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The cult of Trump escalated my departure from Christianity


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18 hours ago, disillusioned said:

This wasn't exactly my point, but whatever. It looks like we just fundamentally disagree on a couple points. First, I do not think that your constitution as it is is perfect in its guarantees of the rights of all citizens. There are some cases where the constitution was amended to deal with new rights, and others where it was amended to deal with rights that already existed. I don't see any reason to think that either of these processes is, or should be, over. Second, it is very clear at this point that you think that a better job of applying equal rights across the board is being done in practice than do I. I don't think we're likely to make any headway arguing about this, so I'll leave it there.

 

This should be objectively and demonstrably if true.

 

I need to see where the constitution doesn't guarantee the rights that guarantees equally to all US citizens. For instance, where a white citizen is guaranteed a constitutional right which a minority citizen is denied. Or a female citizen is denied a right that a male citizen is guaranteed would be another primary, objective example that the constitutional rights are not equally distributed to all US citizens. 

 

18 hours ago, disillusioned said:

One last thought: I think the idea that politics/political decisions/policy/whatever should be entirely objective is completely misguided. Politics is fundamentally about what people want. It has always been thus. Statistics are one thing, and lived experience is another. Both matter. Both inform political decisions. To take subjectivity out of politics would be to do away with democracy and move towards dictatorship, where politics as such do not exist.

 

Subjective opinion applied to issues that have objective facts is main problem that I see with subjectivity in politics. Such as the example given above. The constitution either does or does not grant it's rights equally to all US citizens. If someone believes subjectively that it doesn't, how does that translate into the political sphere? We of course face all variety of lies and false assertions with politicians. And subjectivity runs wild.

 

My thoughts are geared towards ways of potentially cleaning it up with applied objective focus, just the way that we try and clean up religion of fallacious thoughts, opinion, and associated beliefs. The problem always comes down to people thinking that their subjective opinions ARE objectively true. That's the case with gods, creation, spirits, ghosts, and the same seems to be true with a lot of political opinions from what I can tell. 

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I agree with Dave and Josh.   Christians and political Progressives/leftists have in common the idea that the human state can be perfected.  For Christians it occurs when Heaven is reached a

What do you call a Trump supporter in a Texas boat parade?       ...       A Proud Buoy.

The cult of Trump escalated my departure from Christianity. As I watched dignity, honor, and character take a backseat to the Republican party, I started to realize how many Christians were really jus

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On 9/9/2020 at 9:13 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

 

I'm going to be kind here and say this is disingenous Josh.

 

More whites are shot annually by police? Really? Thats your argument? Come on bud you are smarter than this. Any high school student with a basic statistical knowledge can see what's wrong with this argument. Lets not beat about the block. Its utter horseshit.

 

I should not need to point this out: There are more whites than blacks in the US... like WAY more. So of course more whites as a total will get shot etc as a result of having more absolute population numbers. The total numbers by themselves tell us little useful information. The rate per million ( or whatever metric you want to use) of blacks killed by police is higher than the rate of white people for the same metric. 

 

The question is why?? 

 

Ironically the article you linked states this! Perhaps reading what you link before posting silly arguments would be a good idea? This is the same argument my parents use. I am much dissapoint 😔

 

While the above may sound like a heated response, I realize that actually isn't all that heated. Since you and I have discussed this already between ourselves, I may as well translate some of that back into the public forum. Just so people reading along have the opportunity to understand that we're friends and this isn't going in a bad direction or anything like that. 

 

Weezer didn't expand very well on what he meant by saying that white people are not getting pulled over minor traffic violations and white people are not getting shot by police. It was an emotional based post that outlines a subjective opinion that is common right now. I wasn't framing a poor argument, like your parents. I was merely pointing out how emotional Weezer's claim was. 

 

And the other issue, pertaining to equality and freedom in the US, is how does it apply to equal rights anyways? I have equal rights as a citizen, I am white, and I have been pulled over by white cops for things as minor as not having my lights on 30 minutes before sundown. I kid you not. A cop pulled me over north of Vero Beach on A1A simply by profiling my truck with two surfboards hanging out the back and surf stickers on the back window. I'm sure he's taken to pulling over surf vehicles based on a high probability of finding weed or drugs. 

