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Precession as the Framework of Christian Origins


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So, as a working example, a creative writer could use the above to work out a new mythology. One about rejecting supernatural religion in the past as a part of dark age mythology. And a necessary means to the next level in a natural progression of consciousness, which, is found in higher world age consciousness of the earth and of it's nature. Skipping along plucking out astrotheological content from here and there, one verse at a time, is there for the taking and ripe throughout scripture. The claim could be that the jews had it wrong, or didn't know what they had. The christians got it wrong or didn't know what they had as orthodoxy took over and maintained power. Until low and behold, a new revelation unfolded that couldn't unfold until the contemporary period. Which is open to all religious backgrounds as well as agnosticism and atheism. Doesn't involve literalistic interpretation. And centers around caring, compassion, and love for the earth, nature and humanity!!!!!

 

Ding, ding, ding!!!!!!

 

Christianity has proven that religious claims don't even have to make any sense at all. And can self contradict over and over again. No matter, apologist's can shore it up and keep complete nonsense going along for a couple thousand years at a time, or more. Regardless of the surrounding problems with the religious claims. Regardless of the context. 

 

But there's one big hurtle to face down here. Supernatural religion offers the claim of eternal life, literally. Literally living forever. And that's why I suppose that it can survive for thousands of years regardless of these myriad problems of no evidence to substantiate the claims. Toss in living forever, and, "ta da!!!," the magic formula seals the deal. 

 

How can a non-supernatural religious view offer something that can compete with, and or surpass supernatural religion @Robert_Tulip  ?

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My attached short essay on Precession as the Framework of Christian Origins was published last year as an Appendix in The Christ Conspiracy Second Edition by DM Murdock (Acharya S).  (4000 words)

And in those cases, rather than adopt new ways interpreting christianity or local pagan myths, the people simply went into more non-religious secular directions. I assume you're alluding to secular no

There’s no doubt that Eternal Life is the “killer app” that Christianity and other religions offer.   No reason-based belief systems can offer that.  Of course, what Christianity really offers is eter

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I remember a few preachers saying we should be more concerned about eternal life, than what happens on earth.   With that attitude, why worry about trashing the earth?  Just get down on your knees, worship God, go through the rituals, and live forever in a city with gold streets!  To heck with life on earth! 

 

I didn't mean to sidetrack this thread, but this line of thought is very much on my mind lately.

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20 minutes ago, Weezer said:

I remember a few preachers saying we should be more concerned about eternal life, than what happens on earth.   With that attitude, why worry about trashing the earth?  Just get down on your knees, worship God, go through the rituals, and live forever in a city with gold streets!  To heck with life on earth! 

 

I didn't mean to sidetrack this thread, but this line of thought is very much on my mind lately.

Lots of good comments here, but just dealing with this one immediately. It is not a sidetrack at all to ask how a precessional cosmology relates to the metaphysics of eternal life. 

 

The concept of eternal life really needs intensive philosophical analysis.  There is a heavy dose of psychological fantasy and corrupt selfishness in the idea that religion, as our connection to ultimate reality, offers the promise that the individual ego will remain in existence for ever. 

 

Eternity can be grounded in Plato's three subjects in The Academy - logic, physics and ethics.  For logic, eternal statements are outside time, such as mathematical truths.  For physics, eternity means lasting for ever within time, such as the laws of gravity and the conservation of energy.  For ethics, eternity means enduring stable moral truths, such as love, beauty and goodness.  Against that framework, eternal life should be understood as the physical flourishing of humanity on earth into the far future.

 

The traditional Christian idea of salvation as going to heaven takes Biblical parables about heavenly afterlife, like Dives and Lazarus or the Last Judgement, and treats them literally as describing heaven as a physical place.   But this leads to the false idea that living a good life is secondary to holding dogmatic beliefs, on the basis of a misreading of John 3:16 with its 'only believe' doctrine.  It is well worth noting that John 3:16 is immediately followed by the statement that Christ came not to condemn the world but to save it.  Saving the world, seen in terms of the transformation promised in the Beatitudes, is entirely about a scientific ecology, not the traditional imperial dogma of doctrinal conversion to a set of supernatural fantasies.

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In addition, Robert, Revelation has more to do with the earth being 'made new' than it does shooting off to the 7th heaven that Paul was referring to and what the book of Enoch discloses about early christian beliefs. They were working off of the near eastern bronze age cosmology concept of the earth as a flat round disk, with layers of "heavens" above the flat round disk. Where these angels and demons would battle it out and where the gnostic jesus ideas outlined by Doherty and Carrier come into context. 

 

 

OTcosmos.jpg

 

They had precession cosmology. But they did so from a platform of the near eastern bronze age cosmological conceptualization of the earth. Through the perception of a geocentric model. In Revelation, according to Albert Pike and others, the drama is great because it represents the ending in scale of one great year cycle. The end of the great year, not the end of the earth. The earth, in fact, is made new equipped with a "new Jerusalem." 

 

8 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

The traditional Christian idea of salvation as going to heaven takes Biblical parables about heavenly afterlife, like Dives and Lazarus or the Last Judgement, and treats them literally as describing heaven as a physical place.   But this leads to the false idea that living a good life is secondary to holding dogmatic beliefs, on the basis of a misreading of John 3:16 with its 'only believe' doctrine.  It is well worth noting that John 3:16 is immediately followed by the statement that Christ came not to condemn the world but to save it.  Saving the world, seen in terms of the transformation promised in the Beatitudes, is entirely about a scientific ecology, not the traditional imperial dogma of doctrinal conversion to a set of supernatural fantasies.

 

Saving the earth and the earth being made new in Revelation seem to correspond. But made new how? There's a fire cleansing by supernatural forces. The earth is saved by destroying "sin," which is defined as disobeying a deity. The judgement's are made, sinner's, the devil and cohorts, death and the grave are tossed into a lake of burning sulfur. Death to be never seen again. 

 

When you say it is entirely about a scientific ecology, this is where the big debate would seem to find itself. You have interpreted the christian mythology in scientific, ecological terms. Bronze age priests who were career supernaturalists, however, didn't set the mythology forward in those terms.

 

So it seems that either you would have to try and debate that yes, the bronze age priests did set forward an ecological statement of salvation for the 21st century. Or admit that they did not, but that you are re-interpreting supernatural mythology, naturally. Perhaps your interpretation coming out of an inspiration of some type, divine or naturally based in scope? 

 

 

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19 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

But there's one big hurtle to face down here. Supernatural religion offers the claim of eternal life, literally. Literally living forever. And that's why I suppose that it can survive for thousands of years regardless of these myriad problems of no evidence to substantiate the claims. Toss in living forever, and, "ta da!!!," the magic formula seals the deal. 

