Precession as the Framework of Christian Origins

[Joshpantera]

On 10/19/2020 at 12:39 AM, Robert_Tulip said:

We are now at the brink of the Fermi paradox, with its implication that intelligence is inherently unstable, explained at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox#It_is_the_nature_of_intelligent_life_to_destroy_itself Christianity may provide the intellectual resources to enable humanity to cross the Fermi threshold into sustained global civilization.

 

Robert, this needs some clarification. I realize that you see this interpretation as simply, "Christianity," but that's somewhat misleading at face value.

 

You are talking more specifically about ancient "Gnostic Christianity," something entirely different than what is known as, "Christianity," here and now. Ancient "Gnostic Christianity" was astrotheological, Platonic, and possibly influenced by Vedic astrotheological concepts. That's where precession and astronomical sophistication enters the picture of possibility. 

 

It's not Christianity that "may provide the intellectual resources to enable humanity to cross the Fermi threshold," it's specifically an interpretation based on what is considered pure heresy by orthodox Christian thinking today.

 

And that needs to be stressed here for clarification. I can imagine people reading along thinking, WTF???

 

Christianity bringing sustained global civiliation???

 

On 10/19/2020 at 12:39 AM, Robert_Tulip said:

The model that I find most plausible to justify this hypothesis is that early humans were tutored by aliens, who built the pyramids as the marker of their visit, and who seeded the mythology that became Christianity.  The core of this myth is that as humans evolve toward a global civilization, our irrational instincts will provide a major barrier to the ability to generate sustained peaceful abundance. 

 

This sounds a lot like Laird Scranton's original book, "Hidden Meanings: a study on the founding symbols of civilization" 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Meanings-Laird-Scranton/dp/1401088767

 

I have his first two books in my personal library. Very interesting concepts, if true.

 

Teachers coming down from the stars and setting up civilization in the oldest cases. The symbols of the most primitive mythologies having multiple meanings. The myths passing down to newer developing cultures and then branching off and hybridizing over time. Leading from Sumer and Egypt, down line into Judaism and eventually Christianity - as the crow flies. 

 

But my perspective of this transmission of mythic symbolism is quite different than your take.

 

By the time these symbols and myths made their way down stream to Christianity, or more importantly, Gnostic Christianity, prior to the orthodox take over - they would have been fragmented and little more than a primitive rendition of whatever they started out as in ancient Sumer, Egypt, and elsewhere.

 

The journey between mysterious origins to Judaism and finally Christianity looks like a digressing, as opposed to progressing transmission through time. 

 

Nevertheless, I find all of this content interesting to discuss and consider. What you are talking about doesn't seem at all relevant to what we know as, "Christianity," today. So something would have to give. "Gnostic Christianity" would have to rise up again, or something. Otherwise, how in the world is something that is considered by most orthodox christians to be heretical supposed to represent Christianity here and now? 

 

That's a big hurtle to climb, isn't it? 

[Robert_Tulip]

18 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

Robert, this needs some clarification. I realize that you see this interpretation as simply, "Christianity," but that's somewhat misleading at face value.

Hi Josh, yes you are absolutely correct. My argument is that a transformed future Christianity can return to its authentic roots in a way that will make it compatible with evidence and logic, and open up the power of its ethical message for the modern world.

At the moment, we could say that mainstream supernatural Christianity is taking the world down a wide and easy road to destruction, and has little concept of the hard and narrow path of salvation.  Just using that parable from Matthew 7:14 illustrates the dilemma:  Christianity has some powerful metaphors and messages, but these messages are twisted into delusional and dangerous beliefs while they are held within the corrupt church container of the supernatural personal God and the historical Jesus of Nazareth. 

As with modern science, we should believe nothing in the Bible that lacks external corroboration.  For the New Testament, that boils down to accepting only the existence of Pilate, Caiaphas and Herod in Palestine, as attested by independent sources, but accepting none of the content about Jesus or Paul except as pure parable.

18 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

You are talking more specifically about ancient "Gnostic Christianity," something entirely different than what is known as, "Christianity," here and now. Ancient "Gnostic Christianity" was astrotheological, Platonic, and possibly influenced by Vedic astrotheological concepts. That's where precession and astronomical sophistication enters the picture of possibility. 

Yes, and the challenge is to excavate the rubble of Christendom to provide a compelling explanation of how the degraded falsity of prevailing Christianity emerged from an original high wisdom. 

As I have said before, a bare field gives few clues of the rich forest that previously stood on its soil. Traditional Christianity is a barren field, standing where the riches of the ancient world were burnt and felled and destroyed.  The forensic challenge is to find the clues that point to the lost secret knowledge.  Thankfully, in my view, this is a simpler matter than is portrayed in some accounts such as Blavatsky’s Isis Unveiled, because the New Testament itself is full of concealed astronomy, in ways that have only very partially been explored. 

The underlying premise suggests the scale of depravity involved in the substitution of the Jeso-Nazareth orthodox cult for the original initiatic mysteries was far worse than is easily imagined. 

Plutarch https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/britannia/miscellanea/caesar.html claimed Julius Caesar killed 1.2 million Gauls and enslaved a million more in conquering France.  The point is that the scale of terror in Roman imperial policy rivals Genghis Khan, and the brutal simplification of Christian faith was part of a highly complex political conflict. 

The systematic removal of the original mystery astronomy appears to have been a strategic and tactical decision by the Church Fathers in their efforts to build Christianity as a mass movement that would undermine the moral legitimacy of the Empire.

18 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

It's not Christianity that "may provide the intellectual resources to enable humanity to cross the Fermi threshold," it's specifically an interpretation based on what is considered pure heresy by orthodox Christian thinking today.

When I say “Christianity” I mean the original ideas that constructed the New Testament.  My view, as you summarised, is that the kernel of these ideas was a Platonic Gnostic astronomy, imagining Jesus Christ for centuries beforehand as the coming avatar of the zodiac Age of Pisces. 

To place that hypothesis against mainstream scholarship, I would like to read Bart Ehrman’s book Lost Christianities, https://www.amazon.com.au/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/dp/0195182499 except that I see from the reviews that “Ehrman makes his case without pushing into territory considered heretical by many mainstream Christians.” 

That refusal to countenance allegedly heretical ideas was a major flaw in Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist?, which I have read.  It completely wrongly assumes as a premise that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical person, an assumption which I think prevents coherent analysis of the source material.  It is noteworthy that Frank Zindler in his critique of Ehrman puts this zodiac hypothesis in the centre.

18 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

And that needs to be stressed here for clarification. I can imagine people reading along thinking, WTF???  Christianity bringing sustained global civilization???

 

My view on the coming Age of Aquarius, just defined in general approximate terms as the next two millennia, is that the moral essence of Christianity as found in the Gospels provides numerous key ideas that will be essential to sustain planetary security and stability. 

But keeping anything that is incompatible with scientific knowledge is a path to corruption and collapse. 

