Pretty good grasp of this christianity thing

[◊ Krowb ◊]

Longer than intended, but covers the subject well.

 

This has been a hard thing and I can't really tell anyone because in my part of the country, it will professionally destroy you to not be Christian.  I mean sure, the foreigners can worship their false gods, but as a native Southerner, you better be Christian - type doesn't matter so much, just as long as not mormon or jehovah's witness (those are cults after all).  Catholics are a bit dicey, but they're probably going to heaven so long as they actually believe in Jesus, though the whole "Mary worship" is nonsense.

 

Grew up a dutiful Southern Baptist. Father was raised Church of Christ and was the song leader at one time but was kicked out after divorcing his first wife.  Mother was Catholic, which of course was a non-starter for Dad.  So they met in what they considered the middle with Southern Baptist.  Mom and Dad were both heavily involved in church and I was there every Sunday (Sunday School, big church, RAs, evening church) and Wednesday for both dinner and service.

 

As I grew older I also became more heavily involved in the church. People pushed me for years to enter the ministry as I stood an examplar of what a young Christian man should be - and I was. I enjoy admiration and "doing what's right" only later discovering that's because I'm a people pleaser - something I still struggle with today.

 

Anyway - fast forward about a decade and my new wife is struggling to understand why she should believe and looking to me for answers. Of course, I had all the stock answers at the ready and said them with conviction. She admired the strength of my belief and wished to believe as I did, but my answers never satisfied her.  She also pushed me to be a pastor because I was so convincing, but that she believed on the strength of my belief. She loves me and if I am so convinced it's true, then she will believe until she actually takes to heart.  So began the quest to find the answers to her questions by studying god's word myself.  Surely the Good Book will contain exactly what is needed if I simply "seek and ye shall find."  Well, you can guess where I am now.

 

I should've had a clue this was were I'd end up when as a high schooler in a private discussion with my pastor after a sermon, I pointed out that if South American tribes who never heard the Gospel were guaranteed to get into Heaven then the worst possible thing we could do was bring the gospel to them.  By giving them the choice, the only thing we could possibly do was condemn them. His theology couldn't possibly be correct.  Another line I had with the next, and still current, pastor while I was in college related to avoiding even the appearance of sin. Paul's whole: do not be a stumbling block argument.  I argued the position that I couldn't have a girlfriend because if someone were weaker than I was, then they would commit sexual sin. So was he saying I couldn't date?

 

Anyway, I'll save the rest for a much lengthier deconversion story.

 

Mom, I'm sure knows I don't believe because she asks what about seeing Dad and other family in heaven. If it's not real, then what?  My old pastor's wife I suspect does as well because I argued forcefully at the time that Judas did exactly what god required of him and even Jesus said in one of the last suppers stories that all those seated with him tonight would be with him in Heaven (Judas hadn't left yet).  This was during my research phase and I was discovering many things about the Bible that previously I never knew.

 

However, I can't come out as ex-christian, because again, it would ruin my family both socially and professionally. One of my largest clients/vendors and long time friend confided at dinner a few weeks ago he couldn't possibly go into business with this other guy because he's an "atheist" and while a good guy, how can you trust someone who doesn't believe in god? - btw, he's a breed of Catholic I never knew existed until recently - only attends Latin mass, believes current pope is a communist plant to take down the Church with the homosexual agenda . . . something something . . . Mary's immaculate heart . . . something thing . . .

 

Second example is the young girl across the street sometimes plays with our daughter and when asked why she doesn't play with her next door neighbors who are about her age, she replied in hushed tones:  "because they're atheists."

 

Stuck in a pickle. I intentionally avoided discussing religion during my angry at Christianity phase, but I breezed through in about a year.  We still attend one of the big non-doms in town and volunteer, and fortunately no one asks my beliefs, they just assume given our culture.

 

One of my friends I confided in early on when I discovering the truth about the Bible and was a deist (never took the step to atheist) has recently reconverted back to Southern Baptist based on new "life experiences." I'm certainly curious, but can't figure out how someone as intelligent as he can now honestly handwave all the issues with the Bible that he brought to my attention.

 

[TABA]

Hi Krowb, and welcome to our community!  

 

Almost everybody here has to conceal their unbelief to some extent at least.  A few are unable to be honest even with their spouses.  Many can’t be open with some or all of their children, likewise very often with parents or grandparents (“it would kill Mom if she knew”).  And even those who can be themselves among family and some friends, have to be careful with business relationships, as you’ve seen.  If every agnostic or atheist could be open, everybody would know some unbeliever, and the stigma would be harder to sustain, so it’s a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation.  I guess it’s easiest to be open with people who already know us well, especially if we don’t fit the stereotype of the Angry Atheist.

 

All of which is why it’s good to have this community where we can be open with each other.  I’ve been active here now for more than four years and it means a lot to me to have this “tribe” of fellow-travelers.  I hope you’ll feel at home here too.