 

How can a non-supernatural religious view offer something that can compete with, and or surpass supernatural religion @Robert_Tulip  ?


There’s no doubt that Eternal Life is the “killer app” that Christianity and other religions offer.   No reason-based belief systems can offer that.  Of course, what Christianity really offers is eternal bliss for a few and eternal torment for the many.  Somehow almost all believers expect to be among the few.  
 

Many of us here have accepted or even embraced our mortality in exchange for the benefits of deconversion.  I guess that’s because in the 21st Century, life here on earth can be pretty damn good (yes, even in 2020!) and many of us don’t need to count on the hereafter to rescue us from this “vale of tears”.

 

Having said that, for many people life really does suck most of the time, and those are the ones who will buy into something that offers a better hereafter.  This correlates with traditional religion steadily declining as societies become more prosperous and peaceful.  

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On 9/29/2020 at 9:01 AM, TABA said:

Having said that, for many people life really does suck most of the time, and those are the ones who will buy into something that offers a better hereafter.  This correlates with traditional religion steadily declining as societies become more prosperous and peaceful.

 

And in those cases, rather than adopt new ways interpreting christianity or local pagan myths, the people simply went into more non-religious secular directions. I assume you're alluding to secular northern Europe in the above? 

 

I do find it interesting though, that christianity could be reworked in ways that embrace, rather than deny the role of Platonic and gnostic influence on ancient christianity. Robert has worked out some interesting ways of embracing things like the christ myth theory, and atheism for that matter, while cruising along as a cultural christian. I have to hand it to him, it takes a lot of multi-disciplinary thinking to get to where he's gone with the myths. 

 

Just at face value, what do people here think about the prospect of atheist and agnostic atheist christians, carrying on as christian for cultural reasons like this? Certainly it sounds better to me than fundamentalists or even liberal supernaturalist christians. If it were to go a certain way, I would prefer seeing it go somewhere like what he's describing as opposed to whatever else. 

 

And a question to Robert, are we as ex-christians offensive to your blend of christian atheism? I assume not. But I don't know. We are (most of us anyways) all atheists at the end of the day. We have that core lack of supernatural belief in common. 

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On 9/26/2020 at 9:06 PM, Joshpantera said:

That's quite a lot going on there, Robert. We discussed things in the past around here to the effect of what to expect from christianity going forward, after several more generations of failed second coming claims.

Josh, I see you made an even earlier comment that I still need to respond to, discussing my short video of the astronomy of precession.  Will come back to that.  For now, I have several comments on your analysis around the connection between the Yuga vision and the Second Coming.

 

There is nothing I enjoy more than this type of serious conversation.  I am presenting a very different form of second coming claim, totally excluding all supernatural and magical content. I imagine the idea of Jesus Christ as king of the world solely as a construction of secular philosophy. 

 

There is an astrological dimension to this as I explained in my paper on The Precessional Structure of Time.  Again not in any magical sense, just as a way of looking at the empirical structure of time and modelling what it means to see Jesus Christ as avatar of zodiac ages against that framework.

 

My claim, which I think is fairly simple once you get your head around it, rests on my astronomical discovery that the zodiac age period of 2148 years divides neatly into twelve 179 year periods formed by the overall structure of the solar system.  I regard this as a quite amazing and important discovery, integrating astrophysics, astrology and religion in a way that can be slightly mind-bending. 

 

The essential point is that the gas giant planets Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune come together every 179 years in a way that provides a simple physical structure for a zodiac age in terms of how our planet fits into the solar system. We are now approaching the shift into what I call the twelfth and final

house of the Age of Pisces, starting with the upcoming broad conjunction of these three big planets over the next five years. 

 

This coming 179 year transition period is a time in which I predict the zeitgeist will suddenly change and the debate about the integration of religion and science will take on a completely different quality.  People will ask in practical terms what it would mean to have the world ruled by gospel values, without accepting any obsolete mythology, but instead looking at how themes such as inclusion, truth, justice and love can integrate the gospel vision with modern scientific knowledge and humanitarian views.  I see the Second Coming entirely as something that will emerge out of this evolution of cultural perspectives on religion, as a paradigm shift in politics, science and religion.

On 9/26/2020 at 9:06 PM, Joshpantera said:

fundamentalist christianity will likely subside to liberal forms of christianity. And it's not far fetched to see interpretation of the bible go off into different ways and become less literalistic. 

   

Fundamentalism is a social psychological reaction to the providential bounty that was discovered through the settlement of the USA, as a way to maintain conventional social control in a context where moral freedom was perceived as highly risky.  It is no wonder that fundamentalism taints the whole topic of religion for American Christians.  It is essentially a desire to retain old fashioned patriarchal values in a modern world by inventing a fantasy that can block out contrary evidence.  With the information available from the internet, all supernatural theology becomes more untenable each day.  But the problem remains that a modern scientific understanding faces many challenges in constructing a moral theory.  So I think it is valuable, in a wheat and tares sort of method, to analyse what is valuable and what is obsolete in Biblical morality and doctrine, against a radical scepticism that sees all factual claims in the Bible as probably untrue except where there is clear corroboration such as the existence of Pontius Pilate.

On 9/26/2020 at 9:06 PM, Joshpantera said:

I also expect to see a lot of people just dropping religion in general, including christianity. Going atheist, independently spiritual, neo-pagan, and all that's already been underway. Even against the theme of the ascending Yuga cycles of the east. Perhaps going towards the higher world ages involved dropping things like organized religion as society matures into enlightened directions. To where enlightened people of the higher world ages don't require the sort of cattle herding mentality that Iron Age or Kali Yuga (see world age chart below) oriented religions like judaism, christianity, and islam provide. There are different ways of looking at the cycles of time and arriving at expectations.

The first observation that caused me to take seriously this whole idea of a precessional structure of religious evolution came from astrology, paradoxically in a way that reinforces the modern skeptical outlook you describe. Since the rise of modern science, there has been a steady gradual shift from belief to knowledge as the dominant social value system.   The widely used Astrologer’s Handbook by Sakoian and Acker says the main theme of Aquarius is knowledge, while the theme of Pisces is belief.  By pure coincidence, the evolution of human society from religion to science as the guiding value system matches exactly to the zodiac themes of an evolution from belief to knowledge, from Pisces to Aquarius as the governing principle of the zeitgeist.

There is no dynamic astronomical basis to connect these themes to their respective zodiac ages, so the coincidence is a complete mystery.  However, it provides a fascinating basis for further speculation.  What it means, as a framework for religious evolution, is that the mass religious consciousness of the Age of Pisces was centred on the Pisces theme of belief, while the emerging mass consciousness of the Age of Aquarius is centred on the Aquarius theme of knowledge.  The turning of the age means we are now approaching the tipping point where knowledge will become more important than belief in the determination of political power and cultural values.