So the Aquarian sieve, sorting the wheat from the tares in the terms of Matt 13:24-30, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Parable_of_the_Weeds sees the enemy as the orthodox church.  The good seed was sowed by the philosophical astronomer priests who saw the zodiac precession framework of time, but this was too complex for ancient politics, so it was banned from view as heresy.  The original cosmic vision was so intrinsic to Christian faith that it could not be eliminated, and instead it intermingled with the weeds sowed by the devil that appeared as the false belief in the historical Jesus.  The corrupted state of the world meant that the dominant false beliefs would have to continue until the end of the age, ie to the transition to the Age of Aquarius, when the harvest would enable a paradigm shift in which the true history is revealed.

[Joshpantera]

1 hour ago, Robert_Tulip said:

Hi Josh, yes you are absolutely correct. My argument is that a transformed future Christianity can return to its authentic roots in a way that will make it compatible with evidence and logic, and open up the power of its ethical message for the modern world.

 

Well, this makes me think of neo-paganism. It sounds like a christian rendition, a neo-gnostic christianity. 

 

1 hour ago, Robert_Tulip said:

As with modern science, we should believe nothing in the Bible that lacks external corroboration.  For the New Testament, that boils down to accepting only the existence of Pilate, Caiaphas and Herod in Palestine, as attested by independent sources, but accepting none of the content about Jesus or Paul except as pure parable.

 

Sort of like neo-pagans who may be atheist or agnostic and don't accept the old paganism in literalistic terms? And don't take the deities literally and what not. 

 

The above is a very reasonable approach to the bible as far as I'm concerned. I'm content to accept it all as mythology and not take much of it literally at all, unless demonstrated as such. Which, at this point, isn't even possible to do. It just isn't demonstrable where historicity of jesus and the disciples are concerned. 

 

1 hour ago, Robert_Tulip said:

The systematic removal of the original mystery astronomy appears to have been a strategic and tactical decision by the Church Fathers in their efforts to build Christianity as a mass movement that would undermine the moral legitimacy of the Empire.

 

It has been my opinion that it started out as a type of mystery school. It went out to the common people, or the masses. Once out to the masses, it fell under the accusation of divulging the solar mysteries to the public. A capital crime. For which christians faced persecution and consequence. Although greatly exaggerated by christians. And it was dumbed down with a strong emphasis on exoteric, rather than esoteric presentation. Which was the literalistic way of presenting and interpreting the mythological symbolism. It became state sanctioned and went on to spread throughout Europe and abroad. 

 

Now here we are in 2020, you in Australia and me in the US. Both of us trying to reverse engineer what exactly happened and how it actually started. 

 

2 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

So the Aquarian sieve, sorting the wheat from the tares in the terms of Matt 13:24-30, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Parable_of_the_Weeds sees the enemy as the orthodox church.  The good seed was sowed by the philosophical astronomer priests who saw the zodiac precession framework of time, but this was too complex for ancient politics, so it was banned from view as heresy.  The original cosmic vision was so intrinsic to Christian faith that it could not be eliminated, and instead it intermingled with the weeds sowed by the devil that appeared as the false belief in the historical Jesus.  The corrupted state of the world meant that the dominant false beliefs would have to continue until the end of the age, ie to the transition to the Age of Aquarius, when the harvest would enable a paradigm shift in which the true history is revealed.

 

I doubt I'm the only one seeing this, but the above treads into where you would likely face orthodox christians calling you the anti-christ for preaching the message above. The above insinuating believing in jesus historically, is itself the "anti" of what the original "christ" message actually was!!!

 

And it's quite clever, really. You've turned it right around on them. They are under the influence of the anti-christ, and have been for centuries and centuries on end. We're talking about a reign of this false belief lasting for centuries, not months or years. And wouldn't that be something, if there came a time where the truth of all of this speculative history could be revealed. 

 

If it could all be firmed up, that falls in line with the idea in revelation that those who thought they had it right all along, were wrong the entire time: 

 

50 ^gand throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place ^gthere will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

---

2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft ^trose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and ^uthe sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.

---

20 And the beast was captured, and with it ^gthe false prophet ^hwho in its presence¹ had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who ⁱworshiped its image. These two were ^jthrown alive into the lake of ^kfire that burns with sulfur.

---

10 and the devil ^lwho had deceived them was ^mthrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where ⁿthe beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Joshpantera]

The very people who have crammed these types of verses and threats down all of our throats over the years, being the morons in question who followed a false belief the entire time!!!!

 

Time, times, and half a time, as it were. 

 

One world age. Two world ages. And half a world age. Covering the astrological ages of taurus, aries, pisces, and aquarius. Exactly "1/3" of the constellations that make up the total Great Year, or precession of the equinoxes. Time and again in revelation, 1/3 is mentioned. Four world ages equal 1/3 of the total 12 world ages in a Great Year cycle.

 

This all has the potential to come together as a complete re-interpretation of the entire thing. Daniel and Revelation. Where you would have to fight back at everyone who calls the Gnostic way, "anti-christ." 

 

 

[Robert_Tulip]

On 10/21/2020 at 3:42 PM, Joshpantera said:

This sounds a lot like Laird Scranton's original book, "Hidden Meanings: a study on the founding symbols of civilization" https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Meanings-Laird-Scranton/dp/1401088767

I have his first two books in my personal library. Very interesting concepts, if true.

This ancient aliens topic is a diversion from the main theme of the thread, but it is a worthy topic in its own right so I will follow it up in a new thread.  The connection with precession is that the apparent knowledge of precession, as something that current beliefs do not accept, is similar to the range of ancient technologies that are hard to explain as having arisen from known methods.  Unfortunately, the prevailing fallacious logic for such topics is to assume that conventional explanations are true, and therefore to just ignore evidence that does not fit, and disparage anyone who asks about it.  So there is a culture of timidity around these topics, similar to how heretics were bullied into silence in the past. That is a big problem. 

 

On 10/21/2020 at 3:42 PM, Joshpantera said:

Teachers coming down from the stars and setting up civilization in the oldest cases. The symbols of the most primitive mythologies having multiple meanings. The myths passing down to newer developing cultures and then branching off and hybridizing over time. Leading from Sumer and Egypt, down line into Judaism and eventually Christianity - as the crow flies. 

One thing that made me wonder about the possibility of aliens was seeing an ancient Egyptian sarcophagus with a drawing like an alien in an exhibition from the Louvre Museum visiting Australia in 2006. I took a photo of a similar sarcophagus in the British Museum when I visited there in 2014.  It reminds me of the Ibis head god Thoth, and made me wonder if it could have been a realistic drawing of a visiting alien.  If anyone has a better explanation let me know.  This is a tangent to the precession theme, so please wait for the new thread on ancient aliens, with the photo.

On 10/21/2020 at 3:42 PM, Joshpantera said:

But my perspective of this transmission of mythic symbolism is quite different than your take.  By the time these symbols and myths made their way down stream to Christianity, or more importantly, Gnostic Christianity, prior to the orthodox take over - they would have been fragmented and little more than a primitive rendition of whatever they started out as in ancient Sumer, Egypt, and elsewhere. The journey between mysterious origins to Judaism and finally Christianity looks like a digressing, as opposed to progressing transmission through time. 

