Precession as the Framework of Christian Origins

[Clayton_Veno]

4 minutes ago, Robert_Tulip said:

There really is no need to use any astrology to understand this material, although I grant  that at the popular level of understanding any discussion of the zodiac is closely linked to astrology.  However, I want to steer completely away from any magical claims about influence of the stars, and just stick to the empirical observable information.

 

For those who are less familiar with visual astronomy, and the basics of precession, I have just made a ten minute youtube video, available at https://youtu.be/NN5fIhwIS_Q, showing an animated star map going through 7000 years of precession from 4004 BC to 3000 AD.  Here is the text for it. I encourage you to watch the video to understand it better.

 

7000 years in the stars

 

This video providing a scientific hypothesis to help explain how ancient Christianity developed its belief that time is 7000 years long, starting from the alleged Creation of the Universe by God on Sunday 23 October 4004 BC, the date calculated by Bishop Ussher in 1650, through to the thousand year millennial reign of Christ ending around 3000 AD. 

 

Ancient religion was intimately connected to astronomy.  In looking at the stars, astronomer-priests in countries such as Egypt and Babylon noticed that the annual seasons were slowly shifting against the background stars.  This picture, using the astronomy program Skygazer 4.5 from Carina Software, shows the equinox stars in 4004 BC. 

 

The diagonal yellow line is called the ecliptic, marking the annual path of the sun through the background stars of the zodiac.  The horizontal white line is the celestial equator, dividing the north and south hemispheres as seen from earth.  The date each year when the sun crosses from the southern hemisphere to the northern hemisphere is the March equinox.  For the northern hemisphere this is the beginning of spring, while in the southern hemisphere it is the start of autumn.  The point in the sky where the ecliptic crosses the equator, marked here as 0°, is known by astronomers as the First Point of Aries.  They use this point to define the position of the stars with a measurement called right ascension. 

 

At that time the constellation of Aries sat between right ascension of 330° and 300°.  Back in 4004 BC, the first point of Aries was nowhere near the constellation of Aries, but was close to the Milky Way, between Taurus and Gemini.  How is that possible?  I will now animate the diagram to show you.  We see here the X point marked by the crossing of the ecliptic and the equator moves backward through the zodiac at the rate of one degree every 71.6 years. This motion is called precession of the equinox, and is caused by a slow wobble of the axis of the earth. 

 

Ancient astronomers were aware of this movement because over a few centuries it changed the alignment of their temples to the stars. It also changed the annual dates when constellations rise and set, an observation they used to know when to plant and harvest crops.  By 2000 BC, the equinox point had travelled through Taurus and reached Aries.  This period from about 4000 to 2000 BC is therefore called the Age of Taurus, and the period from about 2000 BC to the year zero is called the Age of Aries.  Actually the exact time the equinox takes to travel through one star group is 2148 years.

 

Stopping the clock at the time of Christ provides a picture of the sky at that moment.  Here we can see that the constellation of Pisces has a line of stars at right angle to the path of the sun.  The equinox crossed this point in the year 21 AD.  Using Skygazer we can zoom in to find the exact date when the equinox entered Pisces. This happened on 16 September, 21 AD, based on the actual visible line of stars known as the first fish.

 

The conventional constellation picture used by Skygazer shows how the Ram is pointing to this spot with his hoof. Ancient Christians could not calculate this so accurately, but they could work it out to within one or two decades.  This observation helps to explain why our calendar begins with the year one, with the Before Christ and Anno Domini dating system based on the zodiac Age of Pisces.  It also shows that the traditional Christian symbol known as the Chi Rho cross exactly matches the astronomical vision of the sky at the time of Christ, combining the path of the sun, the equator and the first fish of Pisces, as the ‘alpha and omega’ moment, the turning point of time.

 

Continuing the movement of the equinox through the Age of Pisces, we see that since crossing the first fish it has tracked along the second fish, and today has reached the group of stars known as the circlet.  The boundary between the constellations of Pisces and Aquarius does not have a simple line like the first fish of Pisces, so defining the date of the dawn of the Age of Aquarius is not as simple as for the Age of Pisces.  Using the 2148 year period for a zodiac age means this will happen in about the year 2169, assuming the Age of Pisces started in 21 AD. However, we can see that by the year 3000, the equinox will be well inside the constellation of Aquarius.

 

Most ancient astronomy has been lost, but this explanation shows how the Jewish and Christian mythology of creation and time could have been developed from careful observation of the precession of the equinox.  Thank you for watching.

In the begining of watching looks good!

 

[Joshpantera]

The video is helpful to illustrate how precession works. The main point here is that we know that astronomer priests existed and that religious festivals fell around the vernal equinox. I was just talking about his recently, how passover is specifically placed based on the sun crossing the vernal equinox, and then the first full moon thereafter. Then the Friday following. That's good Friday, Passover and Easter. It's been astrotheological all along. 

 

So another thing that is important here is that the annual year consists of a cycle going month to month, BEGINNING in Aries and ENDING in Pisces. But the long period cycle of backwards movement at the ecliptic (illustrated by Roberts video) is showing the Platonic Great Year, which BEGINS in Pisces and ENDS in Aries. It's the reverse of the annual cycle and magnified to longer scale. It's an effect of the earths wobbling axis, as Robert explained. 

 

But the significance to astronomer priests of esoteric interest, is the fact that that particular crossing, from the Aeon or Age of Aries to the Age of Pisces, marked the end of the previous great year and the beginning of the new great year. At that specific and unique intersection of the star charts. The first and last. The Aleph and Tau or Alpha and Omega point. And the religious iconography lays it out in plain terms. Pisces is the first constellation of the Platonic Great Year, but the last constellation of the annual zodiacal cycle. And the myths play heavily off of this stellar event. Even to the extent that you have to question things like, "those who are last shall be first, and those who are first shall be last," in the Sun's kingdom during the age of Pisces. 

 

Knowing about the astrotheological allegories, I see the bible completely different now. I look at it thinking about how an astronomer priest would read through passages and what they may have taken from it. I imagine that a lot of the content was always meant to be misunderstood by the general public. Freemasons and many other esoterics and mystics, however, see all of this very easily. Albert Pike had much to say about the book of Revelation, in this context. And I believe that Murdock caught a lot of grief in the first edition of the Christ Conspiracy by quoting Albert Pike and other esoteric sources. From christians and others. But Pike was right about most it. It is about the Great Year and it's spelled out in the book. 

 

This is another thing that Robert had picked up on from years ago. The 12 Jewels listed near the end of Revelation were by old tradition jewels associated with each constellation of the zodiac. With one problem. They are given in REVERSE order!!!! From Pisces to Aries!!! Apologist's have commented on this and tried to explain it. I've heard one explanation suggest that it shows John's total disavow of astrology, by reversing the zodiacal signs. Pure idiocy by a clueless apologist. That's actually text book precession referencing. The reverse order of the zodiac is nothing but precession. That then unlocks the key to seeing all of the other references to precession in Revelation. Albert Pike made it very clear that he knew that the book of Revelation was about the ending in scale of one Great Year cycle. 

 

Robert and I pioneered some intuitive investigations into this lead. Which led to noticing how Robert Buvual's work on the pyramids and precession, reveals an interest of the Egyptian's in the northern circumpolar sky. Specifically, what happens at the north pole region of the sky through the long period of precession. I looked at the constellations of the northern circumpolar sky and noticed a similarity with the strange hybrid beasts listed in revelation. Dragon not withstanding. We started talking about it. Noticed some correspondences. Maybe Robert can pull up the visual astronomy software images that arose from this focus. 