On 9/26/2020 at 9:06 PM, Joshpantera said:

One of the more interesting points is the tensions that are expected around the cusps between world ages, as one age is shifting to another. As we've entered closer into the Piscean - Aquarius cusp, tensions have only proven to increase during this time.

I see this cusp between ages as stretching over the next two centuries, as the old mentality mounts a rearguard action and the new vision emerges to transform the planet, recognising the serious need for global solutions to problems like health, food, ecology and climate, with a new vision of human security.

On 9/26/2020 at 9:06 PM, Joshpantera said:

It's interesting how the prediction could have been made a thousand or two thousand years ago. Based solely on the cycles of time against precession. The old ways in conflict with the coming of the new. All while technology and knowledge are in an ascending pattern. A blip on the radar, a bump in the road, so to speak.

My view on how the ancients could have formulated the zodiac age cosmology is that they were connected to the Vedic myth of the ascending Yuga, and restricted their prediction to the next three thousand years.  The Age of Pisces was imagined as ‘priming the pump’ while the millennium beginning with the Age of Aquarius was imagined as a time when the values of the gospel would be taken seriously as a basis for global politics. 

As we have discussed previously, the holy city in Revelation encodes this vision of precession, beginning with the twelve jewels as the twelve ages, then encoding the Yuga vision in the idea that the holy city is 12,000 units wide, meaning that the ascending and descending halves of the cycle between golden and iron ages will last 12,000 years.

On 9/26/2020 at 9:06 PM, Joshpantera said:

what to expect from the Yuga cycles of time being correct, would be increasing tension into the end of the piscean age and the beginning of the age of aquarius (illustrated below). As some of the last hold outs from the dark age period fight to survive and hang on. And then eventually the old ways would then necessarily die off (through conscious manipulation or otherwise) giving way for newer ways to then take the lead and move forward through time as human consciousness continues a 'general trend' of ascension:

The transition we are now entering between Ages marks a tectonic shift in culture, a change of paradigm in which obsolete beliefs from the dark ages go to war against the emerging scientific consensus.  Recruiting the Bible as an ally of the new emerging world vision is an important element of the denial of legitimacy to the old age.  Accusing the Christendom mentality of systematically misreading the Bible through grand fraud can critique the totally dubious claim that Jesus Christ was an existing individual rather than the ideal invention of an enlightened community.  Gospel themes such as forgiveness, love of enemies and compassion present resources to promote a dialogue of reconciliation so that this debate can be viewed as a constructive way to envision a new earth.

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Robert, I think I am beginning to see some correlations between what you are saying, and Kohlberg's theory of moral evolution. We are getting ready to move out of the law and order stage.

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15 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

Just at face value, what do people here think about the prospect of atheist and agnostic atheist christians, carrying on as christian for cultural reasons like this?


I guess I’m struggling a bit with what it means to be an atheist/agnostic and “carrying on as Christian for cultural reasons”.   I sometimes think of myself as culturally Christian: I admire beautiful religious art and architecture. Even though I reject all the key doctrines of Christianity, including the existence of its god, I do get something out of attending Mass with my wife in a beautiful basilica.  But I don’t call myself a Christian of any kind.  I don’t look to Christian teachings for how to live my life.  
 

So in what way is a Christian atheist a Christian?  Thomas Jefferson famously edited the Bible to remove all references to the supernatural:  is that what we’re talking about here?  In terms of living one’s life, is Christian atheism any different from Humanism? 

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9 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

The widely used Astrologer’s Handbook by Sakoian and Acker says the main theme of Aquarius is knowledge, while the theme of Pisces is belief.  By pure coincidence, the evolution of human society from religion to science as the guiding value system matches exactly to the zodiac themes of an evolution from belief to knowledge, from Pisces to Aquarius as the governing principle of the zeitgeist.

There is no dynamic astronomical basis to connect these themes to their respective zodiac ages, so the coincidence is a complete mystery. 

 

Maybe. I don't think that it's driven by supernatural astrology, but there are other factors to consider. Sure, pure coincidence. Jung coined the term, "synchronicity." The concept has been greatly furthered and analyzed by Dr. Kirby Surprise. To where once an idea is set in motion, corresponding outcomes can then began to fall into place. Through a system of consciousness, not external supernatural astrological forces. It has been mapped out to where pisces is supposed to represent, "to believe," and it happened that way on wide scale.

 

Christian mythology through Paul and others set this trend in motion with their "just believe" theology. That is one example of how conscious manipulation of the population can factor in. Even to the extent of expectations based on astrological lore concerning the new age of aquarius, and the "to know," prescription for the coming age. New ager's have been manipulating in these directions for at least a century or more already. Many factors can play into the overall "coincidence."

 

9 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

The transition we are now entering between Ages marks a tectonic shift in culture, a change of paradigm in which obsolete beliefs from the dark ages go to war against the emerging scientific consensus.  Recruiting the Bible as an ally of the new emerging world vision is an important element of the denial of legitimacy to the old age.  Accusing the Christendom mentality of systematically misreading the Bible through grand fraud can critique the totally dubious claim that Jesus Christ was an existing individual rather than the ideal invention of an enlightened community.  Gospel themes such as forgiveness, love of enemies and compassion present resources to promote a dialogue of reconciliation so that this debate can be viewed as a constructive way to envision a new earth.

 

Well, case and point, look at the two christian apologists who just happened to both show up here recently. With the attitude of war against the emerging scientific consensus, for sake of preserving bronze age religion as literally true. This is what we're facing all the time. And likely will face for generations to come before it let's up in a meaningful way here in the US. 

 

One issue I take with the gospel message, is the contradicting nature of the proposals you outline. It outlines forgiveness, love of enemies, and compassion. But it only extends those things to certain people. For instance, only those who, "believe." A minority of people, as TABA mentioned earlier. A minority of which, somehow, the majority of christians must feel they all have a good shot at being. Even though the message doesn't suggest any widespread salvation, so to speak. 

 

I say contradicting, because how forgiving, loving, compassionate is jesus or yahweh towards satan? Or even the lairs, drunkards, thieves, and assorted dregs of world society in the eyes of the gospel writers? A true mythology which takes a serious stand on these issues, would necessarily unfold very differently. The devil, for instance, no matter how rebellious or evil, should necessarily deserve forgiveness, love, and compassion if this were the real motive behind the mythology.

 

But as we can see, that isn't really the motive behind the mythology at face value. It's a type of selectivism. It promotes a very selective forgiveness, love, and compassion. And it does so according to the consciousness and mind set of the bronze age priests who put pen to paper and created these myths. Narcissistic personalities, many of them. Love for all those who cower down to a power play. Hateful speech towards those who do not believe or conform to the power play. 