How I see it is that the secret mystery wisdom that formed the original vision of Jesus Christ as allegory for the sun connected to an unbroken oral lineage of imaginative mythology stretching back many thousands of years, in which the initiates knew full well that their stories were allegory not literal.  The shattering of this enlightened allegorical vision by the Greco-Roman alliance of pen and sword left us with the fragmentary impoverished vision expressed in the literal reading of the Bible with its claim that God is a personal entity. 

 

However, it is far from clear that the Bible authors shared this enfeebled literal outlook.  Rather, it appears they used the public text as an exoteric popular introduction to an esoteric secret mystery religion, grounded in solar mythology of precession and resulting zodiac ages.  This hypothesis invites us to analyse the text to see how such an enlightened method could be concealed within it.

 

On 10/21/2020 at 3:42 PM, Joshpantera said:

Nevertheless, I find all of this content interesting to discuss and consider. What you are talking about doesn't seem at all relevant to what we know as, "Christianity," today. So something would have to give. "Gnostic Christianity" would have to rise up again, or something. Otherwise, how in the world is something that is considered by most orthodox christians to be heretical supposed to represent Christianity here and now?  That's a big hurdle to climb, isn't it? 

I see this material as entirely relevant to Christianity, by looking beneath its surface delusions to uncover its original motive power.  As with the Protestant Reformation, a new vision is needed.  The Reformation ended a long period of corruption in which people manipulated religion to serve worldly needs.  The Reformers such as Luther and Calvin began a path toward insistence on logical coherence in faith.  They only walked part of the way down this path, because they accepted a number of false assumptions, such as the existence of Jesus, God, heaven and hell, and the ability to perform miracles.  The new reformation that I am proposing is grounded in modern philosophy, rejecting all assumptions that confine our outlook into a narrow channel of belief.  Instead we should ask what it might mean to build a coherent wholistic perspective that recognises the interconnectedness of all things as the ground of authentic religion.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Very interesting discussion! 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

23 hours ago, Weezer said:

Very interesting discussion! 

And I am looking forward to more on ancient aliens. 

[Robert_Tulip]

2 hours ago, Weezer said:

And I am looking forward to more on ancient aliens. 

See new thread - 

 

[Robert_Tulip]

On 9/28/2020 at 8:13 AM, Joshpantera said:

The big kicker here is that I have often wondered what in the world to expect from the next change???

It is hard for me to keep up with all the interesting responses in this thread!  So now going back nearly a month to this great question from Josh.

 

The point in this concept of “the next change” is that we can find material in both scientific and spiritual cosmologies that can help us to predict and construct the future of our planet.  Most material on this agenda in popular religion is garbage, due to its acceptance of supernatural mythology.  So a first goal should be to ensure analysis is compatible with modern scientific knowledge.  That means that ideas that come from religion or astrology or other folk traditions need to be treated as allegory, serving more as an explanatory mythological narrative than a literal discovery, and have to explicitly be tied to an empirical basis.

 

“The next change” means a shift in the prevailing paradigm of understanding the world. My view is that the world needs a triple paradigm shift, addressing cosmology, culture and climate.

 

Cosmology in the current framework of astronomy examines the big questions of the origin and destiny of the universe.  That is obviously immensely important, but it is very difficult to connect that scale with human time scales.  Cosmology needs to address how our planet connects to the universe, a terrestrial cosmology, grounding our understanding of our planetary future in orbital dynamics, and then examine what such a wholistic integrated planetary vision means for cultural identity.

 

Our discussion here on cultural evolution has looked at some rather wild analysis of Vedic mythology, the Age of Aquarius, and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The underlying rational connection is that the old Indian myth of the Yuga predicts an ascending cultural cycle over the next ten thousand years, and this matches directly to both the underlying orbital dynamics of planetary cycles and to Christian eschatology, providing a coherent long term predictive framework.  This is an amazing and mind bending claim, very slow to percolate through, but very important in constructing a story of a positive hopeful vision for the future, with good potential to help sort the wheat from the weeds to reformulate concepts of good and evil.  I see a rigorous empirical scepticism about all religious claims as an essential part of this cultural shift.  At the same time it is essential to see how mythology retains immense value for its rich stories of human cultural heritage and identity, so religious stories can be seen in terms of their ethical meaning for our world today.

 

These changes needed in cosmology and culture are quite deep-seated, slow and abstract, but are important to construct a framework to understand the paradigm shift needed in global climate management.   The risk of climate collapse from global warming is the immediate security peril facing the planet.  This existential threat is currently largely ignored in prevailing politics in terms of practical investment at scale.  This is a major interest of mine, seeing transformation of carbon dioxide into useful products at gigatonne scale as the core priority.  My view is that the best way to do that would be to develop large scale ocean based algae production.

[Robert_Tulip]

I will give a public lecture tomorrow (Sunday 1 Nov) on Astronomy in the Bible.  Unfortunately for Americans the time zone puts it at about 4am, but I hope it will be available as a youtube recording.  Link is https://ascm.org.au/civicrm/event/info?id=52&reset=1&fbclid=IwAR01T9RVQRkZ25BKja3PMT3ZCIlQUzVtLGR0hKA-3gMPYfMbn6Li0Vs9yyg

[Robert_Tulip]

Here is the recording of my discussion on astronomy in the Bible https://youtu.be/5yqV8FHKTTc

[Robert_Tulip]

Continuing my work on Zodiac Ages as the main framework of time that structures Biblical cosmology, the Organisation of Professional Astrologers recently published a short essay I wrote for them on the astronomical framework of zodiac ages, explaining my research on how precession of the equinox relates to the total structure of the solar system.  With apologies to readers here who may find astrology repugnant, I hope some will find this an interesting analysis.

 https://www.opaastrology.org/PUBLIC2020DECEM.pdf

[Robert_Tulip]

Here is a current summation of ideas that I consider important.  I would welcome discussion on any of these points.

 

Principles of New Age Christianity

1.       An ethic of truth, love and peace can sustain universal abundance.

2.       Christianity can reform to support logic and evidence as the highest moral values.

3.       The deep magic of our universe is more complex than current science can explain.

4.       The scientific idea of complexity justifies the spiritual concept of the grace of God as the mysterious ground of the sacred.

5.       The sacred grace of God is revealed in ecological and cultural complexity and order.

6.       Openness to the mystery of God is compatible with scientific method.

7.       The laws of nature provide the consistent order of the cosmic state of grace.

8.       Our world is fallen from grace into depravity and corruption.

9.       The redemption of the world needs a path back to a state of grace, to prevent looming planetary risks of conflict and collapse.

10.   The story of Jesus Christ in the Bible provides the sublime ethical ideal of human life and the vision of how our planet can be transformed through connection to God.

11.   God can be imagined in scientific terms as the natural conditions for sustained human flourishing, revealed in the stable cyclic order of our planetary orbit.

12.   Attunement to the patterns of deep time is a way to find God.

13.   The message of Christ shows how the planet can be saved by regarding the least of the world as Jesus Christ, giving new meaning to Paul’s teaching that we are saved by grace through faith.

14.   The Bible should be read for its meaning today, not as literal history.

15.   Traditional church theology is corrupted by the world, putting comforting supernatural fantasy and political stability over rational understanding.