[WalterP]

On 9/17/2020 at 6:43 AM, Robert_Tulip said:

Hi Walter, good points.  I tried in the text to explain your point about visualising the alignment.  I didn’t put the chi rho cross straight on top of the triple intersection because it is important to see them side by side for comparison, angled to match the corresponding features of the sky at the time of Christ. It is interesting that the conventional constellation figure has the Aries ram directly indicating this X point with his hoof.

 

You say you have trouble visualising it, but your comment seems to understand it quite well.  The Chi is an X, which was described by Plato in the Timaeus four centuries before Christ as formed by the intersection of two great imaginary geometrical circles in the sky, conventionally understood as the path of the sun through the zodiac stars and the celestial equator.  This X point marks the annual beginning of spring, the day the sun crosses the equator from the southern hemisphere into the northern hemisphere at the March equinox. Plato said one of these circles is always the same and the other is always different.  That matches to the fact that the sun’s path does not change, but the position of the equator constantly moves as a result of the slow wobble of the earth’s axis.

 

As a result, the position of the X is constantly precessing backward along the path of the sun, at the rate of one degree of arc every 71.6 years. The cycle of zodiac ages produced by the slow movement of this X in the sky has long been called the Platonic Year, which suggests that Platonic philosophy knew much more about this natural observation than has survived in their texts. 

 

My claim with the Chi Rho Cross is that from long before the time of Christ, astronomers could see that the X in the sky was located in Aries, and would move into Pisces when it crossed the line of stars known as the first fish, which actually happened in 21 AD as shown in my diagram. This line of stars in Pisces accurately symbolises the rho or P shape in the chi rho cross.  The triple intersection only existed in the sky at the time of Christ. The Greek astronomer Hipparchus is recognised for calculating the speed of precession in about 140 BC, but it is likely that Babylonian and other astronomers already knew this, as Joseph Campbell has argued.  It is even possible that this knowledge was the basis of the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9, with the idea that a new messianic age would begin when the spring point crossed into Pisces.

 

The challenge here of visualising the sky is very important, considering that most people today are completely unfamiliar with the shapes of the constellations.  The stars were like the TV of the ancient world, providing a basis for popular stories.  The Greek myths of heroes like Hercules and Perseus placed in the heavens as star groups is somewhat familiar, but other cultures also had their own star stories.  My suggestion is that Jewish and Hellenistic astronomer priests who constructed the prophecy of Christ did so on the basis of this dynamic stellar observation of the coming new age of the heavens, understood as the Age of Pisces, with its inception accurately symbolised with the chi rho cross.  The rho is an actual line of stars, while the chi follows Plato’s geometry by mapping the moving intersection of the great heavenly circles.

 

Hello Robert and thank you for the reply. 

 

Yes, I can visualise the X in the sky that you are proposing here.  Have no fear about that.  I'm sufficiently familiar with the constellations to do that.  

 

My main concern for you is that your graphic lacked the necessary rigour to meet the high standards expected in astronomical circles.  After all, when it comes to matters of science precision is of paramount importance, wouldn't you agree?

 

Please don't think that I'm being hostile or combative here.  I think your line of argument has merit and that it throws a very interesting light on the origins of Christianity.  Its just that many, many people have a deep and long-seated emotional commitment to Jesus Christ and will very likely react badly to anything that might be construed as an attack on their cherished beliefs.  

 

I therefore think that its absolutely necessary that you make your case as strongly and as soundly as possible, dotting the i's and crossing the t's, so to speak.  To do this you need to be exactingly precise in every single element of the evidence you present to make your case.  

 

An example from my past that comes to mind is Gerald Hawkin's book, Stonehenge Decoded.  I'm sure you'll be familiar with it.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeoastronomy_and_Stonehenge#Gerald_Hawkins’_work

 

You'll notice that on this Wiki page it says that his work was published in Nature in 1963.  As you'll know, that journal only accepts papers that meet the very highest standards of accuracy and rigour.  The fact that Hawkins achieved recognition by Nature established him and his work as internationally recognised by the scientific community.  

 

If you would like your ideas to be generally accepted and recognised in this way I strongly recommend that you give serious thought to improving the graphics that you use to lay the foundation of your theory.  There's nothing inherently wrong or inaccurate in your current imagery.  Its just that you are trying to draw together two different images, fusing them into a unified whole.  Currently. your graphics don't do that.

 

You have the map of the heavens showing the constellations and where the lines of the celestial equator and the ecliptic meet with one another.  You also have a graphic displaying the Chi Rho cross.  You contend that the cross sits exactly upon the intersection of the ecliptic and the precession lines, is tilted at exactly the right angle and also matches the line of stars making up the first fish of Pisces.  

 

As far as I can see Robert, it is absolutely vital for you to convincingly demonstrate that the angle of separation between the two celestial lines exactly matches the angle of separation of the alpha-omega arms of the cross.  If there is even a small amount of doubt about this then you won't have the solid foundation you need to advance your argument any further.  You will have fallen at the first hurdle.  

 

All of the celestial data you need to do this is available, either in your planetarium program or elsewhere on the internet.  There are astronomical forums that are free to join where you will no doubt be able to find all the help you need in this area.  Fyi, I'm a member of this science forum.   https://www.physicsforums.com/  The Astronomy & Astrophysics section is best place to ask for help, if you need it.

 

When it comes to the Chi Rho cross, your task is more difficult.  I would imagine that this symbol has been hand carved/etched/drawn for centuries, with all of the imprecision that entails.  There is no one, single and definitive standard cross by which all others are measured.  The vagaries of hand drawn ancient symbols are a potential Achilles heel for your argument. 

 

If there's any doubt about the match between the angle of the arms of the cross and the angle of celestial intersection, then your critics and detractors will zero in upon it and criticise you mercilessly over it.  They will accuse you of deliberately 'fudging' the issue or 'massaging' the graphics to bring about the desired match between the two images.  You will need to nip these criticisms in the bud by deep, wide and rigorous research, followed up by graphics of clarity and unimpeachable accuracy. 

 

I hope that these comments are of help to you Robert and I wish you every success in your endeavour.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

[Robert_Tulip]

12 hours ago, WalterP said:

Hello Robert and thank you for the reply. 

 

Yes, I can visualise the X in the sky that you are proposing here.  Have no fear about that.  I'm sufficiently familiar with the constellations to do that.  

 

My main concern for you is that your graphic lacked the necessary rigour to meet the high standards expected in astronomical circles.  After all, when it comes to matters of science precision is of paramount importance, wouldn't you agree?

 

Please don't think that I'm being hostile or combative here.  I think your line of argument has merit and that it throws a very interesting light on the origins of Christianity.  Its just that many, many people have a deep and long-seated emotional commitment to Jesus Christ and will very likely react badly to anything that might be construed as an attack on their cherished beliefs.  

 

I therefore think that its absolutely necessary that you make your case as strongly and as soundly as possible, dotting the i's and crossing the t's, so to speak.  To do this you need to be exactingly precise in every single element of the evidence you present to make your case.  

 

An example from my past that comes to mind is Gerald Hawkin's book, Stonehenge Decoded.  I'm sure you'll be familiar with it.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeoastronomy_and_Stonehenge#Gerald_Hawkins’_work

 

You'll notice that on this Wiki page it says that his work was published in Nature in 1963.  As you'll know, that journal only accepts papers that meet the very highest standards of accuracy and rigour.  The fact that Hawkins achieved recognition by Nature established him and his work as internationally recognised by the scientific community.  

 

If you would like your ideas to be generally accepted and recognised in this way I strongly recommend that you give serious thought to improving the graphics that you use to lay the foundation of your theory.  There's nothing inherently wrong or inaccurate in your current imagery.  Its just that you are trying to draw together two different images, fusing them into a unified whole.  Currently. your graphics don't do that.