 

I think this is a problem that aspiring religious reformers ought to consider very carefully. The re-interpretation of these old myths could use some major, major re-interpreting. Perhaps even disregard, to be quite honest. Disregarding the old and replacing completely it with something entirely new that doesn't suffer these traits of the Kali Yuga / Iron Age. 

 

It may be that christianity has to be let go of, and not reformed over and over again. 

 

To where the final reformation, is dumping it altogether in favor of moving forward with something entirely fresh and new. But which can build upon past ideals that were not properly put into practice previously (as I've outlined for one example). Making it clear that they were failures and were not handed down from high fully intact and perfectly communicated. And so need a complete re-think going foward. Making that clear. And seeing who may be on board with moving on. 

 

 

 

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On 9/18/2020 at 12:56 PM, Joshpantera said:

The video is helpful to illustrate how precession works. The main point here is that we know that astronomer priests existed and that religious festivals fell around the vernal equinox. I was just talking about his recently, how passover is specifically placed based on the sun crossing the vernal equinox, and then the first full moon thereafter. Then the Friday following. That's good Friday, Passover and Easter. It's been astrotheological all along. 

·       Hi Josh, going back to this comment from two weeks ago, my point in the video was to show how precession appeared to the ancient astronomers, providing a very simple introduction to its cultural meaning.   Your phrase “how precession works” is a good shorthand, but is a bit different, covering the astronomical explanation, which was not available to the ancients.  Newton’s analysis of the effect of the sun and moon on the bulge around the earth’s equator began the modern explanation of how precession works.  Out of interest, the British Royal Society has an article published in 1806 on the physics of precession https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rstl.1807.0003  but this moved completely away from the problem of what precession means in cultural terms.

·       As you point out, traditional agrarian societies saw the position of the stars against the seasons as a basic method of measuring time, so the shift of the spring point by precession was a very important observation for them. 

 

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On 9/24/2020 at 9:01 AM, Robert_Tulip said:

 

By contrast, my model of the Biblical cosmology as deriving from the hidden empirical astronomy of precession offers a path to transform Christianity into a highly ethical vision, where transformative and liberating texts such as the Beatitudes and the Last Judgement can become a basis for public policy, and where the supernatural imagination in the ancient texts is considered solely as parable for entirely natural observations.

 

I'm kinda backing up the discussion again, but thinking about this, and Josh's comments about modified Christianity, these thoughts have crossed my mind.  I have seen a slight "liberal" shift in several denominations in my life.  Is it possible that a "movement" could begin by emphasing the beatitudes, love neighbor as self, etc?  More of a social gospel "christianity", REQUIRED for the survival of the world, while at the same time downplaying an all powerful, narcissistic God, and eternal life in heaven or hell.  It would take the influence of reputable people, money and groups to get it moving.  

 

I am thinking as I type, and it occurred to me that that is similar to what some denominations have done, and are having trouble surviving.  But maybe with some real fear at the door, it might fly??  Fear in terms of politics, war, and environment. Perhaps the time is, or about to become ripe for a shift in "mind sets"??  Hey, 2 states have announced trying to outlaw gasoline powered vehicles in the coming years!!

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I just want to be systematic and go through the comments that I want to respond to in chronological order.  So here is a bunch more responses from this Sept 18 comment from Josh.

 

On 9/18/2020 at 12:56 PM, Joshpantera said:

So another thing that is important here is that the annual year consists of a cycle going month to month, BEGINNING in Aries and ENDING in Pisces. But the long period cycle of backwards movement at the ecliptic (illustrated by Roberts video) is showing the Platonic Great Year, which BEGINS in Pisces and ENDS in Aries. It's the reverse of the annual cycle and magnified to longer scale. It's an effect of the earths wobbling axis, as Robert explained.  But the significance to astronomer priests of esoteric interest, is the fact that that particular crossing, from the Aeon or Age of Aries to the Age of Pisces, marked the end of the previous great year and the beginning of the new great year. At that specific and unique intersection of the star charts. The first and last. The Aleph and Tau or Alpha and Omega point. And the religious iconography lays it out in plain terms. Pisces is the first constellation of the Platonic Great Year, but the last constellation of the annual zodiacal cycle. And the myths play heavily off of this stellar event. Even to the extent that you have to question things like, "those who are last shall be first, and those who are first shall be last," in the Sun's kingdom during the age of Pisces. 

·       This is a simple explanation that you have given here Josh, so it mystifies me that this interpretation of Christian origins gets totally ignored by mainstream scholarship. It needs to be explained in a peer reviewed journal article, such as in Robert Price's Journal of Higher Criticism. The BC/AD turning point is physically marked by this simple empirical observation of precession. In the Western stellar framework it is timed by the transition between two successive periods lasting nearly 26,000 years.  That should be a big deal. And it originally was a big deal, captured by the symbol of the chi rho cross with its alpha and omega letters, and by the panoply of symbolic references in the New Testament which were systematically ignored. The fact that it is not a big deal reflects the psychological repression of natural cosmology by the supernaturalist insistence that spirit is entirely above and separate from nature.  This observation is a way to integrate the whole of reality into a coherent vision, overcoming the alienated separation intrinsic to conventional dogma.

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On 9/18/2020 at 12:56 PM, Joshpantera said:

Knowing about the astrotheological allegories, I see the bible completely different now. I look at it thinking about how an astronomer priest would read through passages and what they may have taken from it. I imagine that a lot of the content was always meant to be misunderstood by the general public.

·       Two books make that method of secrecy immensely clear.  The Memory Code by Lynne Kelly looks at the anthropology of initiation, explaining that all preliterate societies placed power among a small group of knowledgeable elders, who kept the purity of their cultural tradition by group recitation through oral memory, keeping this knowledge as a secret for initiates while telling the uninitiated simplified versions.  That ancient method of secret memory existed since the dawn of language, and only broke down with the rise of writing. 

The other book is The Celestial Key to the Vedas by B.G. Sidharth.  Again, it explains how Vedic literature was originally conveyed orally, systematically concealing its true meaning in the simplified versions provided to the masses.  My view is that the Bible is a simplified public version of lost ancient secret mystery wisdom teachings which were conveyed orally, and which structured their theory of God around empirical observation of precession.

On 9/18/2020 at 12:56 PM, Joshpantera said:

Freemasons and many other esoterics and mystics, however, see all of this very easily. Albert Pike had much to say about the book of Revelation, in this context. And I believe that Murdock caught a lot of grief in the first edition of the Christ Conspiracy by quoting Albert Pike and other esoteric sources. From christians and others. But Pike was right about most it. It is about the Great Year and it's spelled out in the book. 

·       Another quibble Josh, I don’t agree that mystics have seen ALL of this very easily.  If that were the case, the idea of zodiac ages would have figured much more prominently in the history of thought, as a hidden key to unlock the true meaning of the Bible stories. 