16.   Heaven and hell are imaginative visions for our planetary trajectory, with or without God.

17.   Apocalyptic imagery illustrates the threats facing the world, including from climate change, that could arise without a paradigm shift to develop an integrated vision of science, politics and religion.

18.   A key message in the Gospels is that the public story is entirely symbolic, while the real meaning involves a coherent deeper understanding.

19.   The authors of the Gospels constructed their vision as allegory for a coherent astronomical vision based on observation of the slow movement of the stars by precession.

20.   Jesus Christ personifies the sun, as the true source of light and life for our planet.

21.   The imagery of solar mythology helps to put Christian teachings in a scientific framework.

22.   This entire vision was unfortunately suppressed by the corrupt politics of Christendom.

23.   Reconstructing the grand and orderly astronomical vision of the early church offers a path to understand what it might mean to live in a state of grace.

24.   Ancient astronomy directly correlates the Gospel message with observed Zodiac Ages, defined by the annual date when the sun moves into the northern hemisphere, shifting the March equinox point into successive constellations.

25.   By this vision, Jesus Christ was imagined as avatar of the zodiac ages of Pisces and Aquarius.

26.   The Gospel story corresponds to the dawn of the zodiac Age of Pisces, while the imagined second coming of Jesus Christ is the dawn of the Age of Aquarius.

27.   The Chi Rho Cross symbolises the movement of the equinox into Pisces at the time of Christ.

28.   The equinox crossed the first fish of Pisces on 16 September, 21 AD, an event that the ancients could predict for centuries to within decadal accuracy, giving a basis for messianic prophecy.

29.   This astronomical vision provides a scientific basis for systematic Christian theology.

30.   Bible stories that reveal this hidden message include the Gospel miracles of the loaves and fishes as allegory for the new celestial axis, the passion story of the upper room as allegory for the visible stars and the Age of Aquarius, and numerous images in the Revelation, which show a coherent and simple understanding of precession as the framework of time.

31.   The original Biblical theology of the New Testament had essential primary influence from non-Western traditions from India, Egypt and Mesopotamia, concealed by Western censorship.

32.   Buddhist monastic traditions in Egypt had a primary forgotten role in constructing the messianic vision of Christ.

33.   Integration of these diverse mythologies with traditions from Israel and Greece produced the Gospel narrative. 

34.   Recognising these suppressed factors in Christian theologies is essential to understand Biblical ethics and vision.

[Robert_Tulip]

In reading the Bible I frequently find texts that can be interpreted as accurately describing the precession of the equinox as the fundamental framework of our planetary existence.  One I just found today is John 2:15 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/2-15.htm

Quote

Jesus made a whip from some ropes and chased them all out of the Temple. He drove out the sheep and cattle, scattered the money changers’ coins over the floor, and turned over their tables.

In terms of the precession of the equinox, Jesus is avatar of the Zodiac Age of Pisces the fishes, which began at the alleged time of his life and followed the Ages of Aries (sheep) and Taurus (cattle). 

 

This text directly coheres with the interpretation that Christianity was invented to describe how the new Age of Pisces would establish a new covenant to replace the old covenants of Aries (Moses/Abraham) and Taurus (Adam/Noah).

 

By having Jesus drive the sheep and cattle out of the temple in Jerusalem, John's image provides a parable for how in the 'heavenly Jerusalem', the visible heavens of the stars, the new age of the fish would replace the previous ages of the sheep and cattle. 

 

This reading coheres completely with stories about the heavenly Jerusalem in Revelation, especially the twelve foundation jewels of the holy city which by old tradition match to the zodiac ages beginning with the Age of Pisces.

 

Turning the tables in the temple is a famous story that symbolises how Jesus was imagined as bringing upheaval to prevailing religious practice.  This new cosmic interpretation of this verse suggests that the real original church, the mystical philosophers who invented Christ, saw this upheaval as far more profound than getting rid of livestock.  By encoding the real observation of the precession of the ages, the story of Jesus removing sheep and cattle from the temple symbolises a transformation of the whole prevailing cosmology.

[Joshpantera]

That's something I haven't noticed in John. But as I was saying earlier, when that apologist challenged me to find anything astrotheological in John, I saw it all over the place when reading the first chapter. That's how I noticed the reference: 'he who comes after me is greater than me because he was before me,' reference. And then ran it by Robert Price to see what he thought. And he was interested. 

 

The idea is that Aquarius comes before Pisces annually but Pisces comes before Aquarius per precession. Pisces is greater than Aquarius because he was before Aquarius. Even though annually Pisces comes after Aquarius. This is at the beginning of John. The writer just sort of lays it out there. For the reading astronomer - priest types and peers, I would assume. 

 

On 3/3/2021 at 4:47 PM, Robert_Tulip said:

In terms of the precession of the equinox, Jesus is avatar of the Zodiac Age of Pisces the fishes, which began at the alleged time of his life and followed the Ages of Aries (sheep) and Taurus (cattle). 

 

This text directly coheres with the interpretation that Christianity was invented to describe how the new Age of Pisces would establish a new covenant to replace the old covenants of Aries (Moses/Abraham) and Taurus (Adam/Noah).

 

This looks directly behind after having gone through the looking forward perspective I mentioned above. Forward towards Aquarius and then a derogatory jab at the previous ages and those who still cling to them after they've become outdated celestially. 

 

Coincidentally running out the 'sheep and cattle' money changers coincides with the fact that the biblical timeline comes from the age of Taurus and transitions to Aries. That's the old scriptures in a nut shell. Following  ahead are the new testaments statements about the new age of Pisces with added projections towards Aquarius and moving forward in celestial time. 

 

What's up for interpretation, however, is of course the interpretation of such things. We will likely never know what the writers meant exactly. We can piece together references to the zodiacal ages but beyond that, it's hard to say what their motives were. We have to look at the great year models and make assumptions. 

 

Generally speaking, I agree with the idea that christianity was invented to describe how the new age of Pisces would establish a new covenant. Based on seeing references to precession, the age of Pisces, and talk of going beyond Moses and the Law. That is very straight forward in the story line. The mount of transfiguration probably being the most obvious example of the new covenant passing on suggestion. 

 

But, I will add, THIS is part of why I often look at the modern situation in the same way. 

 

Pisces is ending now. We're facing the same thing that people living just before the common era were facing. You look at the sky. You observe that during the spring equinox the sun is not going to be rising in the same zodiacal constellation very much longer. If you know what you're looking at, this is all very obvious and straight forward. 

 

What happened? 

 

The old religion wasn't revised or updated. People seem to have started out with that idea in mind but it didn't stick. Judaism didn't reform. Instead, christianity sprung out of a failed Judaism reformation. And the old religion persecuted the new religion to some degree, for a while. 

 

The most obvious expectation, in my view, is that even if some people tried to reform christianity today, it's a product of the Piscean age. It may not die completely, but it will become irrelevant going forward by this 'estimation of comparison.' The christians aren't any more likely to change to new ideas now than the Jews were 2,000 years ago. Which leaves one to ponder how such a thing would likely play out again now? Old traditions and habits die hard! 