 

You have the map of the heavens showing the constellations and where the lines of the celestial equator and the ecliptic meet with one another.  You also have a graphic displaying the Chi Rho cross.  You contend that the cross sits exactly upon the intersection of the ecliptic and the precession lines, is tilted at exactly the right angle and also matches the line of stars making up the first fish of Pisces.  

 

As far as I can see Robert, it is absolutely vital for you to convincingly demonstrate that the angle of separation between the two celestial lines exactly matches the angle of separation of the alpha-omega arms of the cross.  If there is even a small amount of doubt about this then you won't have the solid foundation you need to advance your argument any further.  You will have fallen at the first hurdle.  

 

All of the celestial data you need to do this is available, either in your planetarium program or elsewhere on the internet.  There are astronomical forums that are free to join where you will no doubt be able to find all the help you need in this area.  Fyi, I'm a member of this science forum.   https://www.physicsforums.com/  The Astronomy & Astrophysics section is best place to ask for help, if you need it.

 

When it comes to the Chi Rho cross, your task is more difficult.  I would imagine that this symbol has been hand carved/etched/drawn for centuries, with all of the imprecision that entails.  There is no one, single and definitive standard cross by which all others are measured.  The vagaries of hand drawn ancient symbols are a potential Achilles heel for your argument. 

 

If there's any doubt about the match between the angle of the arms of the cross and the angle of celestial intersection, then your critics and detractors will zero in upon it and criticise you mercilessly over it.  They will accuse you of deliberately 'fudging' the issue or 'massaging' the graphics to bring about the desired match between the two images.  You will need to nip these criticisms in the bud by deep, wide and rigorous research, followed up by graphics of clarity and unimpeachable accuracy. 

 

I hope that these comments are of help to you Robert and I wish you every success in your endeavour.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

Hello Walter, this is good advice.  I might just take this chance to give some more background.  When I wrote my BA Honours thesis on precession in Christianity back in 1985, I found that the academics in the philosophy department where I did my degree were completely unwilling to discuss it, and instead dismissed it out of hand. I found that reception traumatic, although I do blame myself for being too cautious and secretive.  Admittedly I did include a number of highly speculative ideas, and did not always present them very well, but I thought they deserved discussion. 

 

The sense that this idea presents a scientific and religious and political paradigm shift is something that I see as important, but explaining it is difficult. Since then I have researched many different aspects of precession, including how it fits with and explains the evolution of Christianity, and how it relates to fields such as astronomy, astrology, culture, politics and even climate science. 

 

For example many people are unaware that precession made Long Island! This tiny slow orbital change, invisible to ordinary observation, was enough together with other orbital changes to drive a two mile high bulldozer of ice from the North Pole, which ended by dumping vast moraines of rock and soil across the USA at the latitude of New York.  That is just one story of how a systematic understanding of deep time can change our perspectives.

 

The problem I have found is that I tried from the beginning to develop a general integrated analysis, and have been too ambitious in assuming what other people could understand.  I find that the merest whiff of astrology is enough for many people to disengage.  But if we want to understand how Christianity started and how its inventors thought, then we have to accept that astrology was a big part of their thinking.  For example, the breast plate of the Jewish high priest symbolised the twelve astrological signs, according to Philo and Josephus.  Excluding astrology on principle is a completely mistaken approach, even while we don’t have to accept any astrological claims that lack evidence. What WB Yeats called twenty centuries of stony sleep has been enough to instil a deeply hostile prejudice against astrological thinking in both science and religion.

 

So you are completely correct that getting a wider interest in the hypothesis that the Chi Rho cross was based on observation of precession of the equinox requires careful rigorous presentation.  It is interesting to think about who the audience for such a paper could be. Its obvious link to astrology, and its effect of overturning prevailing assumptions, make it unacceptable on principle for many scientific and religious audiences.  So the point needs to be to try to reconstruct a plausible scenario for how this central symbol of faith could have originated.  That scenario requires casting a wide net, but that problem means it needs extensive and interdisciplinary research, probably a PhD.  Just finding any academics who would be interested to talk about the topic would be great progress.

 

On your point about the exactness of the correlation, the older versions of the chi rho cross are closer to the angle between the ecliptic and the equator, but the symbol has gradually changed, with the X portrayed with a wider angle.   The inclusion of the alpha and omega letters in the traditional symbol offers strong support for the hypothesis. 

 

However, this whole topic is intensely controversial.   An academic school called the Pan Babylonians claimed extensive ancient evidence of precession in the nineteenth century, but since this was dismissed by Christian researchers, completely unjustly in my opinion, this whole area of analysis has languished.

[WalterP]

14 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

Hello Walter, this is good advice. 

 

Hello again Robert. 

 

Its my pleasure to help out.  I happen to think that you are on to something that's both fascinating and capable of producing a paradigm shift in our understanding of the origins of Christianity.  But it will be an uphill struggle on your part, which is why I recommend that you do all that you can to put your work on as solid a foundation as possible.

 

14 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

 

The sense that this idea presents a scientific and religious and political paradigm shift is something that I see as important, but explaining it is difficult. Since then I have researched many different aspects of precession, including how it fits with and explains the evolution of Christianity, and how it relates to fields such as astronomy, astrology, culture, politics and even climate science. 

 

For example many people are unaware that precession made Long Island! This tiny slow orbital change, invisible to ordinary observation, was enough together with other orbital changes to drive a two mile high bulldozer of ice from the North Pole, which ended by dumping vast moraines of rock and soil across the USA at the latitude of New York.  That is just one story of how a systematic understanding of deep time can change our perspectives.

 

Yes.  I agree wholeheartedly.  If I may just illustrate how a clear understanding of deep time brings clear benefits, please take note of this.

 

 

The episodes of fear and panic Krys was suffering about the End Times can be alleviated by him gaining an understanding that the Biblical timeline running from Creation to Judgement Day is a man-made falsehood.  A better understanding of the immensity of geological time and the traumas our planet has endured and recovered from is the key to it.

 

14 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

 

The problem I have found is that I tried from the beginning to develop a general integrated analysis, and have been too ambitious in assuming what other people could understand.  I find that the merest whiff of astrology is enough for many people to disengage.  But if we want to understand how Christianity started and how its inventors thought, then we have to accept that astrology was a big part of their thinking.  For example, the breast plate of the Jewish high priest symbolised the twelve astrological signs, according to Philo and Josephus.  Excluding astrology on principle is a completely mistaken approach, even while we don’t have to accept any astrological claims that lack evidence. What WB Yeats called twenty centuries of stony sleep has been enough to instil a deeply hostile prejudice against astrological thinking in both science and religion.

 

Thank you for that insight Robert.  I knew about the jewelled breastplate but wasn't aware that there was an astrological aspect to them.  If you were to try and persuade others of this I suspect one of your first hurdles would be the span of time between the first appearance of the breastplate in the OT and the writings of Philo and Josephus.  How many centuries between them?  That duration presents sceptics with the opportunity to claim that both Philo and Josephus were retroactively force-fitting the twelve zodiac signs into the astrology-free ceremonies and liturgy of the Levitical priesthood.  They might also claim that because both writers were thoroughly Hellenized these astrological symbols are foreign imports that have have no place in a purely Judaic theology.  An uphill struggle against entrenched viewpoints!