·       As well, many esoteric thinkers have a disdain for science which means they promote false claims.  For example Yukteswar has his superb outline of the Yuga theory, empirically accurate, but he then spoils it by claiming precession is because the Sun and Sirius are binary stars, a claim that is just wrong.  Pulling this material together into a coherent story will produce a new paradigm, which is a very difficult thing to do.  Acharya’s grief over Pike and others like Higgins arose from accepting some of their speculative claims on face value.  I chopped out a lot of that from the Second Edition of The Christ Conspiracy.

On 9/18/2020 at 12:56 PM, Joshpantera said:

This is another thing that Robert had picked up on from years ago. The 12 Jewels listed near the end of Revelation were by old tradition jewels associated with each constellation of the zodiac. With one problem. They are given in REVERSE order!!!! From Pisces to Aries!!! Apologist's have commented on this and tried to explain it. I've heard one explanation suggest that it shows John's total disavow of astrology, by reversing the zodiacal signs. Pure idiocy by a clueless apologist. That's actually text book precession referencing. The reverse order of the zodiac is nothing but precession. That then unlocks the key to seeing all of the other references to precession in Revelation. 

·       There is an excellent essay on interpretation of the twelve jewels, by William Reader, JBL 1981, available at https://www.jstor.org/stable/3265963 .  The zodiac reading apparently dates to a renaissance alchemist, Kircher, who says he got it from an old Babylonian text which is unfortunately no longer extant. Kircher was fascinated by ancient Egypt, but unfortunately the hieroglyphs had not been decoded at his time.  His Oedipus in Egypt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_Aegyptiacus from 1653 is available on the internet in the original Latin, but I have not seen an English translation of his twelve jewels reference.  My essay on the twelve jewels from about 20 years ago is at https://rtulip.net/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Twelve_Jewels.16004545.htm

·       Some of the other astral code in Revelation includes that the tree of life is the zodiac, the river of life is the Milky Way, the 12,000 unit width of the holy city is half the estimated Great Year, the time, times and half a time is the 7000 years comprising the ages of Taurus, Aries, Pisces and half of Aquarius, the moon at the foot of the woman is the blood moon eclipse in Virgo seen in Jerusalem at the Passover of 4 BC, the four living creatures are the constellations Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius, and Christ as King of Ages sets the vision of eternal order against the observation of precession. I discussed some of these ideas at https://rtulip.net/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/The_New_Heaven_Robert_Tulip.35771119.pdf

On 9/18/2020 at 12:56 PM, Joshpantera said:

Albert Pike made it very clear that he knew that the book of Revelation was about the ending in scale of one Great Year cycle. 

·       Pike’s Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry is available as a Gutenberg e-book at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/19447 It is 684 pages long in the version I have.  It was published in 1871, as a Masonic guidebook.  Very interesting to see his commentary on precession, such as “The image of the Sign in which each of the four seasons commenced, became the form under which was figured the Sun of that particular season. …When other constellations replaced them at those points, by means of the precession of the Equinoxes, those attributes were changed.”

On 9/18/2020 at 12:56 PM, Joshpantera said:

Robert and I pioneered some intuitive investigations into this lead. Which led to noticing how Robert Bauval's work on the pyramids and precession, reveals an interest of the Egyptian's in the northern circumpolar sky. Specifically, what happens at the north pole region of the sky through the long period of precession. I looked at the constellations of the northern circumpolar sky and noticed a similarity with the strange hybrid beasts listed in revelation. Dragon not withstanding. We started talking about it. Noticed some correspondences. Maybe Robert can pull up the visual astronomy software images that arose from this focus. 

·       Sure, as I say in my essay on The New Heaven, . In Revelation 13, the bear-lion-leopard taking power, seat and authority from the dragon encodes the observed precession of the North Celestial Pole from Draco the dragon to Ursa the bear, next to Leo the Lion, among the spotted leopard stars of the night sky. The shift in the pole from dragon to bear occurred from 1000 BC to the time of Christ.  I will redo the astronomy diagrams explaining this that we previous discussed.

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I have just made a short youtube video, The Astronomy of the North Pole.  This ten minute video provides a scientific animation of the movement of the north pole against the background stars over the last 14,000 years and into the future, to explain how authors of the Bible may have used visual observation of this slow movement to construct their mythology.

https://youtu.be/6wRRXbrQHrg

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On 9/21/2020 at 2:40 AM, WalterP said:

The episodes of fear and panic Krys was suffering about the End Times can be alleviated by him gaining an understanding that the Biblical timeline running from Creation to Judgement Day is a man-made falsehood.  A better understanding of the immensity of geological time and the traumas our planet has endured and recovered from is the key to it.

Hi Walter, your comment about End Times thinking raised the interesting problem of the implications of realising that conventional Christian mythology is an imaginary supernatural fantasy.  I fully agree that a scientific appreciation of the immensity of deep time has to be the basis of seeing the real fragile sensitivity of our existence on this planet and the grave risks to our planetary future.  There should be no credence for obsolete false religious fantasies about a literal interventionist God.

 

My view on this is complex.  I work on the hypothesis that an ancient Gnostic community was heir to a secret knowledge tradition that has now largely been lost except for fugitive fragments, and that the Indian Yuga myth of a 24,000 year cycle of golden and iron ages was at the core of this secret knowledge tradition.  My reason for entertaining this idea is that it presents an accurate match between mythology and science, as seen in the orbital cycles that drive climate change with the primary 21 KY climate cycle driven by precession.  The orbital ‘season’ of fall exactly matches the Biblical mythological season of fall, and the orbital ‘season’ of winter provides a basis to imagine a turning around from the mentality of the fall season, just as annual winter begins the slow path of increasing light toward the next summer.

 

So, assuming the Bible authors had this Yuga framework of an actual descent from a golden age, how does the Jewish theory of a 7000 year period from creation to judgement as explained at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_6000 fit with it?  This 7000 year theory is based on the day-millennium code from Psalm 90, reading the seven days of creation as code for seven thousand years, with six days of work followed by one day of rest.

 

Against the climate framework, this 7000 year period fits reasonably neatly against the slow cycle of the earth’s orbit. 

The annual date when we are closest to the sun, the perihelion, entered the season of fall in 4121 BC by my calculation, and the season of winter in 1246 AD.  So the "six days of work" match to the 5367 years of the perihelion season of fall, and the "day of rest" matches to the first millennium of the perihelion season of winter. It is important to note that such dating is very rough in terms of any causal effect on human life, but it does provide a general context, like saying how annual seasons provide a context for levels of activity.