 

An Aquarian age religious movement would likely have to break ties with the past and come out as something new. Not christianity, and nothing to do with outdated term of "annointed." That was Pisces. Aquarius is something else. Taurus wasn't Aries, and Aries wasn't Pisces. The great year represents change. Ascension and descending. We're ascending up and out of the dark age periods according to the celestial time table. Everything about the scenario points towards change and newness. Following a great deal of controversy and conflict. 

 

And I think there's still a lot of work ahead for you, Robert. In the end it may not land on you continuing on as christian. I think that you'll eventually want to move beyond it. Just look at the myths. The christians regarded themselves as Jews, at first, at least as the myth reads. Then it stopped after a while and changed. They were no longer messianic Jews, but Christians.  I think there's something to be gleaned from this. 

[Robert_Tulip]

On 3/6/2021 at 2:13 PM, Joshpantera said:

That's something I haven't noticed in John.

Yes, I only found this verse about removing the sheep and cattle last week. It is another superb precessional motif, up there with the loaves and fishes. I had the chance to preach at church yesterday, and the lectionary included both this ‘driving out sheep and cattle’ text from John and the Psalm 19 statement that the heavens pour forth speech.  In my sermon, for the first time I explained my precession hypothesis, generating quite a stunned silence in the congregation. You might like to read it, noting that I deliberately leave it unclear whether the Jesus as described is real or fictional.

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But as I was saying earlier, when that apologist challenged me to find anything astrotheological in John, I saw it all over the place when reading the first chapter.

·       I wrote a commentary some years ago on astrotheology in John’s Prologue, producing quite an interesting dialogue - https://www.booktalk.org/astrotheology-in-john-s-prologue-t7589.html

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That's how I noticed the reference: 'he who comes after me is greater than me because he was before me,' reference. And then ran it by Robert Price to see what he thought. And he was interested.   The idea is that Aquarius comes before Pisces annually but Pisces comes before Aquarius per precession. Pisces is greater than Aquarius because he was before Aquarius. Even though annually Pisces comes after Aquarius. This is at the beginning of John. The writer just sort of lays it out there. For the reading astronomer - priest types and peers, I would assume. 

·       Another astrotheological interpretation of this ‘before and after’ line from John 1:30 uses the fact that Saint John’s Day is the first shorter day after the summer solstice while Christ’s Day is the first longer day after the winter solstice.  It refers to the key markers of the constant annual cycle of the seasons, with summer both before and after winter. 

·       By the way, I noticed that Leonardo Da Vinci used the Aquarius = John and Pisces = Christ motif for the design of his famous painting The Baptism of Christ, modelling both John and Christ on the stars of their constellations, as I also discussed ten years ago at Booktalk and Cosmoquest.

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This looks directly behind after having gone through the looking forward perspective I mentioned above. Forward towards Aquarius and then a derogatory jab at the previous ages and those who still cling to them after they've become outdated celestially. 

That is exactly right.  John 1:30 has already provided a veiled reference to the zodiac age framework of the then far future Age of Aquarius.  Running out the Aries and Taurus symbols from the temple coheres directly with that.

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Coincidentally running out the 'sheep and cattle' money changers coincides with the fact that the biblical timeline comes from the age of Taurus and transitions to Aries. That's the old scriptures in a nut shell. Following  ahead are the new testaments statements about the new age of Pisces with added projections towards Aquarius and moving forward in celestial time.

I understand why you call it coincidence, but I prefer to see this correlation as deliberate design.  A secret mystery wisdom society had understood this accurate astronomical framework of planetary time probably for thousands of years before Christ, conveying it only from mouth to ear in line with the memory convention of initiated secret oral history.  Part of the great tragedy of Christendom was that the Empire was so thoroughly successful in extirpating this cosmic explanation, with it surviving only in fugitive traces like these ones in John.

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What's up for interpretation, however, is of course the interpretation of such things. We will likely never know what the writers meant exactly. We can piece together references to the zodiacal ages but beyond that, it's hard to say what their motives were. We have to look at the great year models and make assumptions. 

·       Just accepting that the Great Year physical framework is a logical and elegant explanation of Bible texts like these ones in John, the loaves and fishes in all the Gospels, and the twelve jewels in Revelation, would be a massive start. 

·       The blockages to even discussing this hypothesis are immense, involving what George Orwell called ‘crimestop’, the ability to stop a conversation once it is detected that it is trending in a heretical direction.

·       In my view the most plausible motive for the construction of the Christ Myth was to imagine a long war between good and evil.

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Generally speaking, I agree with the idea that christianity was invented to describe how the new age of Pisces would establish a new covenant. Based on seeing references to precession, the age of Pisces, and talk of going beyond Moses and the Law. That is very straight forward in the story line. The mount of transfiguration probably being the most obvious example of the new covenant passing on suggestion. 

·       This vision of the Age of Pisces raises a key theme about the Gospel of John, the role of belief.  Traditional astrology from ancient times has seen belief as the core theme of the sign of Pisces.  The word believe/belief appears more than one hundred times in John’s Gospel, with key texts such as the famous 3:16 – ‘whosoever believes will have eternal life’ and 20:31 ‘these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God’. 

·       Plato had explained that belief is an inferior form of cognition compared to knowledge, a view that remains central to scientific thought.  But belief is superior at mobilising a mass movement, through mythical symbolism.  The secret Christian philosophers saw that the world was not ready for Jesus Christ as philosopher king, with teachings grounded in knowledge (Gnosis), and that mass psychology would have to evolve for a whole age, educated through mythological belief, before a knowledge-based approach to religion would become socially viable.

If the systematic theology of the inventors of Christianity was based on the astrology of zodiac ages, a plausible interpretation is that they saw the thematic evolution of faith as running from the Age of Taurus (theme “have”) through the Ages of Aries (theme “am”) and Pisces (believe) to the coming new Age of Aquarius where the guiding theme is knowledge.  That suggests the authors such as John imagined the Second Coming as a time when knowledge would replace belief as the guiding theme of social organisation, a model that matches directly to actual social evolution with the gradual replacement of religion by science as the ground of ethics.

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But, I will add, THIS is part of why I often look at the modern situation in the same way.  Pisces is ending now. We're facing the same thing that people living just before the common era were facing. You look at the sky. You observe that during the spring equinox the sun is not going to be rising in the same zodiacal constellation very much longer. If you know what you're looking at, this is all very obvious and straight forward. 

·       No Josh, it is far from obvious or straight forward, except at a very simplistic level. 

·       The points you raise here point to a magical astrological worldview that is broadly rejected by modern science.  I have been working for some decades on how to make this complex material suitable for public discussion in a way that is scientifically plausible. 

·       A first point is that precession is so slow and obscure that most people cannot imagine it could possibly have any effect on us. An answer to that is to point out that precession caused the sea level to rise by more than three hundred feet, flooding the earth more than ten thousand years ago, in combination with equally miniscule orbital factors that together are recognised in climate science as the Milankovitch Theory.

Next, the orbital factors point to a slow gradual warming of the planet over the next ten thousand years, except that this whole highly sensitive orbital pattern that has governed the last three million years has been destroyed by our carbon emissions. This correlates to the idea that we are now somehow entering a new millennial period of gradual spiritual improvement. That is a rather mythological suggestion that again is far from obvious but that has much to commend it as a way to put Christian eschatology into a more scientific framework.   