 

14 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

 

So you are completely correct that getting a wider interest in the hypothesis that the Chi Rho cross was based on observation of precession of the equinox requires careful rigorous presentation.  It is interesting to think about who the audience for such a paper could be. Its obvious link to astrology, and its effect of overturning prevailing assumptions, make it unacceptable on principle for many scientific and religious audiences.  So the point needs to be to try to reconstruct a plausible scenario for how this central symbol of faith could have originated.  That scenario requires casting a wide net, but that problem means it needs extensive and interdisciplinary research, probably a PhD.  Just finding any academics who would be interested to talk about the topic would be great progress.

 

I can't really help you out when it comes to finding any sympathetic or neutral academics to help you, Robert.  Sorry about that.

 

But perhaps it would help if you were to take a step back from your hypothesis (which you no doubt understand inside out) and take on the role of someone coming to it for the first time?  Start at the beginning and see how far you get before you find yourself looking at a claim or an assertion that isn't backed up with evidence.  Make a note of  it and then move on.  Repeat this as often as required.  Don't try and do too much too quickly.  This is complex stuff.  At the end of your first session you might find that you have a page or two of notes that highlight points, claims and assertions that need to be supported with evidence and citations from research.  

 

If this suggested method works for you Robert, that's great.  

 

14 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

 

On your point about the exactness of the correlation, the older versions of the chi rho cross are closer to the angle between the ecliptic and the equator, but the symbol has gradually changed, with the X portrayed with a wider angle.   The inclusion of the alpha and omega letters in the traditional symbol offers strong support for the hypothesis. 

 

However, this whole topic is intensely controversial.   An academic school called the Pan Babylonians claimed extensive ancient evidence of precession in the nineteenth century, but since this was dismissed by Christian researchers, completely unjustly in my opinion, this whole area of analysis has languished.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[WalterP]

Hello again Robert. 

 

I don't know if you were aware, but it seems that the Ex-Christian site (not this forum) carried a tribute to D. M. Murdock, back in 2015.

 

https://new.exchristian.net/2016/01/tribute-to-mythicist-dm-murdock-1961.html#.X2kghGhKhPY

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[Joshpantera]

5 hours ago, WalterP said:

Hello again Robert. 

 

I don't know if you were aware, but it seems that the Ex-Christian site (not this forum) carried a tribute to D. M. Murdock, back in 2015.

 

https://new.exchristian.net/2016/01/tribute-to-mythicist-dm-murdock-1961.html#.X2kghGhKhPY

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

I was head long into a divorce around that time of 2015 and missed this article completely. I had gone very inactive on all forums for a while.

 

I've read through and find it to be a nicely written and well comprehended piece. Having fought along side of Murdock against apologist's and naysayer's trying to smear her with intellectually dishonest book reviews on google and elsewhere, this Jenniferg person seems to actually get it. I can't tell you how many times apologist's would write book reviews without having read any of the content, let alone followed the citations that are present in all of the books. It became tiresome calling them out on it all the time. And it showed me a lot in terms of what partisan religion looks like. And the extremes some people will go to in order to try and shut down something they disagree with. 

 

When Erhman wrote DJE? it was terribly written. He was taken to task on nearly all of it.

 

Especially where he assumed, without researching it, that Murdock was just making up the cock symbol in the Vatican. Even Richard Carrier, an adversary of Murdock's at the time, came in to support her against these claims by Ehrman. The drama levels were sky high back then. And I was in the middle of it all, as was Robert. People like WLC and JP Holding used to sign in to the forum under screen names. Dishonest apologists both of which were caught sneaking around and lying many times over.

 

Which is one of the reasons that I find your thesis on WLC especially interesting: 

 

@Robert_Tulip you may want to give the linked thread a read over and possibly add some comments. It's especially interesting. 

 

 

Personally, I think they badgered her straight to death! The critics, the apologist's, and the pseudo skeptical atheist types that fell in rank behind the apologists. She took on a burden accusing the Jesus myth of being based on solar mysteries of antiquity and having no historical core. She was stubborn about it and fought to the end. And she took her belief's about the Jesus myth to the grave. Perhaps there will be more in the way of a post mortem appreciation of her work and efforts as the years roll on. I often suspected that would be the case while she was alive. So did she, for that matter.....

[WalterP]

Hello Josh. 

 

Just picking up three points from your last message...

 

 

The extremes some people will go to in order to shut down something they disagree with?  What you've described is the polite end of the spectrum.  Here are two more extreme examples.

 

According to Peter Brannen, the author of this interesting book, https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32075449-the-ends-of-the-world a certain Midwest creationist museum discovered a rich bed of fossils when they were excavating the foundations for an extension of their existing building.  Palaeontologists requested time to carefully extract and preserve the fossils for further study.  Their request was denied and the scientists in question were also denied access to the site so that they couldn't even glimpse the fossils before the concrete was poured.  This anti-Flood evidence is now safely sealed away from the prying eyes of these wicked evolutionists.   

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites_in_Saudi_Arabia

Two commonly given reasons as to why the kingdom of Saud is destroying their Islamic heritage are (1) the 'alleged' need for more space for Haj pilgrims in and around Mecca and Medina and (2) the Sunni Muslim abhorrence of the Shia veneration of saints and their tombs.  The strict Wahhabi sect that rules Saudi Arabian Sunni Islam is actively trying to deprive Shia Muslims of any other place of worship other than around the Kaaba, in Mecca itself.  

 

In both cases Josh we see fanatical literalist purists from two different religions suppressing and destroying things they vehemently disagree with.  Robert has pointed out just such a process in his Precession-based theory of the origins of Christianity.   Literalists redacting and expunging any evidence that challenges their beliefs.  Personally, I find this attitude quite repugnant in its hypocrisy.  If you know of evidence that undermines your beliefs, then destroying it is an act of self-delusion.  You can't make something true by eradicating evidence against it.  Your beliefs were never true in the first place.  

 

 

I never realized that WLC and JPH used sock-puppets to spy on this forum.  From time to time I lurk and check the full list of WHO'S ONLINE and I've noticed that my Failed Cosmology of WLC thread is receiving some attention.  As I write this a GUEST is looking at it now.  This could be Robert Tulip, acting upon your recommendation.  Or it could be WLC himself or perhaps OrdinaryClay.  Who knows?

 

Whoever they are, they know now that we are watching them.

 

Btw Josh, how did you discover that WLC and JPH were the true identities of these 'members'?  (Please message me privately, if you don't want to reveal how you did this.  Thanks in advance.)

 

 

Lastly,  I've been dragging my heels on that Failed Cosmology thread and I must get round to winding it up properly.  I also owe Disillusioned some input in another thread.  I suspect that the UK will have to go back into lockdown fairly soon, to prevent a second spike in the covid-19 numbers.  That kind of isolation should give me just the kick up the butt I need to get round to doing these two things.

 

 

Sorry about the ramble.  All the best.

 

Walter.

[Robert_Tulip]

On 9/22/2020 at 1:21 PM, Joshpantera said:

Personally, I think they badgered her straight to death!

Picking up on this discussion of Acharya S (DM Murdock), I went with her to Yucatan in Mexico to celebrate the alleged Mayan end of the world at the 2012 solstice.  We were able to have some wonderful conversations as we were generally like-minded, with an interest in New Age thinking while trying to approach it from a critical rational perspective. We both had a paucity of people able to engage with us on the hypothesis of Jesus as the Sun which underlies the precession hypothesis.  Her death was caused by poverty.  She dedicated her life to her intellectual work, but was unfairly rubbished by religious and academic traditionalists for criticising their narrow doctrinaire assumptions.  That situation prevented her from gaining any employment except through her own entrepreneurial efforts as a publisher.  She had a tooth abscess which she left untreated for reasons of cost, and said she was advised by her doctors  that this was the probable cause of her breast cancer.

[WalterP]

CORRECTION.

 

Yesterday I wrote something from memory, instead of making fully sure that I was accurately citing the facts. 