 

This happens to anyone that they suspect, for whatever reason, is very likely to have drugs or warrants or whatever. I don't very much like it. But they do this crap. I've been in friends vehicles and pulled over for similar minor BS aimed at getting a chance to search a vehicle. In the process they likely find a lot of people with warrants and I don't doubt that they find a lot of drugs. So they keep doing it, as part of the job of policing society. How likely do you think it is that they find illegal drugs or people with warrants when they pull over anyone, blacks or otherwise, for minor traffic violations? 

 

They have to do this around everyone's constitutional rights. And they have to read you your rights if they arrest you. They have to try and operate within the context of the law regardless of what race the person in question happens to be. We simply don't have whites or males operating with rights that minorities and women don't equally share, in this day and age. 

 

Notice how people shot by police of all races has been in decline between 2017 and 2020? 

 

And then look at all of the rioting going on in 2020. As the situation is in full swing decline. Emotion, not facts, is driver of the rioting and the progressive politics gone wild. That is so clear to many of us participating and reading along. 

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29 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

 It was an emotional based post that outlines a subjective opinion that is common right now. I wasn't framing a poor argument, like your parents. I was merely pointing out how emotional Weezer's claim was. 

 

You are making a big assumption when you say it was emotional.  It was not.  It was poorly worded, but not emotional.  I was merely making a statement based on my on observations, and a private "confession" made by a cousin who had retired from police work, being chief of police at one time.  With some, not all, policemen, if he/she doesn't like surfers, they just may get pulled over, and perhaps somewhat verbally harrassed.  But not all these stops result in citations being issued, and nothing goes on record.  I can't give you statistics on how often this happens because there is no record of it ever happening.  Statistics don't tell the whole story in many situations, and if you are interested, there is a book titled, HOW TO LIE WITH STATISTICS, available on Amazon.  Hopefully this can end this part of the discussion.

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23 hours ago, Weezer said:

You are making a big assumption when you say it was emotional.  It was not.  It was poorly worded, but not emotional.  I was merely making a statement based on my on observations, and a private "confession" made by a cousin who had retired from police work, being chief of police at one time.  With some, not all, policemen, if he/she doesn't like surfers, they just may get pulled over, and perhaps somewhat verbally harrassed.  But not all these stops result in citations being issued, and nothing goes on record.  I can't give you statistics on how often this happens because there is no record of it ever happening.  Statistics don't tell the whole story in many situations, and if you are interested, there is a book titled, HOW TO LIE WITH STATISTICS, available on Amazon.  Hopefully this can end this part of the discussion.

 

Yes, there's no way that I know of that we can find hard data on people being pulled over for minor traffic violations. Which is why I said before that I "assume" more white's, by default, are probably pulled over for minor traffic violations. Just because of the differences in population, like with the police shootings data. 

 

So the situation, objectively, is that we know more white people are shot by police than black people, according to the difference in population numbers between white and black. The same is likely true of minor traffic violations. I'm framing this without an emotional or poorly worded presentation. Just the raw facts of the matter. 

 

Anecdote about some guy somewhere who confessed to being racist is just that, from an objective, non emotional sense. So that can be labeled as it is and acknowledged as not representative of any mass scale analysis. It can't be applied across the board or anything like that, objectively. Only in an emotional based sense without the support of hard data. 

 

Outside of subjective and emotional beliefs ABOUT these political issues, what else do we have???

 

 

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On 9/13/2020 at 12:36 AM, Joshpantera said:

While the above may sound like a heated response, I realize that actually isn't all that heated. Since you and I have discussed this already between ourselves, I may as well translate some of that back into the public forum. Just so people reading along have the opportunity to understand that we're friends and this isn't going in a bad direction or anything like that. 

 

Yes, I'd like to emphasize this. To any new comers reading this, or even old comers (is that a thing?) many of us here are friends, as our mutual friend Mark used to say, "across the miles", and have known each other for years. Thus many of our disagreements, while appearing to be an interwebs slag match is actually just friends and acquaintances disagreeing with each other like one might expect to find around a table at a bar... the forum being the table I guess in the analogy. There are also conversations going on behind the scenes as well.

 

On 9/13/2020 at 12:36 AM, Joshpantera said:

Weezer didn't expand very well on what he meant by saying that white people are not getting pulled over minor traffic violations and white people are not getting shot by police. It was an emotional based post that outlines a subjective opinion that is common right now. I wasn't framing a poor argument, like your parents. I was merely pointing out how emotional Weezer's claim was.