 

My reason for advancing this interpretation is that I believe the Bible authors had a deeply accurate intuition of the structure of time, producing a model which can integrate religion and science today.  The core of this is seeing the story of Jesus Christ as a call for a paradigm shift away from the collapsing morality of the fall season to construct an ascending morality for the winter season, able to imagine the Kingdom of God as a positive practical secular transformation of our planet. 

 

An interesting part of this story which justifies the Jewish outlook is that the alleged first coming of Christ as described in the New Testament was actually entirely fictional, written to prepare for an eventual time when the moral theory expressed could become an acceptable basis for social existence.

 

So rather than just rejecting End Times thinking as a “man-made falsehood” as you suggest, this model I am suggesting places the mythology within the scientific context of the actual structure of time.  Rather than waiting for a supernatural Jesus to descend on the clouds of heaven, this model suggests that the ‘new heaven and new earth’ only makes sense as something that humanity can deliberately construct, combining scientific knowledge with religious insight to view our planet as sacred.  End Times thinking tends to be fearful and magical, but that language can be repurposed to discuss a practical transformation of the planet to address the very real apocalyptic risks we face of war, plague, death and famine.

 

The religious metaphors of the ascending Bronze Age of the Dwapara Yuga, the Age of Aquarius and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ can be combined to imagine a positive path toward universal peace and plenty.  Such a creative imaginative vision is the only thing that could confront and stop the current downward trajectory toward conflict and collapse.  In evolutionary terms, cumulative adaptation builds upon successful precedent.  For culture, that means finding the successful adaptive memes within religion and mythology, and recombining them to construct a new vision of a hopeful future.

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Hello Robert.  :)

 

Thank you for this. 

 

It's getting late here, so I'll take a proper look at your message tomorrow and do it the justice it deserves.

 

All the best,

 

Walter.

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I'm back again Robert.  :)

 

 

Perhaps the best way for me to respond to your post is to tell you a little about the Four Elements Tai Chi exercises that my wife and I do as often as we can.  Yes, I know that seems totally unconnected with the content of your message, but please bear with me and all will become clear.

 

As you know I’m very interested in astronomy and cosmology, but I also keep an open mind when it comes to ‘other’ kinds of knowledge and wisdom, from sources outside the canon of Western, materialist science.  That is because I have a great deal respect for our ancestors and I consider their minds and their intellectual capacities to be equal to ours in every way.

 

Therefore, I keep an open mind to such things as Tai Chi, taking the position that the ancients who refined these techniques could have been on to something important about the human body, how it works and how to look after it.  In this spirit of open-minded inquiry, I’ve been able to test for myself whether the regular practice of it actually delivers the benefits that have been claimed.  I’m pleased to report that thanks to our regime of the Four Elements techniques, Audrey and I have better balance, coordination and general wellbeing.  Therefore, I can (at least from my own experience) declare that Tai Chi measures up well to the claims that it benefits both mind and body.

 

The key point I’d like to stress is this, Robert.  The efficacy of Tai Chi was something that I could test for myself, by going out and doing it.

 

Perhaps you can see where I’m going with this?

 

I find your arguments fascinating and the astronomical details behind them to be sound, but how could your conjectures and beliefs possibly be tested, in the way that I’ve done with Tai Chi?

 

Unless new discoveries are made, the scant amount of data you to have to work with seem to me to fall short of being adequately testable.

 

Please be reassured that I’m not hostile to your beliefs or your claims.  Far from it.  As I mentioned above, I keep an open mind when it comes to ancient wisdom and the knowledge acquired by our ancestors.  But the acid test of any belief or hypothesis (ancient of modern) is in how well it stands up to being tested. If there’s currently no feasible way of doing this, then it remains an untested belief and an unverified hypothesis.

 

Robert, I respect and admire what you’ve presented to us about your work and I believe that you should continue it.  However, for the reason I’ve outlined above, I’m unable to do more than that or go further than that.  I currently cannot accept your belief and hypothesis because I cannot see any workable way in which it could be tested.

 

But please don’t take this as a signal to cease posting or to quit this forum.  Quite the opposite.  It’s just that I felt it necessary to make my position clear to you at this juncture.

 

Many thanks,

 

Walter.

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On 9/21/2020 at 2:40 AM, WalterP said:

I knew about the jewelled breastplate but wasn't aware that there was an astrological aspect to them.  If you were to try and persuade others of this I suspect one of your first hurdles would be the span of time between the first appearance of the breastplate in the OT and the writings of Philo and Josephus.  How many centuries between them?  That duration presents sceptics with the opportunity to claim that both Philo and Josephus were retroactively force-fitting the twelve zodiac signs into the astrology-free ceremonies and liturgy of the Levitical priesthood.  They might also claim that because both writers were thoroughly Hellenized these astrological symbols are foreign imports that have have no place in a purely Judaic theology.  An uphill struggle against entrenched viewpoints!

Hi Walter, the line of thinking you suggest is sadly prevalent among apologists, but it involves rationalising a rebuttal that resolutely refuses to recognise real evidence. By that I mean that traditional Christians are certain that astrology is Satanic, and that therefore ancient Judaism, as a non-Satanic belief system, must have rejected astrology and everything that reminds them of astrology, such as the presence of God in the zodiac.  That attitude produces a carapace that is immensely difficult to penetrate, but that is why I don’t care what apologists think and prefer to engage with people who have open minds.

 

When I read Philo and Josephus on this topic of the twelve jewels of the high priest’s breastplate, in the extracts and links below, I get no sense at all that the ‘foreign import’ theory you present could be true.  Rather, they are honestly presenting their traditions of seeing the presence of God 'manifest in the things that are made' (Rom 1:20), on topics which subsequently became anathematised by the church. 

 

I dwell on this point because it is a great example of how modern religion has reconstructed the past in its own image, assuming that its own hostility to the presence of the divine within nature was assumed early in the Biblical tradition.  Yes there is a Levitical hostility toward fortune telling and sorcery, but the point of the zodiac symbolism in the holy of holies was that God is reflected in nature, and the zodiac symbolises the stable order of the annual structure of time.

 

Philo’s commentary is at http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/philo/book25.html He says “XXIV. (117) … the dress of the high priest… is a copy and representation of the world… the mantle over the shoulders is an emblem of heaven. … the two emeralds on the shoulder blades… are… emblems of … the sun and moon…. the twelve stones on the breast… what else can they be emblems of, except of the circle of the zodiac? …For all the changes of the year and the seasons are arranged by well-defined, and stated, and firm reason; and, though this seems a most extraordinary and incredible thing, by their seasonable changes they display their undeviating and everlasting permanence and durability.”

 

Josephus’ comments are at https://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-3.html

He says “God … appointed the breast-plate … to resemble the earth… the sun and the moon… were in the nature of buttons on the High Priest’s shoulders. And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months; or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the Zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning.” 