 

I was away from home and using my laptop to write yesterday's message, in this thread. 

 

Today I've actually referred to the book in question and discovered that I mistakenly conflated two different sections of this book.

 

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32075449-the-ends-of-the-world (published 2017)

 

The Creation Museum is reported in the early chapters, but the location of the Triassic period fossil beds is dealt with in chapter 5.  This is the Solite Quarry.

 

Here's what Peter Brannen, the author of the book writes about this quarry.

 

The site recently switched ownership to creationists, and the Virginia Museum of Natural History was scrambling to recover what was left of this world-famous, 225-million-year-old Lagerstatte before its new landlords – unmoved by the old-earth implications of the museum’s work – blew up the rocks and turned them into road material.

 

A few weeks earlier, a dig volunteer had driven a car to the site with the COEXIST bumper sticker featuring symbols from all the world’s major religions.  It infuriated the mine’s evangelical owners and nearly cost the museum its access to the site.

 

“We feel extremely fortunate that they’re even working with us, but there’s just a lot of stress associated with, you know, when are they going to blast? When are they going to blast?” said Joe Keiper, the executive director of the museum, as he surveyed the industrial landscape in a hard hat.

 

“I’m a little nervous, because in this area behind us they’ve been working on clearing out all the debris in the last few weeks,” he said as hydraulic monsters menacingly rumbled by the dig site.

 

“It suggests that they’re prepping this site.  We feel fortunate just having one more day, one more day, one more day out there.”

 

 

Clearly this is not what I described yesterday and so I formally retract what I wrote about the contents of this book.  I was wrong.  I was mistaken.  I should not have tried to remember the content while I was away from home and should have waited until I could check and make sure of my facts.  For this lapse I apologise to my fellow members of Ex-C.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

[WalterP]

Perhaps an American member of this forum could help shed some light on what is actually happening at the Solite quarry in Pittsylvania County, Virginia?

 

When I try to access this site...

 

https://martinsvillebulletin.com/news/solite-quarry-still-yields-fossils/article_d6070abe-3f06-11e5-b694-9323a76e7ef6.html

 

...I receive this message.

 

451: Unavailable due to legal reasons

We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact info@martinsvillebulletin.com or call 276-638-0486.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[Robert_Tulip]

2 hours ago, WalterP said:

Perhaps an American member of this forum could help shed some light on what is actually happening at the Solite quarry in Pittsylvania County, Virginia?

 

When I try to access this site...

 

https://martinsvillebulletin.com/news/solite-quarry-still-yields-fossils/article_d6070abe-3f06-11e5-b694-9323a76e7ef6.html

 

...I receive this message.

 

451: Unavailable due to legal reasons

I am in Australia, but I was able to access the site.  Article is copied below.  This is relevant to my work on precession, because the real glory and grandeur and grace in the universe comes from scientific knowledge, such as the knowledge of precession and the knowledge of evolution.   By wrongly imagining that fossils are of no value, creationists display a perverted, alienated and depraved ethical compass regarding matters that should be held as of priceless sacred value, as these fossils reveal unique realities of deep time.  The divine order in the cosmos is only seen through scientific observation of the regular patterns of nature, and how these patterns are relevant to forming our ethical understanding.  God is not present in the false mythical imagination that sees the creation stories in the Bible as literally true.  

 

A year after a fossil excavation project at a Pittsylvania County quarry was expected to end, scientists continue to unearth vestiges of prehistoric life there.

But "we dig like every day is going to be the last day for us," because they could find out at any time that it is, said Virginia Museum of Natural History (VMNH) Paleontology Technician Christina Byrd.

That day might come when the former Virginia Solite Co. quarry’s new owner decides to start mining the roughly 1,000-square-foot portion of the property where digs are occurring, according to museum officials.

Or, they say, it could be when they determine there is no more rock that can be examined without bringing in large pieces of excavation equipment and massive crews. They think that would be expensive and impractical.

The project most recently has been funded by a $9,500 grant from the National Geographic Society.

Since the late 1980s, scientists from throughout the world have found many thousands of fossils dating to the Triassic period – roughly 250 million to 200 million years ago, around the time that the first dinosaurs and mammals are thought to have roamed the earth – in shale layers at the quarry in Cascade, near the Henry County line.

Ararat Rock Products of Mount Airy, N.C., acquired the quarry last year. Scientists made a mad dash to collect as much as they could from the property because they understood the firm intended to expand mining operations there. So far, the company has not touched the area being excavated, museum officials said.

Alex Hastings, the museum’s assistant curator of paleontology, said he never had visited such an extensive fossil repository before he joined the staff in July.

"There’s never been a dry day" when scientists worked there and did not find some type of fossil, Hastings said, to his understanding.

Ancient species discovered there have included Tanytrachelos, a long-necked reptile, and Mecistotrachelos, a small gliding reptile. Plant, freshwater fish and insect fossils also have been found at the site. Scientists say the quarry has some of the best preserved insect fossils anywhere, so the focus has been on collecting those.

"Insects outnumber everything else (found at the quarry) by a huge number," Hastings said. "There are gajillions of insect fossils there. That’s unheard of" in places where such fossils have been found.

Byrd estimated that "at least 20, and maybe 25" new insect species have been discovered among the fossils along with the reptiles identified.

The quarry is giving scientists "a clear picture of life along the shores of an ancient lake around which some of the earliest dinosaurs roamed," says the website of the National Museums of Scotland, which is participating in the digs. Nick Fraser, who now heads the museums’ Department of Natural Sciences, was the research and collections director at VMNH until 2007.

Including Fraser, "every paleontologist who has ever worked for VMNH has come back in the past year" to dig at the quarry, said museum Executive Director Joe Keiper. "This is a special, unique place that is nowhere else. It is pretty rare to have this kind of fossil assemblage" dating to around the dinosaur era.

Students and researchers from universities sometimes have joined scientists at the site.

Saturdays, when the quarry is shut down, are the only times when scientists can go inside the property. Ararat Rock executives and employees have watched them dig. Sometimes they have helped, Keiper said.

"They’re just interested and really fascinated at what comes out of their pits," he said.

In November, two Mecistotrachelos specimens were discovered and put with the two already found. Byrd said that to find two more was "quite an accomplishment."

Yet no new species have been discovered in the past year, at least as far as scientists know, she said.

Right now, "the focus is on salvaging" as many fossils as possible, Byrd continued.

"We’re bringing it out in bulk," especially rock containing insect fossils, Keiper said. "We’ll examine it later."

"But I’ll be highly surprised" if more new prehistoric creatures are not identified eventually, he said.

Fossils found at the quarry since last summer have included "nicely preserved insects," including a grasshopper, as well as "some nice fish and some weird-looking plants," Byrd said.

What makes them weird, she said, is that they look much like flowering plants of today, but they are not flowering plants.

Triassic-era plants did not produce flowers, Keiper said. They were similar to pine trees and ferns.

"It’s been amazing" that such unique creatures and plants have been found at the quarry over the years, Keiper said. As a scientist, he said, "this is the most satisfying research I’ve ever been around."

 

[WalterP]

Ararat Rock, huh?

 

https://www.yellowpages.com/mount-airy-nc/mip/ararat-rock-products-company-460809279

 

https://www.yelp.com/biz/ararat-rock-products-company-mount-airy-2

 

https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/ararat-rock-products-love-of-crushing-spans-generations/23822

 

Ararat Rock Products Company has operated a quarry in Mount Airy, N.C., for more than 50 years. Recently, the company acquired a new one in Eden, N.C. (formerly Virginia Solite).

 

I see. 