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What happened?  The old religion wasn't revised or updated. People seem to have started out with that idea in mind but it didn't stick. Judaism didn't reform. Instead, christianity sprung out of a failed Judaism reformation. And the old religion persecuted the new religion to some degree, for a while.  The most obvious expectation, in my view, is that even if some people tried to reform christianity today, it's a product of the Piscean age. It may not die completely, but it will become irrelevant going forward by this 'estimation of comparison.' The christians aren't any more likely to change to new ideas now than the Jews were 2,000 years ago.

Where I disagree here is that the astrotheological interpretation of the Bible indicates that the authors were well aware that the Pisces Age would be a period of degraded spirituality, as indicated by the core myth that when an enlightened person turned up the response was crucifixion.  They built into the mythology the idea that the dawn of the Age of Aquarius would see the coming of Christ in power, where the seven works of mercy of Matt 25:31 ff would become the core of world politics. The upper room text in Luke is a parable for the heavens, and the man with the water jug is the obvious clue.  Similarly, Matt 24:14 insists that everyone on the planet will have to have heard of Jesus Christ before rule by Christ will become possible, treating the least of the world as though they were divine.  That does not at all imply anything supernatural, rather it just means that people will come to see that the principles of the Gospels offer a very high and transformative moral vision for our planet, as long as all the supernatural weeds can be burnt at harvest time.

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Which leaves one to ponder how such a thing would likely play out again now? Old traditions and habits die hard!  An Aquarian age religious movement would likely have to break ties with the past and come out as something new. Not christianity, and nothing to do with outdated term of "annointed." That was Pisces. Aquarius is something else. Taurus wasn't Aries, and Aries wasn't Pisces. The great year represents change. Ascension and descending. We're ascending up and out of the dark age periods according to the celestial time table. Everything about the scenario points towards change and newness. Following a great deal of controversy and conflict. 

·       There is nothing necessarily outdated about the concept of anointing, except when it insists on supernatural meaning.  Anointing can be understood to mean public recognition that a person has a high level of wisdom and enlightenment.  The word Christ means anointed, and is extensively used in the Septuagint.  But the process of trust for anointing obviously has to be completely different in a modern democratic context compared to the monarchic systems of ancient times.

·       Evolution works by cumulative adaptation, not by revolution.  That applies to culture as much as to genetic nature, but at a far faster pace.  Looking at the millennial evolution of humanity, the New Age of Aquarius has to build upon the evolutionary progress that occurred in the old Age of Pisces, which has now become corrupted and worn out. 

·       The change required is a bit like the old Chinese idea of the dynastic cycle of the mandate of heaven, whereby new vigorous dynasties regularly arose to replace rulers who had gradually become incompetent. 

However, the greatness of Christianity consists in it being a two-age theory, or at least 1.5, with the seventh millennium imagined as the first thousand years of the Age of Aquarius, as a time of planetary repair after the havoc of the fall.

Quote

And I think there's still a lot of work ahead for you, Robert. In the end it may not land on you continuing on as christian. I think that you'll eventually want to move beyond it. Just look at the myths. The christians regarded themselves as Jews, at first, at least as the myth reads. Then it stopped after a while and changed. They were no longer messianic Jews, but Christians.  I think there's something to be gleaned from this. 

·       I would certainly like to be able to discuss this material in public, without it automatically being rejected out of hand. That is as much about my ability to express ideas in a persuasive and plausible way as about the pervasive bigotry and ignorance of contemporary culture.

·       One text that I particularly like is Rev 12:7-10, the war in heaven between Michael and Satan.  I interpret the angelic forces as fighting for the New Age of Aquarius, against the demonic forces that try to continue the Old Age of Pisces.  Christianity will be split down the middle, with accurate reading of the Bible lining up with the New Age and the obsolete corrupt church reading lining up with the Old Age.

That means the agenda is to reform Christianity to make it cohere with evidence and logic, a project that will be opposed vigorously by those who hold emotional fantasy and social control to be more important than truth.

[Joshpantera]

15 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

I understand why you call it coincidence, but I prefer to see this correlation as deliberate design. 

 

I think it was deliberate design as well, I mostly being sarcastic about the coincidence comment. It's probably too much of a coincidence. 

 

15 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

Just accepting that the Great Year physical framework is a logical and elegant explanation of Bible texts like these ones in John, the loaves and fishes in all the Gospels, and the twelve jewels in Revelation, would be a massive start. 

·       The blockages to even discussing this hypothesis are immense, involving what George Orwell called ‘crimestop’, the ability to stop a conversation once it is detected that it is trending in a heretical direction.

 

This is what I mean about the content going beyond christianity, as christianity was the case of going beyond contemporary judaism. These blockages from christians now aren't too different from the blockages of contemporary jewish authorities then. 

 

15 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

No Josh, it is far from obvious or straight forward, except at a very simplistic level. 

·       The points you raise here point to a magical astrological worldview that is broadly rejected by modern science. 

 

I only stated the facts. The Spring Equinox sunrise has shifted to 2,000 years through the constellation of Pisces. No astrology involved in this summary. We're talking about the astronomy of sunrises against the ecliptic. And it is obvious. We don't rely on the naked eye. We can go look it up on the astronomy software. You know what I mean. 

 

15 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

Similarly, Matt 24:14 insists that everyone on the planet will have to have heard of Jesus Christ before rule by Christ will become possible, treating the least of the world as though they were divine.  That does not at all imply anything supernatural, rather it just means that people will come to see that the principles of the Gospels offer a very high and transformative moral vision for our planet, as long as all the supernatural weeds can be burnt at harvest time.

 

You have a good argument there. So what you're claiming is that both Pisces and Aquarius were envisioned as having the same avatar applied to both world ages? Since they had the jesus character mentioning Aquarius so much, maybe that is the way the writers saw it. 

 

But they were all supernaturalists. The astrotheologists and everyone. There was no non supernaturalist option at the time.

 

So you are straining on that point. Now that atheists exist in the contemporary period, sure, some one could re-interpret the old supernaturalist's mythology in a naturalist way like you have. But to go further and then claim that THEY were naturalist's and not supernaturalist's takes on an entire burden of proof requirement that I doubt you could satisfy, to be honest. That is a tall order. 

 

The gnostics were very supernatural. And the ancient Buddhists were not likely as atheist friendly as some sects are today. But I'd have to look at that much closer. 

 

15 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

Looking at the millennial evolution of humanity, the New Age of Aquarius has to build upon the evolutionary progress that occurred in the old Age of Pisces, which has now become corrupted and worn out. 

·       The change required is a bit like the old Chinese idea of the dynastic cycle of the mandate of heaven, whereby new vigorous dynasties regularly arose to replace rulers who had gradually become incompetent. 

However, the greatness of Christianity consists in it being a two-age theory, or at least 1.5, with the seventh millennium imagined as the first thousand years of the Age of Aquarius, as a time of planetary repair after the havoc of the fall.

 

My only point here is that I'm interpreting the age of Pisces as introducing the "christ" myth specifically because I think the writers were referring to the first age of the new great year as the "annointed age." Pisces is the annointed. Aquarius is age #2, following the "annointed" age. 

