast a spell?  Call upon a pagan deity?   Perform a ritual?  Burn a candle?

 

It's ALL magical and in the face of a deadly disease it's ALL harmful.

 

 

 

Walter.

NOT ALL RELIGIONS ARE HARMFUL! I'm done

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8 minutes ago, LeiaBryant said:

Not all religions are harmful!!!! Stop conflating anti-harm with anti-theism

 

Two questions:

 

1)  Could you please identify the religions which are not harmful?

 

2)  Is there any aspect of your religion which is harmful?

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3 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Their doctrine of hate as you call it comes from their deity. They believe that doctrine because they believe their deity has decreed that certain peoples should burn in hell etc.

 

Ah, I see what you're talking about. That makes sense. 

 

Quote

 

I find it hard to imagine how you can not like a doctrine but then simultaneously not be against the God from whom the doctrine supposedly comes. Let us remember these people are just as convinced in their deity as Leia is in hers. 

 

I was looking at it from a different angle. My thought was that (my hypothetical) God doesn't really hate homosexuals, yet is the same God as the one the Westboro people worship...and those Westboro people are just morons with an incorrect idea about their god. Really, that was my thought.   I'm not claiming there is a real God. It's a hypothetical scenario, in my mind. 

 

Quote

 

I don't mind the jesus is love deity or their doctines but I detest the love Jesus or got to hell deity and doctrine. 

 

See what I'm getting at here?

 

I see what you're getting at. What you said makes sense. I dont like mean Jesus doctrine either. It pushed me to deconversion. 

 

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6 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

Not all religions are harmful!!!! Stop conflating anti-harm with anti-theism

 

I asked you a perfectly reasonable question, Leia.

 

I see that you ignored it.

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6 hours ago, LeiaBryant said:

NOT ALL RELIGIONS ARE HARMFUL! I'm done

 

Then please explain which religion can effectively combat Covid-19, without causing harm.

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"My religion good, other religion bad."

 

That's another thing besides gullibility and superstition they have in common.

 

 

 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war#:~:text=According to the Encyclopedia of,religion as their primary cause.

 

..........

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence

 

See heading Secular Violence

 

.........

 

Non-religious violence death count for the worst war ever https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#:~:text=World War II was the,2.3 billion). WW2 death count, about 70-85 million.

 

 

 

...............

 

Religious violence: The Crusades, About a million. https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/08/the-death-toll-comparison-breakdown.html   this link is kind of fun . lol. 

 

The Inquisition: Some articles say 30-300k, Another says 44k...it's iffy. 

 

 

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     Is this the sort of shit what this thread is about? (an old article but I thought it was relevant here) :

 

Swaziland bans witches from flying about 150 meters on broomsticks

 

     To me this is what it looks like when two groups of magical thinkers collide.

 

          mwc

 

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10 minutes ago, midniterider said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

 

Fun to read article.

 

 

 

From the article..

"whereby those seeking social success generally had to profess atheism and to stay away from houses of worship; this trend became especially militant during the middle of the Stalinist era which lasted from 1929 to 1939."

 

So, anti-religious states can be just as over-bearing as religious states. Something to keep in mind when publicly promoting one's philosophy. 

 

I have long held that it is not healthy or beneficial for any single entity to gain power  beyond a certain point. Not sure what that point is but we all know that Hitler was elected with only  17% of the popular vote.

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