 

The creationist CEO named his rock-crushing company after the mountain where Noah's Ark supposedly came to rest after the waters of the Flood receded.

 

Then he renamed the Solite quarry after the garden where god supposedly placed the first man and then his helpmate, the first woman.

 

Both incidents from the book of Genesis taking place about 6,000 years ago.

 

 

I suppose that its never occurred to James Crossingham IV that everything he knows, everything he's learned and everything he's been taught about the rocks he crushes for a living  comes from the SCIENCE of Geology, where rocks are millions and billions of years old?

 

Or, if it has occurred to him, he simply denies it and goes with scripture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Robert_Tulip]

48 minutes ago, WalterP said:

he simply denies it and goes with scripture.

Creationism is evil.  It involves construction of a fantasy mythology for the purpose of deflecting evidence about reality, for the advantage of narrow personal interests that are in conflict with the public good.  This quarry operator is a classic example, able to ignore the intrinsic value of unique fossils by the psychological trick of pretending they are not real.  Alienation from nature is a depraved mentality.  As Rev 11:18 states, the wrath of God is against those who destroy the earth.

 

By contrast, my model of the Biblical cosmology as deriving from the hidden empirical astronomy of precession offers a path to transform Christianity into a highly ethical vision, where transformative and liberating texts such as the Beatitudes and the Last Judgement can become a basis for public policy, and where the supernatural imagination in the ancient texts is considered solely as parable for entirely natural observations.

[Joshpantera]

On 9/24/2020 at 10:01 AM, Robert_Tulip said:

By contrast, my model of the Biblical cosmology as deriving from the hidden empirical astronomy of precession offers a path to transform Christianity into a highly ethical vision, where transformative and liberating texts such as the Beatitudes and the Last Judgement can become a basis for public policy, and where the supernatural imagination in the ancient texts is considered solely as parable for entirely natural observations.

 

Can you expand on the Beatitudes and the Last Judgement as a basis for public policy? 

[Robert_Tulip]

2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

Can you expand on the Beatitudes and the Last Judgement as a basis for public policy? 

The Beatitudes are the core blessings in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5, while the Last Judgement in Matthew 25 lists the works of mercy required for salvation.  These ideas are generally ignored as absurd and impossible, such as that the meek will inherit the earth and that we should welcome strangers and visit prisoners.  And yet they present a powerful transformative vision for the repair of the world.

 

My view on the precession model for the creation of Christianity is that an ancient oral wisdom tradition had a deep continuity back to times well before the invention of writing.  This tradition is reflected in the Vedic myth from India of a cycle of deep time, between golden ages of wisdom, the Satya Yuga, and iron ages of ignorance, the Kali Yuga. I explain this in more detail in my essay on The Precessional Structure of Time, which I hope people can read and discuss. This mythology provides a scientific cosmological framework for this gospel ethical reading.

 

The mainstream Vedic tradition imagines Yugas as lasting billions of years.  A better ancient tradition, picked up in the last century by the modern yogi Sri Yukteswar in his book The Holy Science, imagines this cycle as lasting 24,000 years from one golden age to the next. A descending series from gold through silver and bronze to iron in a 4:3:2:1 ratio is followed by an ascending series again through bronze and silver to gold.  That model of descent from a golden age appears in a range of myths such as the Greek writer Hesiod’s Works and Days, the Roman Ovid’s Metamorphoses, and of course Daniel, with the statue with feet of clay. Yukteswar imagined the low point of the Kali Yuga as occurring in about 500 AD, with the ascending bronze age, the Dwapara Yuga, beginning in 1700. 

 

This all closely matches the precession cycle, as modulated in climate science by the slow rotation of the earth’s orbital axis (known as apsidal precession), which produces a main cycle of glaciation lasting about 21,000 years. The low point of this physical cycle occurred in the year 1246 AD, when the perihelion point, where the earth is closest to the sun each year in its elliptical orbit, occurred on 21 December, the shortest day of the year in the northern hemisphere.  In previous climate cycles before the rise of technology, this cyclic point marked glacial maxima, with the orbital structure causing cooler northern summers.  Since humans developed agriculture with methane emissions from rice and cows, this natural cycle has been disrupted, and has now been thrown into total chaos by fossil fuel emissions.

 

Since sapiens migrated from Africa to India about 80,000 years ago, there have been four of these cycles of deep time, in which the glaciers have advanced and retreated and the sea level has risen and fallen.  At the last glacial maximum about 20,000 years ago, the sea level was 125 metres below the present stable level, with all the water above that level locked up in giant ice sheets. My view is that the Vedic precursors of the gospel authors had a concealed knowledge of this extraordinarily long temporal cycle, perhaps only in fragmentary mythological form, but enough to construct a vision whereby the next 12,000 years would involve slow evolutionary ascent from a current time of darkness to a new planetary enlightenment.

How all this relates to the Beatitudes and the Last Judgement is that my view is that the gospel authors were part of a tradition that imagined the messiah as incarnating the spirit of the golden age of wisdom in the midst of the iron age of ignorance.  The story of the resurrection represents the idea that ignorance cannot destroy wisdom.

The spirit of the golden age is a life of complete trust, abundance, grace and freedom.  This was the human situation at the dawn of the Holocene, in the last golden age, before the slow cultural descent into the iron age.  This cultural regress paradoxically involved technological progress, marked by the rise of population and the emergence of metal, agriculture and writing.  As the equinox points crossed the Milky Way galaxy in about 4000 BC, the perihelion moved from summer into fall, a movement that parallels the Biblical mythology of a fall from grace into corruption.

The Beatitudes and the Last Judgement describe an ethical system of generous faith, as a long term aspirational goal for the cultural basis of stable planetary civilization.  Recognising that we are now in a global situation of chaos and risk of collapse, the idea of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ as the dawn of the Age of Aquarius involves the construction of a vision of long term healing and repair of human spirituality and ecological integrity. 

To say the meek shall inherit the earth, as the core powerful Beatitude, extends morality beyond human interests to recognise that the whole biosphere is meek, and must be respected in order for humans to produce sustainable peace and prosperity.  The collapse of soils is a parable for the contempt for the meek shown by modern colonising imperialists.  Soils have no active power, but if we ignore them and their whole spongy microbial richness, economic health and life are imperilled.  This vision of inheritance extends to the whole problem of biodiversity.  The current sixth extinction and rapidly accelerating global warming mark grave planetary peril resulting from the psychology of contempt for the meek.

The core idea in the Last Judgement is that salvation involves treating the least of the world as though they were of the highest value, representing Jesus Christ.  Practical planetary salvation, as distinct from the false myth of personal heavenly afterlife, depends entirely on care for the excluded, providing food, drink, clothing, welcome and friendship to all in a spirit of love.  This vision of liberation is far from some communist dream. Matthew 25 immediately precedes this long term vision of trusting abundance with the parable of the talents, blessing capital accumulation with the basic evolutionary principle that those who have much will receive more while those who have little will lose. The point is that freely creating wealth in order to distribute it enables universal salvation of the world, but those who create wealth and hoard it are damned.

[Joshpantera]

That's quite a lot going on there, Robert. We discussed things in the past around here to the effect of what to expect from christianity going forward, after several more generations of failed second coming claims. As we get further, and further, and further away from the establishment of modern Israel - to where shoe horning the creation of modern Israel into prophecy for the end times simply can't be asserted any longer. I do expect that it will necessarily change a lot of things. One thing that I expect, myself, is that fundamentalist christianity will likely subside to liberal forms of christianity. And it's not far fetched to see interpretation of the bible go off into different ways and become less literalistic. 