 

But your argument about the first and second coming factor, along with Revelation, does seem to indicate that the writers had an idea of a two-age theory, or more specifically 1.5 world ages. Mostly going on the "time, times, and half a time" reference in Revelation. Which most christians interpret as 3.5 months or years, when, place in this greater context of astrotheology, could well have been referring to 3.5 entire world ages: 

 

Time (Taurus), Times (Aries and Pisces), and half a time (half of Aquarius)

 

But whatever they may have thought or intended, my speculation still remains. If the current generation rejects changes of interpretation, well, then regardless of what 2,000 year old astronomer - priests thought or intended, a new group would have to break out of the old by necessity. 

 

Because as you've already stated, neither science advocates nor contemporary christians want to hear any of this. You're going around talking about this to christians and they readily reject it. That's not very different than say, Paul or someone trying to reason with the ancient jews that they had it all wrong. In fact, it's basically an identical scenario. 

 

I need to find the verse in question, but I do remember my grandfather, before passing away, wanting me to look at something to do with jesus claiming a "new name." Giving to us a "new name." And I think it was in Revelation. I need to look for that again. Because it seems relevant to this discussion. 

 

A look at the context may be in order if I'm remembering this correctly. 

 

 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

15 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

One text that I particularly like is Rev 12:7-10, the war in heaven between Michael and Satan.  I interpret the angelic forces as fighting for the New Age of Aquarius, against the demonic forces that try to continue the Old Age of Pisces.  Christianity will be split down the middle, with accurate reading of the Bible lining up with the New Age and the obsolete corrupt church reading lining up with the Old Age.

That means the agenda is to reform Christianity to make it cohere with evidence and logic, a project that will be opposed vigorously by those who hold emotional fantasy and social control to be more important than truth.

 

This basically places you into a similar seat as in the apostle Paul myth! 

 

Trying to reform those stubborn and ignorant christians, as he was trying to reform those stubborn and ignorant jews - as the myth reads. This is basically identical. In the process, what seems more likely to happen? 

 

Convincing them to see the light or having to move on with similar thinkers and evolve into something "new?"  

 

 

 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

I'm piecing together some of the fragments of ole pop's bible study on the names of god. And the issue of a "new name" for jesus formulating in Revelation. What ole pop was unaware of, however, was the astrotheology of Revelation and the fact that these early chapters precede what becomes a very heavily referenced and symbolized astrotheological allegory as the chapters continue: 

 

It hints at chapter 2: 

 

¹⁷ Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

 

Then continues into chapter 3: 

 

¹¹ I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. ¹² The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 

[Joshpantera]

Jesus's "new name?" 

 

His people taking on a new name?

 

There's more to it which I haven't reverse engineered yet. By memory, I recall the bible study going off into verses from else where about jesus giving us 'his name.' Because my grandfather looked at me and started saying, Yeshua, X. And then said each of our names behind Yeshua. It made not sense at the time. But I remember it. He kept asking me what I thought about it. As if he didn't know and wanted to see if I did. 

 

Years later and after reflecting on it some more, I figured that it must have something to do with the pantheistic undertones such as found in John 10:30. Where some sort of Brahmanic style god and humanity unity and oneness references are worked in.

 

If there was Buddhist influence, that would make sense of some of these strange passages. And explain the yearning to try and carefully, cautiously, make some pantheistic suggestions in an otherwise jewish monotheistic setting. 

 

But the "new name" issue is even more curious than the pantheistic influence possibility. And would come from the same general source, I would imagine. It's setting out the notion of a 'name change' early on in Revelation and then proceeding to lay out one hell of an elaborate allegory that pretty blatantly outlines precession of the equinox before the writer concludes. 

 

So we're going beyond the age of Pisces, entering the age of Aquarius, and the archetypal hero announces the taking of a "new name." And new names to his followers. The whole thing is very curious. 

 

And whether or not that's what the writer(s) meant, someone could easily pick up on this and use it to suggest going beyond what we know currently as "christianity." And make the transition. Plug in a "new" interpretation of what that possibly means. And leave behind the christians the way that the christians left behind the jews. And label it bible sanctioned to boot.

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Does Revelations make any sense?  I always thought the author was hallucinating. 

[Robert_Tulip]

On 3/10/2021 at 11:17 AM, Joshpantera said:

Content going beyond christianity, as christianity [went] beyond contemporary judaism. These blockages from christians now aren't too different from the blockages of contemporary jewish authorities then. 

·       The New Testament constantly accuses Jews of hypocrisy for failing to adhere to the moral principles in Scripture and instead accepting traditional practices just because they had built up over time, like dental plaque. 

·       The idea is that the prophets had predicted a messiah of the suffering type of Christ, so Jews should welcome JC. 

·       The similar situation today is that the New Testament contains a systematic astral backstory based on precession of the equinox, but this is rejected out of hand by Christians, just as the prophets were rejected by Judaism, because it conflicts with the accreted traditional view.

·       The irony of course is that the New Age idea tries to find the underlying ethical vision within the old way of thought, a vision that adherents of old thinking cannot see

On 3/10/2021 at 11:17 AM, Joshpantera said:

I only stated the facts. The Spring Equinox sunrise has shifted to 2,000 years through the constellation of Pisces. No astrology involved in this summary. We're talking about the astronomy of sunrises against the ecliptic. And it is obvious. We don't rely on the naked eye. We can go look it up on the astronomy software. You know what I mean. 

·       Yes I know what you mean, but it is like saying space-time curvature is obvious to astrophysicists.  Something can be obvious to people who understand it but completely mind-bending and unimaginable to those who don’t.  That is how I see precession.

On 3/10/2021 at 11:17 AM, Joshpantera said:

You have a good argument there. So what you're claiming is that both Pisces and Aquarius were envisioned as having the same avatar applied to both world ages? Since they had the Jesus character mentioning Aquarius so much, maybe that is the way the writers saw it. 

·       That is exactly right, same imaginary Jesus for both ages. The Messiah was imagined by the Gospel authors as connecting the world to the underlying cosmic order of the heavens, and thereby representing heaven on earth.  They saw Jesus as taking exactly the same outlook in both ages, Pisces and Aquarius, but failing in Pisces and succeeding in Aquarius. 

·       The difference is due to the cultural evolution of the world having caught up with the possibility of a messianic vision.  Where the response in the Age of Pisces was crucifixion, the vision is that the response in the Age of Aquarius will be acceptance, but only after significant conflict.

On 3/10/2021 at 11:17 AM, Joshpantera said:

But they were all supernaturalists. The astrotheologists and everyone. There was no non supernaturalist option at the time.

·       I don’t agree they were all supernaturalists.  That is a reading that has been imported back into the texts due to the overwhelming dominance of supernaturalism as the guiding theme of the Age of Pisces. 

·       I have been reading up on the connection between Buddhism and Christianity, and am convinced that the core moral teachings of the Gospels came from Buddhism, which in its enlightened vision has no room for the supernatural.

On 3/10/2021 at 11:17 AM, Joshpantera said:

So you are straining on that point. Now that atheists exist in the contemporary period, sure, some one could re-interpret the old supernaturalist's mythology in a naturalist way like you have. But to go further and then claim that THEY were naturalist's and not supernaturalist's takes on an entire burden of proof requirement that I doubt you could satisfy, to be honest. That is a tall order. 