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Hello Robert

 

Sadly, what you’ve alluded to is all too prevalent in almost every sphere of human life, not just among apologists.  Once a person becomes emotionally invested in something, they all too easily sacrifice their rationality and objectivity.  Their open mindedness gives way to a close-minded mentality, where supporting and defending their entrenched viewpoint matters more than the facts and the evidence.

 

I’m not that well up on archaeology or Biblical history; science is more my thing.  But even here, where you’d think that professionalism and objectivity should be the standard that all scientists should adhere to; yet even here, people can get irrationally attached to a theory or a particular scientific paradigm.

 

Take the case of String theory, for instance.  It promised a great deal when it was first formulated in the 60’s and 70’s and became the great ‘new thing’ in physics during the 80’s and 90’s.  But larger particle accelerators, more precise experiments and years of calculations have yielded no supporting evidence for it.  None whatsoever. 

 

Yet, there are still many scientists who, even though they laid and lost bets that the Large Hadron Collider would find evidence, still cling to String theory.

 

Robert, what we see in this forum, when Christians try to defend their faith, is nothing more than this same mindset - but on steroids. 

 

I daresay that the scholars, the apologists and academics you’ve encountered in your research will exhibit the same kind of unwavering (but misplaced) loyalty to whatever they’ve become emotionally committed to. 

 

It’s very sad, but I really don’t think that there’s much hope that matters will ever change.  What we are dealing with here is something that’s fundamental to the human condition.  So long as people have a strong emotional need to cling to something that gives their lives meaning, many will put this need before everything else.

 

Before the facts, before the evidence and before the contradictions of their beliefs

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

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On 10/7/2020 at 8:21 PM, Robert_Tulip said:

Philo’s commentary is at http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/philo/book25.html He says “XXIV. (117) … the dress of the high priest… is a copy and representation of the world… the mantle over the shoulders is an emblem of heaven. … the two emeralds on the shoulder blades… are… emblems of … the sun and moon…. the twelve stones on the breast… what else can they be emblems of, except of the circle of the zodiac? …For all the changes of the year and the seasons are arranged by well-defined, and stated, and firm reason; and, though this seems a most extraordinary and incredible thing, by their seasonable changes they display their undeviating and everlasting permanence and durability.”

 

Josephus’ comments are at https://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-3.html

He says “God … appointed the breast-plate … to resemble the earth… the sun and the moon… were in the nature of buttons on the High Priest’s shoulders. And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months; or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the Zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning.” 

 

And it can be mentioned that it goes even further. The veil sectioning off the holiest of holies was apparently a representation of the night sky adorned with jewels as the stars, representing the universe. It's all in very specific context.

 

Most people miss the curtain ripping from top to bottom significance. The writer worked in a reference of the heavens ripping down top to bottom, very specific to the, "as above so below," meaning found in esoteric traditions. The priest and breast plate play a role along with the jewish temple itself. 

 

I know some people are familiar with some of the archaeological finds in the near east where entire courts were found buried. All of the court members representing aspects of the sky. Joseph Campbell often covered the issue. And the jews seem to have been more of the same general mindset. The idea of representing down on earth what was observed up in the sky goes back to Egypt and the Giza necropolis and likely further. 

 

I follow along with a lot of this because I'm familiar with the background citation and various literature involved. I'm sure this sounds left field without having the back ground reading and understanding of the content. But it's pretty obvious to me that the jews were astrotheological like the Egyptians and Babylonians. The jews had their own rendition of it. And reading the historical data tends to firm up the notion. 

 

Having taken up these arguments as a mod and representative for DM Murdock, I learned a lot about the limitations of these arguments. Like I said before, they are intuitive. There's evidence to sift through. There are sources both primary and otherwise. But when someone digs their heels in the sand there's not really much that can be done. You can show citation about the 12 tribes representing the 12 signs of the zodiac, and the 12 disciples representing the 12 tribes of Israel. These connections are demonstrable. But hard core denier's who are emotionally motivated to deny the presence of astrological symbolism in the bible, will not budge for anything - demonstrable evidence be dammed. 

 

So I generally don't care if they get it or not. All I care about is that I've gleaned another layer of knowledge and understanding about something that I didn't understand previously. I'm not too invested in arguing any of it with apologist's any more. Been there, done that. I don't care if they get it or admit anything. But I don't want to discourage people who are fired up about it and do want to argue with the apologists. I've just served my time and am now on the back end of that raging battle. 

 

 

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On 9/19/2020 at 8:54 PM, WalterP said:

it is absolutely vital for you to convincingly demonstrate that the angle of separation between the two celestial lines exactly matches the angle of separation of the alpha-omega arms of the cross.  If there is even a small amount of doubt about this then you won't have the solid foundation you need to advance your argument any further.  You will have fallen at the first hurdle.  

The angle of separation between the celestial equator and the ecliptic is 23°, equal to the tilt of the earth’s axis.  There is no need for the chi to have this same angle, as it is only a symbolic representation.

 

The chi rho cross has evolved since ancient times, with a range of angles used within the chi.  The conventional interpretation is textual, that it symbolises the first two letters of the name of Christ.  Therefore we can expect renditions to reflect the usual shape of the X rather than the angle of the heavens. 

 

However there is also a long standing cosmic meaning. Both the textual and the astronomical meanings are reflected in the story that Lactantius at https://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/lactant/lactpers.html#XLIV told of how “Constantine was directed in a dream to cause the heavenly sign to be delineated on the shields of his soldiers, and so to proceed to battle. He did as he had been commanded, and he marked on their shields the letter X, with a perpendicular line drawn through it and turned round thus at the top, being the cipher of CHRIST. Having this sign, his troops stood to arms.”

 

Here we see the simple acknowledgement that the Chi X is a “heavenly sign”.  The background to this is from Plato’s Timaeus, which is generally accepted eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christogram#cite_note-5 and https://journals.openedition.org/etudesplatoniciennes/906 as referring to this celestial observation of the equator and the ecliptic as the framework of the world soul.

 

The point of controversy in my hypothesis is more with the cosmic origins of the letter Rho, which I argue matches the line of stars that the X crossed in 21 AD.  Unfortunately, I am not aware of historical evidence to support this contention, other than the range of precessional symbols encoded in the New Testament, and the logical elegance of the hypothesis that Jesus was invented as avatar of the Age of Pisces.  The link between the chi rho cross and the precession is simply a logical supposition based on observation of the data.  It relies on the argument that the cosmic origins of Christianity in ancient astronomical observation of precession was first kept as a secret for initiates, and was then successfully suppressed as heresy, leaving only forensic traces.

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Hello again Robert.  :) 

 

I knew about Constantine seeing a sign from heaven, but didn't know much about the background to it.  So, thank you for filling in that gap.