 

But I also expect to see a lot of people just dropping religion in general, including christianity. Going atheist, independently spiritual, neo-pagan, and all that's already been underway. Even against the theme of the ascending Yuga cycles of the east. Perhaps going towards the higher world ages involved dropping things like organized religion as society matures into enlightened directions. To where enlightened people of the higher world ages don't require the sort of cattle herding mentality that Iron Age or Kali Yuga (see world age chart below) oriented religions like judaism, christianity, and islam provide. There are different ways of looking at the cycles of time and arriving at expectations.

 

One of the more interesting points is the tensions that are expected around the cusps between world ages, as one age is shifting to another. As we've entered closer into the Piscean - Aquarius cusp, tensions have only proven to increase during this time.

 

It's interesting how the prediction could have been made a thousand or two thousand years ago. Based solely on the cycles of time against precession. The old ways in conflict with the coming of the new. All while technology and knowledge are in an ascending pattern. A blip on the radar, a bump in the road, so to speak.

 

I do notice the world age correspondences to what's going on now. Especially concerning my own theory that world leaders both political and religious, have a history of manipulating people and society around these times of change. I think that a lot of manipulation is involved in the tensions we see going around currently, IMO. Coinciding with the world age changes corresponding to our contemporary period. Picking up on a line from Robert Buvaul and Graham Hancock in the Mystery of the Sphinx about how the astronomer priests of antiquity seemed to 'manipulate men and history according to the celestial time table.' No spooky supernatural forces raining down from the stars, just good ole fashion religious and political manipulation of people, by people, according to esoteric lore and beliefs. 

 

Again, there are many ways of exploring these issues. 

 

But basically, what to expect from the Yuga cycles of time being correct, would be increasing tension into the end of the piscean age and the beginning of the age of aquarius (illustrated below). As some of the last hold outs from the dark age period fight to survive and hang on. And then eventually the old ways would then necessarily die off (through conscious manipulation or otherwise) giving way for newer ways to then take the lead and move forward through time as human consciousness continues a 'general trend' of ascension:

 

 

 

Above is a graphic chart displaying the cycles of time and historical content in which we are referring to in the discussion.  

 

 

[Robert_Tulip]

Hey Josh, thanks for this superb Yuga Age diagram from Yukteswar.  Before people assume it is just theosophical hooey, I suggest comparison to the scientific diagram below, which shows how this same global cycle of light and dark actually occurs as a function of orbital mechanics, due to the season of the perihelion.  Yukteswar's dating of the Yuga cycle is grounded in mythological religion, but is only about 10% off in period and timing from the accurate scientific knowledge of Milankovitch Cycles.  This information provides an empirical basis to conjecture that humanity went through a descending period (called the Fall) and has now entered an ascending period (Winter), certainly in terms of the astrophysics of the season of the perihelion, and plausibly in terms of culture.

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Wading through the above isn't easy for my simple mind, but something did "ring a bell".  If you consider lesser life forms like plants, cockroaches, alligators, etc as "meek", then they have a good chance of inheriting the earth when mankind destroys life as we know it.  And the cycle starts again.  (LOL, the following came to mind as I wrote that)  Even simple living agrarian people in far corners of the earth who can live off the land would stand a better chance of surviving.  Even during the great depression of the 1930s it was the simple dirt farmers who didn't see a huge change in their life style.  And I just read an article about the Chernobyl area and how wildlife is years later thriving in the area.  So, in a since, the "meek" do survive the best, and the cycle begins again.  Does this fit into the discussion?  And a bible verse comes to mind.  "There is a way that seems right to man, but the end thereof is destruction."  But it is not "the end", it just starts a new cycle.  How many eons has this gone on?

[Joshpantera]

15 hours ago, Weezer said:

Wading through the above isn't easy for my simple mind, but something did "ring a bell".  If you consider lesser life forms like plants, cockroaches, alligators, etc as "meek", then they have a good chance of inheriting the earth when mankind destroys life as we know it.  And the cycle starts again.  (LOL, the following came to mind as I wrote that)  Even simple living agrarian people in far corners of the earth who can live off the land would stand a better chance of surviving.  Even during the great depression of the 1930s it was the simple dirt farmers who didn't see a huge change in their life style.  And I just read an article about the Chernobyl area and how wildlife is years later thriving in the area.  So, in a since, the "meek" do survive the best, and the cycle begins again.  Does this fit into the discussion?  And a bible verse comes to mind.  "There is a way that seems right to man, but the end thereof is destruction."  But it is not "the end", it just starts a new cycle.  How many eons has this gone on?

 

Apparently this has gone on in the sense of wildlife at least a few times. Concerning the dinosaurs being wiped out and little mammals going on to 'inherit the earth,' so to speak. The wildlife evolving into us. And then facing the speculative issues surrounding how many times catastrophic events have wiped down humans, only to repopulate again. The science is foggy and still putting the pieces together. But from what I have seen, there was some sort of comet or asteroid impact around 10,500 BCE that appears to have left a lot of evidence. Ice water melt running off of the land mass and out to nearby sea level regions being some of the evidence. They've just recently found a few massive impact craters in the northern hemisphere which tend to reveal the likelihood of this causation being responsible for wiping out a tremendous about life in a short period. 

 

What's interesting about Robert's scientific research is that because of the tilt of the earth (I'm making this very basic, he can expand), and a wobbling north to south pole axis, the earth spins around and around like a wobbling top. The north star(s) literally change over time. They are not literally fixed stars, because the north polar axis faces different stars at different times as the earth's axis wobbles around and around in a circle. How the ancient knew this, and figured this out, was by observation of the constellations around the ecliptic at the vernal equinox, for instance. For around 2150 years the vernal equinox sunrise was in the constellation of Taurus, the bull. Then it shifted rising into the constellation of Aries, the ram. The christian era literally arose following the next transition in sequence, when the vernal equinox sunrises began to cross over into Pisces, the fishes. Opposite the sunrise, on the opposite western horizon, the constellation was and still is Virgo, the virgin. That some sort of celebration arose which mythologized this celestial time table transition, seems to be all but apparent in my opinion. Although framing hard core objective arguments about this have proven difficult to impossible. It's intuitive. Obvious to some, but not so much to others. 

 

But I'll say this much, when I discovered this information and saw that literally speaking, following the transition of the Aries (ram) and Libra (law) axial age pretty much summarized by very specific religious focuses in judaism, and a new religious cult environment began to arise in and around judaism celebrating the symbolism of a 'virgin born, fisher of men,' I pretty much didn't need any further evidence in my opinion to conclude that there's something to be gleaned from the astrotheological focus on not only christian origins, but in the origins many religions in general dating back even further. Going further and learning about the Platonic "Great Year," and the eastern Hindu Yuga's, where these cycles are mythologized into consciousness descending and ascending in society, brought another dimension to it. I read up these issues for a while. 

 

The big kicker here is that I have often wondered what in the world to expect from the next change???

 

We're coming up on the axial age of Aquarius - Leo. The theme of the current age as been, "to believe," and the religious focus in christian has been blind faith and belief. The astrological theme for the age of Aquarius is, "to know," and knowledge and knowing is the theme marker for the coming age. This is in contrast to christianity's "belief" and "faith" themed mythology. 

 

So imagine the same pattern continuing on, and people working to mythologize a new age, again, and per usual. The recipe for the mythologizing is starring us in the face. A male water bearing figure with a corresponding Lion figure to represent what the, 'virgin born, fisher of men,' represented in the previous mythologizing of a new world age. The avatars and personifications are very obvious and clear like that. If a new mythology were to emerge, it wouldn't correspond in any way to the contemporary period UNLESS it is carefully constructed to take into account what the dominant constellations of the contemporary period happen to be at the time. Out with the old and in with the new, right???