 

Yes, and as I pointed out, I thought your interpretation of Weezers point was a little ungenerous. Weezer himself said that he wasn't getting at what you said he was. Basically I pointed out the higher rates per population of blacks shot etc as well as their lower socio-economic factors as part of three facts then asked the question why? I did not receive an answer, nor were the facts disputed. I copy my own PM here to refresh memory:

 

I have pointed out some objective facts: 1) As a percentage blacks are over-represented in crime and prison stats, and police shootings. 2) There is also a strong co-relation between propensity towards crime and violence and socio-economic status. 3) Blacks are also scoio-economically worse off than whites. (Economic state of Blacks).

 

Now I'll admit that it (The facts above) doesn't tell us what it indicates. It could be that blacks due to their race are just more inclined to crime. I've never seen any convincing research that would indicate a persons skin colour can have such an effect. Or it could be that there is racial prejudice in the system. Or it could be that there are socio-economic factors. Possibly, and I'm inclined towards this position, a combination of several factors. One thing I know that research does show is that propensity towards crime and violence is strongly co-related with socio-economic position. An often quoted fact is, that as a percentage of population, (and here I note conservatives are happy to go down the per population path) young black men are among, if not the most, violent in the US. Is this because black people are just more violent as a race, or is it the soci-economic circumstances they find themselves in because of the uneven playing field that has resulted from the past?

 

At this point our objectiveness ends and we are left with subjective answers as to why. But I don't think hiding behind "the law makes everyone equal now" (if I may paraphrase someone from the old thread) is a good answer, or an answer that will lead to a better world.

 

I later made the comment that I think the answers to my question is an "unholy" combination of the factors I have suggested.

 

 

On 9/13/2020 at 12:36 AM, Joshpantera said:

Notice how people shot by police of all races has been in decline between 2017 and 2020? 

 

And this is a good thing - it still doesn't address the greater point imo.

 

On 9/13/2020 at 12:36 AM, Joshpantera said:

And then look at all of the rioting going on in 2020. As the situation is in full swing decline. Emotion, not facts, is driver of the rioting and the progressive politics gone wild. That is so clear to many of us participating and reading along. 

 

I agree that a lot of politics is emotion today. When Trump says the Mexicans are rapists etc he is playing on peoples fears - the FUD factor. Fear, uncertainty and doubt. It's a powerful weapon. The left also uses emotion. However you cannot argue against our positions here but appealing to the fact that some other people make emotive arguments. And I think a bit of that has happened here - instead of addressing a members point the argument is made against some other group. An example is countering points we are making about the current situation, with a claim like BLM is marxist. Well maybe so. Maybe not. I haven't fully looked into that claim, nor been provided evidence of it, either way it doesn't address the points I've made. 

 

I sill haven't got to the level playing field lol

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4 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

I agree that a lot of politics is emotion today. When Trump says the Mexicans are rapists etc he is playing on peoples fears - the FUD factor. Fear, uncertainty and doubt. It's a powerful weapon.

 

I'm not aware of that. I am aware of Trump saying that cartels and criminals who cross the border from Mexico to the US are documented raping and carrying out crime. Of course fear factor is what it's aimed at, so while glossing over the actual context of whatever was said, your point is correct about fear as a driving force for political coercion.

 

4 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

The left also uses emotion. However you cannot argue against our positions here but appealing to the fact that some other people make emotive arguments. And I think a bit of that has happened here - instead of addressing a members point the argument is made against some other group. An example is countering points we are making about the current situation, with a claim like BLM is marxist. Well maybe so. Maybe not. I haven't fully looked into that claim, nor been provided evidence of it, either way it doesn't address the points I've made. 

 

I sill haven't got to the level playing field lol

 

In this exchange I know that both Dave and I, at least, have asked several people what they expect to find as a level playing field. What playing field are they discussing? Equal rights stands at this point. No one has shown otherwise. So from the top down, the top being the US Constitution and equal rights applied to all citizens, we begin with a level playing field. To get to what you must be referring to, we are going to have fine tune the playing field into smaller incremental segments of the playing field. Yard lines within the greater context of the field itself, for instance. 

 

Individual policemen, and pretty much individual people acting on their own free and clear of the law. The law says X. Some individual parts way with the law and does X. What the so called marxist organization wants to change the government and laws. To what, I'm not exactly sure. But they're clear that they want to burn down the system, metaphorically, and that has translated into rioting crowds literally burning down things. 