 

On 8/18/2020 at 11:47 PM, Krowb said:

One of my friends I confided in early on when I discovering the truth about the Bible and was a deist (never took the step to atheist) has recently reconverted back to Southern Baptist based on new "life experiences." I'm certainly curious, but can't figure out how someone as intelligent as he can now honestly handwave all the issues with the Bible that he brought to my attention.

 

People like that become “believers” because they want to, not because they find it intellectually convincing, typically.  It may be the emotional appeal of having a celestial parent, or loneliness and a desire for community.  Or to please a loved one.  In addition, not all non-believers are familiar with the many arguments against Christianity and theism.  Their non belief is not grounded on knowledge.  It’s important that each person know why they believe - or don’t believe, otherwise it’s easy to be swayed.  Being active in a community like Ex-Christian provides that grounding.  It’s common for people to come here as tentative Ex-Christians and then over the course of time they gain something like immunity to Christian and theistic beliefs because of all they learn.  They also gain a level of comfort with their non-belief that comes with being among like-minded folk.

 

Again, Welcome to Ex-Christian!  I look forward to hearing more from you...

[MOHO]

Hey, @Krowb.

Welcome to Ex-C!

Thank you for your post.

 

Many of us empathize with the reluctance to "come out" as a non-believer. I, for example, live and work in the bible belt of the Pacific Northwest and frequently am cowed a bit. Even though I have come out to my family and Christian friends there is still that underlying feeling. I dare say I see this in other realms of life - not just religion. One must also be on high alert in some areas of Oregon if you divulge any "conservative" values such as being pro-commerce and supportive of the police.

 

Nevertheless, and although I "preach" ripping off the band-aid when it comes to coming out, I am sensitive to situations where discretion is prudent.

11 hours ago, Krowb said:

One of my largest clients/vendors and long time friend confided at dinner a few weeks ago he couldn't possibly go into business with this other guy because he's an "atheist"

My stepson is a successful business man and has the same attitude. I notice that he will abandon his duties to his business(s) to play fundy-xtian  - a trait that I, and possibly his clients, do not appreciate. He even fired a successful salesman as he was "sinning too much". This translates to the employee not bending over for my stepson. I mean that figuratively of course.

 

So, is Mrs. Krowb in or out of xanity? Not clear unless I'm just being obtuse.

11 hours ago, Krowb said:

Stuck in a pickle. I intentionally avoided discussing religion during my angry at Christianity phase

You're a bigger man than I!

 

It's a huge help having this forum for social/moral (sorry) support when deconverting and dealing with fundies. I'm an introvert and don't' really need human interaction as much as "normal" folk but it sure is handy to come here and "talk" to like-minded individuals.

 

Hope to read more from you...

    - MOHO (Mind Of His Own)

 

 

 

[DanForsman]

10 hours ago, MOHO said:

 

So, is Mrs. Krowb in or out of xanity? Not clear unless I'm just being obtuse.

Me too. I wonder what she believes and if the two of you still discuss those problem areas in christianity.

[◊ Krowb ◊]

@DanForsman & @MOHO,

 

Mrs. Krowb's belief was tied to mine.  She likes the pastor of our non-dom and he is enjoyable to watch because it's basically uplifting and life improvement stuff with some cherry picked verses. No deep theology there.  But she never truly believed to start with.  She's from a strictly secular culture. Her culture may not be religious, but they have some unusual ideas on how the world and universe works.

 

Thank you all, not to forget @TABA, for the warm welcome. There's literally hardly anyone around me to talk about with it.  Most people seem to be on the extremes, either super religious or super anti-religious. Not many people care to take the middle road and see where it leads - and my experience thus far points me to withholding belief.

 

I look forward to helping out how and where I can.

[Joshpantera]

On 8/18/2020 at 11:47 PM, Krowb said:

Grew up a dutiful Southern Baptist. Father was raised Church of Christ

 

Welcome aboard!!!

 

Just wait till you see how many ex Church of Christ members we have here.....

 

On 8/18/2020 at 11:47 PM, Krowb said:

One of my friends I confided in early on when I discovering the truth about the Bible and was a deist (never took the step to atheist) has recently reconverted back to Southern Baptist based on new "life experiences." I'm certainly curious, but can't figure out how someone as intelligent as he can now honestly handwave all the issues with the Bible that he brought to my attention.

 

It's always subjective and emotional based every time. It always is. And when they try and orchestrate some type of objective reasoning, it turns out to be subjective, and not objective anyways, and they're back to square one. Or trying to make an objective argument from a subjective basis. This is the case with all variety of high IQ christian apologists. They want to believe it, so it must be right. It must be provable in some way. 

 

You know how Obwon says, "Sith lords are our speciality...?" 

 

Christian apologists are ours.....

[◊ Krowb ◊]

14 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

Just wait till you see how many ex Church of Christ members we have here.....