 

What this hints at, in my opinion, is that the "jesus" personification of the sun moving through the zodiacal constellations will have run out of time, from a mythological perspective. Some other avatar or personification would be in order. And then the question becomes, what does THAT mean to christianity going forward????

 

Any thoughts or ideas? 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

4 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Any thoughts or ideas? 

 

It is hard for me to grasp the constellation ideas.  Have never paid much attention to it, and it seems like a lot of conjecture goes into it.  But I can see how it could be interesting.  

[Robert_Tulip]

On 9/18/2020 at 11:20 AM, Robert_Tulip said:

For those who are less familiar with visual astronomy, and the basics of precession, I have just made a ten minute youtube video, available at https://youtu.be/NN5fIhwIS_Q, showing an animated star map going through 7000 years of precession from 4004 BC to 3000 AD.  Here is the text for it. I encourage you to watch the video to understand it better.

 

7000 years in the stars

Following up Weezer's comment that the constellation information is hard to understand, the above short video tries to explain it in simple terms.  As the philosopher of science Carl Popper said, science progresses by conjecture and refutation.  The point of new valuable conjectures is that they provide a better explanation of the available data. That is how I see the precession hypothesis.  I plan to engage further with Richard Carrier on this in terms of his new book Jesus From Outer Space!

[◊ Weezer ◊]

28 minutes ago, Robert_Tulip said:

  I plan to engage further with Richard Carrier on this in terms of his new book Jesus From Outer Space!

 

What a coincidence.  I was just getting ready to ask 2 other questions.  1. Is it possible that in our past there was a civilization as advanced, or more so, than we are today, and somehow it got destroyed and a new cycle of evolution started that scientist are studying today?  2. Is it possible "we" (Adam and Eve?) were put here from another planet in full human form?  (or perhaps Jesus was in one way or another?)  And there was also an evolution of animals going on here at the same time?  Lots of possibilities?  HA!  More than 2 questions came out as I thought about it.

[Joshpantera]

6 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

What a coincidence.  I was just getting ready to ask 2 other questions.  1. Is it possible that in our past there was a civilization as advanced, or more so, than we are today, and somehow it got destroyed and a new cycle of evolution started that scientist are studying today?  2. Is it possible "we" (Adam and Eve?) were put here from another planet in full human form?  (or perhaps Jesus was in one way or another?)  And there was also an evolution of animals going on here at the same time?  Lots of possibilities?  HA!  More than 2 questions came out as I thought about it.

 

This takes some background explanation. Carrier is furthering Earl Doherty's hypothesis about early christians believing in a celestial christ. Taking leads from sources like the book of Enoch, in order to bring more context to canonical references that are out there, like in Paul and other places. Where Paul is off an away up through the 7 heavens and similar lines that fall into the context provided in the book of Enoch, for instance.

 

They go into detail about these beliefs where angels and demons exist in these realms of space above the earth. Drama's taking place up where the sun and moon are. And Jesus descending down to the earthly level only to go back up again. This gives greater context to things like that the ascension theology. It appears that it was removed from the gnostic context where it makes more sense, in the process of canonizing the NT. 

 

 

I still take it to be mythological. Not that anyone wrote of a space alien guy going as yeshua and doing all of these things. I'm sure that's also how Carrier presents it in the new book. 

 

On the coming age situation: 

 

Luke22:10

New International Version
He replied, "As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters,

 

This has been taken as a reference to the constellation aquarius, a man carrying a pitcher of water. Jesus as the sun, the 12 disciples as the 12 constellations of the zodiac. Lectured on by MP Hall at the theosophical society and alleged to have been well known back to gnostic christian times. It follows in the style of Mithra or other cosmic avatars or solar personifications who in myth or iconography, represent the sun and 12 zodiac constellations. But the message seems to indicate a projection forward, to when the final passing over of the sun in the house of pisces, transitions to the house of aquarius. Perhaps as some sort of note to initiate priests reading along. Reaffirming that the suns kingdom is now in pisces and will remain so until the next age to come, the age of aquarius. That's how esoteric's and initiates can read lines like that. 

 

Like I was saying, it's difficult to impossible to hammer astrotheological content down to a science and objective argument. But there's still something there to be gleaned by those who are willing to look at esoteric tradition and try and piece it together. I've found good sporting fun and entertainment wading through this content over the years. 

 

What christians did was claim that jewish scripture had "traces" of content here and there about jesus. And then greatly expanded on it by creating a new mythos. And most of the claims are just wrong. Such as Matthew's claims of jesus foreshadowed in Isaiah and similar claims that don't pan out upon investigation. They took something that really wasn't there to begin with, and they ran with it as if it had been there all along. 

 

What's to stop someone from doing the same again, to the christian mythos? Claiming that fragmented passages foreshadow something else, something to do with the next age of aquarius? 

 

See the simple chart I posted earlier. It shows the cycle of ages and where exactly we are right now. It shows what's soon coming. It's all laid out in simplistic and easy to see and understand terms. When the ages change, new religion seems to emerge. The ages last around 2150 year long periods. And what's not listed there, is the biblical timeline. It roughly covers the 4 lower ages of taurus, aries, pisces, and aquarius. The last two descending ages, and the first two ascending ages of the total cycle. The rest of the cycle is without mention. But what is mentioned, covers exactly 1/3 of the total great year cycle, the lower dark ages of the total cycle. And it appears to be a meant as a dark age based mythology. About the fall into darkness and the climb back up into light. 

 

[Robert_Tulip]

17 hours ago, Weezer said:

If you consider lesser life forms like plants, cockroaches, alligators, etc as "meek", then they have a good chance of inheriting the earth when mankind destroys life as we know it.

There is a joke that the meek will inherit the earth except for the mineral rights. The point of the Sermon on the Mount is that the Kingdom of God involves a complete inversion of the values of the Kingdom of the World. Exactly how that paradigm shift was originally intended is deeply hidden by the twenty centuries of stony sleep of Christendom.  The fall from grace involves an evil corruption of worldly power whereby decisions are based on short term rather than long term interests, alienating culture from nature.

 

Considering the idea that the last are first in the Kingdom of God in ecological terms recognises that the health of the economy relies entirely on the ongoing health of the biological web of life, which is mainly made up of plants and microbial organisms, such as fungi, bacteria, microalgae, as explained at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_(ecology)#Global_biomass

 

Supernatural religious culture tends to ignore how much our society depends on the health of nature. The current effect of this sick dominion mentality is the sixth extinction, with the indifference to ecology causing a general collapse of the biosphere that sustains human life.  The question posed by the Bible is whether humanity can change direction in order to be a sustained part of life on earth, or whether we are headed for extinction ourselves. 

 

How I interpret this in terms of the precession model is that the orbital drivers line up completely with the mythology, and that ultimately the mythology reflects intuition of the planetary physics.  The years of climate fall, a time of declining northern summer light, is precessionally defined by the advance of the perihelion date from the September equinox to the December solstice.  By my calculation, the perihelion was at the September equinox in 4121 BC.  The December solstice perihelion date of 1246 AD comes from Mathematical Astronomy Morsels by Jean Meeus.  Seeing this real climate fall as underpinning the Biblical myth of the fall is in my view a productive way to interpret Christian theology.

 

The mentality of individualised technological progress proved highly adaptive through the fall period.  This proud and arrogant way of thinking, the opposite of meekness, has immense momentum, seen in the great moral value embedded in the construction of modern civilization.  However, the Biblical message is that the world has to shift its mentality, giving honour to the meek, to those who mourn, to the peacemakers, to the pure of heart, to the poor in spirit. Otherwise the wide and easy path will take us to extinction.