 

If you're interested, the Wiki page about the Battle of the Milvian Bridge has a section where its speculated that Constantine's heavenly sign was a display of atmospheric ice crystals reflecting and refracting sunlight in a highly ordered way.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Milvian_Bridge

 

Some[12] have considered the vision in a solar context (e.g. as a solar halo phenomenon called a sun dog), which may have preceded the Christian beliefs later expressed by Constantine. Coins of Constantine depicting him as the companion of a solar deity were minted as late as 313, the year following the battle.

 

If you look here, you can see other examples from history.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowitz_arc  Seen in 1790, over St. Petersburg, Russia.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parry_arc  Seen in 1820 by the arctic explorer Parry.

 

Nowadays computers can model how these displays would look.  Nice graphics below.

 

http://centaur.reading.ac.uk/20663/2/761_ftp.pdf

 

One possibility that suggests itself to me is this.  If you were to download the free Halosim software described here...

 

https://www.atoptics.co.uk/halo/halfeat.htm

 

https://www.atoptics.co.uk/halo/downld.htm

 

...you might be able to match up an image of a Chi Rho cross with one of the displays Halosim can produce.

 

What if the angle of separation of the arms of the cross lines up with those of an ice display?

 

Wouldn't that be something?

 

Food for thought, Robert.  

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

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On 9/28/2020 at 3:52 PM, Weezer said:

1. Is it possible that in our past there was a civilization as advanced, or more so, than we are today, and somehow it got destroyed and a new cycle of evolution started that scientist are studying today?  

Hi Weezer, going back to this set of great questions from Sept 28.  The problem with your questions about unknown past civilizations is that it directly invites speculation into lines of thinking that have been generally discredited.  The Chariots of the Gods argument from the 1960s and the whole ancient aliens topic are seen as highly dubious, resting on very weak evidence.  The Atlantis story from Plato is equally improbable, as are the theosophical ideas about lost continents.

The basic problems are the lack of support in the archaeological and genetic records.  Genetic data supports a model of the peopling of the world (the title of a book by Stephen Oppenheimer), in which the Americas were settled by land invasion from Siberia at the end of the last ice age.  That is not compatible with the genetic contact across the Atlantic that would have occurred in an ancient global civilization.  Similarly, there is no evidence of older high technology coming from dig sites. 

Your question about an advanced ancient civilization might however make sense in a different way.  At the last glacial maximum, about 20,000 years ago, the oceans were 125 metres lower, so all the continental shelves were exposed. That is one precession cycle ago, when the perihelion point was last in winter. People would have mostly lived by the sea, with the northern regions and mountains covered by two-mile-high walls of glacial ice.  All those large former coastal areas of the planet have since been covered by water.  The Persian Gulf was a jungle, India had an immense additional land area, the Black Sea was a small freshwater lake, Indonesia was connected to mainland Asia, Beringia was a large coastal plain, etc. My view is that the flooding of all these sites produced the flood myths.   

If there was an ‘advanced civilization’, they did not have the ability to travel around the planet, and they did not have metal technology or writing. If they were advanced in other ways, such as with systems of social and spiritual identity that produced a universal acceptance of belonging, we have no way to find any evidence for that.  As Lynne Kelly explains in The Memory Code, all pre-literate transmission of cultural knowledge was from mouth to ear, relying on elaborate systems of memory and ritual to ensure continuity and stability. These knowledge systems were durable and effective when times were stable, but easy to destroy once military conflict escalated.

The Yuga precession framework suggests a peak of spiritual wisdom about 12,000 years ago, at the dawn of the Holocene, as the seas approached their current level. At this time the perihelion was in June.  As people were gradually forced out of the previously most productive lands by rising seas, the increased population density generated conflict, enclosure, hierarchy and the need for technological innovation and progress to improve agricultural yields.   This process gradually led to what the Bible presents as the fall from grace into corruption, with a loss and forgetting of previous trust-based systems of universal abundance which could only be sustained at low population levels.  The match of this process to the movement of the perihelion from June to December, from summer to winter, repeats a 20,000 year cycle that had been stable for millions of years.

On 9/28/2020 at 3:52 PM, Weezer said:

2. Is it possible "we" (Adam and Eve?) were put here from another planet in full human form?  

No.  Humans share 98% of our DNA with other primates.  https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tiny-genetic-differences-between-humans-and-other-primates-pervade-the-genome/

On 9/28/2020 at 3:52 PM, Weezer said:

(or perhaps Jesus was in one way or another?) 

This one is interesting.  One of the great puzzles of the ancient world is the pyramids of Egypt.  All evolution in a closed system proceeds incrementally, with each successful mutation showing a small cumulative improvement in adaptivity to the niche compared to the previous structure.  But the Great Pyramids of Giza do not follow the evolutionary path.  They involve scale, accuracy, purpose, design and technology that are entirely unprecedented in the preceding human culture. 

For these reasons, and despite the intense mockery and derision this position attracts, my view is that the most parsimonious explanation of the great pyramids is that they were placed on our planet by an alien civilization as beacons.  The model I find most persuasive for this hypothesis is the science fiction series Canopus in Argos by Doris Lessing, with a highly intelligent and ancient culture working to enable the evolution of humanity toward a sustained global civilization, something we have not yet achieved.

We are now at the brink of the Fermi paradox, with its implication that intelligence is inherently unstable, explained at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox#It_is_the_nature_of_intelligent_life_to_destroy_itself Christianity may provide the intellectual resources to enable humanity to cross the Fermi threshold into sustained global civilization.

The model that I find most plausible to justify this hypothesis is that early humans were tutored by aliens, who built the pyramids as the marker of their visit, and who seeded the mythology that became Christianity.  The core of this myth is that as humans evolve toward a global civilization, our irrational instincts will provide a major barrier to the ability to generate sustained peaceful abundance.  An evolutionary shift is needed, not as a physical mutation but as a cultural memetic change, recognising our brains as our most adaptive trait, and starting to use our minds to cooperate effectively at the global level. 

The precessional framework of the Bible, seeing Jesus Christ as the imaginary avatar of the Age of Pisces, priming the pump for the global exalting of the humble in the Age of Aquarius, seems too advanced for ancient people to have constructed, but could well have emerged as the planetary diagnosis produced by an ancient alien wisdom who could see the destructive trajectory that humanity was on. The Christian ethical system of love of enemies (Matt 5:44) can only really be sustained at a global level, when ‘this gospel of the kingdom has been preached to the ends of the earth’ (Matt 24:14).  Similarly, the range of precessional ideas in the Bible, especially that planetary redemption involves understanding of the natural astronomy of precession encoded in the holy city, have a scientific sophistication that appears compatible with the hypothesis of outside help.

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Thank you Robert!  The part about Jesus and pyramids is very interesting.  I see logic in that, and food for thought. 

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