 

Funny story about that.  Our neighbor was hard core Church of Christ, super fundamentalist church that never exceeded 20 - including the pastor and his like 5 kids. He and Dad were very good friends, but only I could attend his church for special occasions.  Reason is because Dad was divorced he was condemned, and since Mom married a divorced man she had committed adultery and thus, also condemned.  I was the only one capable of being saved.  Crazy stuff.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, Krowb said:

 

Funny story about that.  Our neighbor was hard core Church of Christ, super fundamentalist church that never exceeded 20 - including the pastor and his like 5 kids. He and Dad were very good friends, but only I could attend his church for special occasions.  Reason is because Dad was divorced he was condemned, and since Mom married a divorced man she had committed adultery and thus, also condemned.  I was the only one capable of being saved.  Crazy stuff.

 

Sounds like one of the "anti" CofCs, as we used to call them.  They were labeled that because they were against so many things.  I was more "mainstream"  CofC.  You could even be an elder if your divorce was "scriptual."  (Due to infidelity) 

[◊ Krowb ◊]

13 hours ago, Weezer said:

Sounds like one of the "anti" CofCs, as we used to call them.  They were labeled that because they were against so many things.  I was more "mainstream"  CofC.  You could even be an elder if your divorce was "scriptual."  (Due to infidelity) 

 

I was in college before I learned there were CofCs that allowed instruments in worship!  All my experience with that denomination forbade them.  But boy, everyone knew their parts and all the verses and the sum total was some beautiful music.

[Joshpantera]

On 8/20/2020 at 11:40 PM, Krowb said:

 

Funny story about that.  Our neighbor was hard core Church of Christ, super fundamentalist church that never exceeded 20 - including the pastor and his like 5 kids. He and Dad were very good friends, but only I could attend his church for special occasions.  Reason is because Dad was divorced he was condemned, and since Mom married a divorced man she had committed adultery and thus, also condemned.  I was the only one capable of being saved.  Crazy stuff.

 

It's tough for me to interact with SDA's who do similar bullshit. I'm just so far removed from believing any of that shit, that it pains me to see and hear people stressing over this or that biblical issue. It's literally like listening to people squabble about an interpretation of any given sci-fi or fiction. It's beyond ridiculous. I just have to poker face through most it with my in-laws.....

[Tsathoggua9]

Hey, welcome aboard! I am also an "ex-church-of-christer". I was pretty lucky, though -- my mom was never much of a fanatic about it, and let me read widely as a child. I never really bought into the whole fundamentalist mindset.

[◊ DestinyTurtle ◊]

On 8/18/2020 at 11:47 PM, Krowb said:

However, I can't come out as ex-christian, because again, it would ruin my family both socially and professionally.

Hi @Krowb! Welcome to X-Xian! I completely understand. I had to be very secretive in the beginning because my parents would drop hints that I would be financially and socially ex-communicated if they found out I wasn't Xian. I was fortunate to be able to become financially independent before I moved out and "came out" to them, but even then it was a terrible sacrifice (By the way - I'm not implying you should do the same - it's by luck of circumstance I was able to move to a major city in the west coast where secularism is much more tolerated). Anyways, I hope the community here helps you in the difficult emotional/psychological/logistical situation! We all totally need to be validated.

[Lerk]

On 8/18/2020 at 10:47 PM, Krowb said:

was kicked out after divorcing his first wife.

 

That's the biggest sin the CoC recognizes!

[Lerk]

On 8/18/2020 at 10:47 PM, Krowb said:

Anyway - fast forward about a decade and my new wife is struggling to understand why she should believe and looking to me for answers. Of course, I had all the stock answers at the ready and said them with conviction. She admired the strength of my belief and wished to believe as I did, but my answers never satisfied her.  She also pushed me to be a pastor because I was so convincing, but that she believed on the strength of my belief. She loves me and if I am so convinced it's true, then she will believe until she actually takes to heart.  So began the quest to find the answers to her questions by studying god's word myself.  Surely the Good Book will contain exactly what is needed if I simply "seek and ye shall find."  Well, you can guess where I am now.

 

 

You don't say whether you've told your wife you don't believe it anymore. I hope so! If she doesn't really believe but is hoping you'll convince her, you might want her to know that you both are actually on the same page. As far as the community, would it be that hard for you and your wife to just "drift away" without formally declaring that you don't the mythology? That's tough in the Church of Christ (where I'm still a member) because the elders keep tabs on people, but I don't know about the Baptist church. If it's a big church, it seems possible that no one would notice. If it weren't for my wife, I'd just withdraw my membership and say I hadn't quite decided where to go yet. But if it wouldn't be noticed, I'd just quit showing up. (We have quit showing up since Covid, actually, since the church we are members of doesn't require masks. We've been visiting a place that requires them.)

[◊ Krowb ◊]

On 10/14/2020 at 3:44 PM, Lerk said:

You don't say whether you've told your wife you don't believe it anymore. I hope so! If she doesn't really believe but is hoping you'll convince her, you might want her to know that you both are actually on the same page.

 

We are on the same page and we are both much happier now that neither of us is striving for the impossible in vain.