 

I know one thing, it's more emotional and subjective based than anything else. People are pretending as if we're in a 2nd civil rights movement some 60 years after the fact. It's about as fantasy oriented as Willy Wonka, though. What civil rights are they after, which they don't already have now? We need to get to the point of objectively laying out what rights someone is being left out of. We know it's not the 2A, or the 1A, or any other amendment. We know it can't be the right to vote, obviously. What rights are some people lacking that other people are granted here in the US? 

 

Can someone please explain this???

 

4 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Basically I pointed out the higher rates per population of blacks shot etc as well as their lower socio-economic factors as part of three facts then asked the question why? I did not receive an answer, nor were the facts disputed. I copy my own PM here to refresh memory:

 

I have pointed out some objective facts: 1) As a percentage blacks are over-represented in crime and prison stats, and police shootings. 2) There is also a strong co-relation between propensity towards crime and violence and socio-economic status. 3) Blacks are also scoio-economically worse off than whites. (Economic state of Blacks).

 

To which I posted a shortened clip of Larry Elder discussion a lot of the general statistics and what comes of it: 

 

 

Nearly every sentiment that has come up in this discussion about slavery and the socio-economic issues are addressed by Larry Elder in this clip. Dave Rubin was trying to argue the very points you and others have been trying to argue. He folded against Elder. And then changed his political view point afterward to more of a libertarian and classic liberal, dumping a lot of the progressive views that he had previous to their discussion. After which, Elder and Rubin became pretty good friends and went on to do many more shows together.  

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On 9/13/2020 at 8:04 AM, Joshpantera said:

 

Yes, there's no way that I know of that we can find hard data on people being pulled over for minor traffic violations. Which is why I said before that I "assume" more white's, by default, are probably pulled over for minor traffic violations. Just because of the differences in population, like with the police shootings data. 

 

So the situation, objectively, is that we know more white people are shot by police than black people, according to the difference in population numbers between white and black. The same is likely true of minor traffic violations. I'm framing this without an emotional or poorly worded presentation. Just the raw facts of the matter. 

 

Anecdote about some guy somewhere who confessed to being racist is just that, from an objective, non emotional sense. So that can be labeled as it is and acknowledged as not representative of any mass scale analysis. It can't be applied across the board or anything like that, objectively. Only in an emotional based sense without the support of hard data. 

 

Outside of subjective and emotional beliefs ABOUT these political issues, what else do we have???

 

 

When you have spent your life studying human development, and personalities, you understand that certain professions attract certain personalities.  And you understand peoples motivations and how these personalities tend to act in different situations.  It is not an exact science, but you learn to tell when something just might be true.  My "opinion" is that O.J.simpson killed his girlfriend, but the "facts" in court didnt support that.  

 

The tobacco companies argued that there was no evidence to support cigarette smoking was unhealthy or addictive, but for decades many people had the common sense to see that it was both unhealthy and addictive.  

 

Opinion:  People tend to see what they want to see, and some have blind spots on certain issues.  Perhaps this applies to both of us??  But I am not interested in splitting hairs and arguing into infinity.

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On 9/14/2020 at 12:43 PM, Weezer said:

When you have spent your life studying human development, and personalities, you understand that certain professions attract certain personalities.  And you understand peoples motivations and how these personalities tend to act in different situations.  It is not an exact science, but you learn to tell when something just might be true.  My "opinion" is that O.J.simpson killed his girlfriend, but the "facts" in court didnt support that.  

 

The tobacco companies argued that there was no evidence to support cigarette smoking was unhealthy or addictive, but for decades many people had the common sense to see that it was both unhealthy and addictive.  

 

Opinion:  People tend to see what they want to see, and some have blind spots on certain issues.  Perhaps this applies to both of us??  But I am not interested in splitting hairs and arguing into infinity.

 

All good points, buddy. 

 

I don't want you to get the wrong idea. I realize that there exist's racism in the world. It's just that I've watched it digress my entire life time. And don't believe what the liberal media is pushing about racism. That's all. It doesn't have to be any bigger a deal than that. 

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6 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

All good points, buddy. 

 

I don't want you to get the wrong idea. I realize that there exist racism in the world. It's just that I've watched it digress my entire life time. And don't believe what the liberal media is pushing about racism. That's all. It doesn't have to be any bigger a deal than that. 

 

I Agree man alot of this is fabricated BS and as far as im concerned it is for the purpouse of delibrately starting a race war

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