·       The example I raised from John 2 of the cleansing of the temple of sheep and cattle interpreted as rejecting the old Ages of Aries and Taurus is a great one to show a totally natural way of thinking, interpreting God as reflected totally in the natural order of the cosmos.

·       I do think it is possible to read all the supernatural language in the NT as allegory for a natural vision, in the sense that Christianity was invented as Buddhism for the west.

·       An underlying theme of this Buddhist reading of the Gospels is that the Roman Empire was vastly more evil than anything previously encountered by eastern religion.  So when the Buddhistic ethics attributed to Jesus encountered Roman rule, the story is that the pure enlightened vision of Christ got smashed on the cross.

·       That clash between good and evil is exactly why our planet has degenerated into its current dire apocalyptic situation in relation to climate change, that prevailing thinking is so depraved and deluded that it cannot engage with truth.

·       The mythology of God was needed to build the popular movement of belief, aimed at destroying the moral legitimacy and mandate of Rome.  But I maintain that the underlying thinking behind the Gospel vision was one of pure rational philosophy, with all the supernatural content just included as moral parables for the popular audience.

·       I have previously discussed the story of the Leaven of the Pharisees in Mark 8:14–21, Matthew 16:5–12 and Luke 12:1–3 as a vivid illustration of this concealed method.  The most extraordinary line is Matthew 16:11 where Jesus says, in reference to the feeding of the five thousand, “How do you not understand that I was not telling you about bread?”   Mark 8:18 had similarly said “Having eyes, do you not see? And having ears, do you not hear?’ And do you not remember?

·       The meaning is that the allegedly supernatural miracle is nothing of the sort, but in fact is a parable.  My reading is that the loaves and fishes symbolise the imagined universal abundance available from the New Age where the equinoxes move into Virgo (loaves are the symbol of its main star Spica) and Pisces (fishes).

·       This non-miraculous reading had already been emphasised at Mark 8:12 by Jesus telling the Pharisees immediately after his magic trick that “no sign from heaven will be given to this generation”, although on the surface that is exactly what he just did.  The insistence that this miracle is supernatural is exactly what Jesus castigates as blind, deaf and forgetful.

[Joshpantera]

14 minutes ago, Robert_Tulip said:

That is exactly right, same imaginary Jesus for both ages. The Messiah was imagined by the Gospel authors as connecting the world to the underlying cosmic order of the heavens, and thereby representing heaven on earth.  They saw Jesus as taking exactly the same outlook in both ages, Pisces and Aquarius, but failing in Pisces and succeeding in Aquarius. 

·       The difference is due to the cultural evolution of the world having caught up with the possibility of a messianic vision.  Where the response in the Age of Pisces was crucifixion, the vision is that the response in the Age of Aquarius will be acceptance, but only after significant conflict.

 

I see you drafted this before my recent posts. Having said that, I'll add the content again below what you've written above for some further consideration. 

 

7 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

I'm piecing together some of the fragments of ole pop's bible study on the names of god. And the issue of a "new name" for jesus formulating in Revelation. What ole pop was unaware of, however, was the astrotheology of Revelation and the fact that these early chapters precede what becomes a very heavily referenced and symbolized astrotheological allegory as the chapters continue: 

 

It hints at chapter 2: 

 

¹⁷ Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

 

Then continues into chapter 3: 

 

¹¹ I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. ¹² The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 

 

The issue now is narrow down the idea of a "new name" in Aquarius, which you see as the age in which the avatar is projected to win rather than fail. This seems to have several implications. Including what I keep bringing up about contemporary, Piscean age, what you call doomed to failure, "christianity." 

 

There may be something to the notion that the religion entitled "christianity," isn't meant to continue by that "name." Per this interpretation of the bible. And it doesn't disclose the "new name," either. So it's left open to interpretation or for someone to add in at a later date. 

 

Think about it, the NT writers took the written scriptures of the time, used Midrash, and added their own ideas to what had been previously written. They retold the OT stories in their own way, basically. Which created the new religion, basically. The traditionalist's never accepted it. But newer audiences and converts did. 

 

Aquarius age christianity of philosophical sophistication could well go by a different name entirely. 

[Joshpantera]

24 minutes ago, Robert_Tulip said:

I have been reading up on the connection between Buddhism and Christianity, and am convinced that the core moral teachings of the Gospels came from Buddhism, which in its enlightened vision has no room for the supernatural.

 

I see the connection for sure. But can you prove or demonstrate that the Buddhist influence back then, contemporary to the beginning of the common era, was the atheistic sort? They took the Hindu scriptures and gods and simply turned it from an ethnic to a world religion. Then proselytized abroad.

 

At some point, I realize that an atheistic version of Buddhism was possible. While not all Buddhism is automatically atheistic. So without looking closely at the moment, I see where you could be correct if you can link the specific atheistic type of Buddhism to influence on first and second century Palestine. 

 

They only get to atheism by way of metaphor. There's no god because the gods are metaphorical of the transcendent mystery beyond naming or conceptualizing. It's a very technical, philosophical type of godlessness. Not the simple lack of god belief which in the modern era because what is known as "atheism." And naturalist. They could believe that the Hindu gods were real, but also that they are metaphorical of what is beyond those gods. It's not cut and dry and what they were thinking back then, is it? 

 

33 minutes ago, Robert_Tulip said:

The example I raised from John 2 of the cleansing of the temple of sheep and cattle interpreted as rejecting the old Ages of Aries and Taurus is a great one to show a totally natural way of thinking, interpreting God as reflected totally in the natural order of the cosmos.

·       I do think it is possible to read all the supernatural language in the NT as allegory for a natural vision, in the sense that Christianity was invented as Buddhism for the west.

 

This is good, if you can substantiate the above. There's some road ahead yet to firm up this idea. But I see what it takes to do it and I understand that it isn't impossible. You just have to confirm that the connections did exist contemporary to 1st century Palestine to make it plausible. 

 

37 minutes ago, Robert_Tulip said:

An underlying theme of this Buddhist reading of the Gospels is that the Roman Empire was vastly more evil than anything previously encountered by eastern religion.  So when the Buddhistic ethics attributed to Jesus encountered Roman rule, the story is that the pure enlightened vision of Christ got smashed on the cross.

 

I still follow the idea here. Smashed on the cross of the zodiac, as it were. As allegory for the chi rho cross as the contemporary celestial marker at the ecliptic, taking place as the sun began rise into the constellation of Pisces at the spring equinox. 

 

43 minutes ago, Robert_Tulip said:

This non-miraculous reading had already been emphasised at Mark 8:12 by Jesus telling the Pharisees immediately after his magic trick that “no sign from heaven will be given to this generation”, although on the surface that is exactly what he just did.  The insistence that this miracle is supernatural is exactly what Jesus castigates as blind, deaf and forgetful.

 

These are good points. I follow the logic there too. The loaves and fishes is known in esoteric circles as astrotheological allegory. Manly P Hall lectured on this at the Theosophical Society in the 20th century. And I'm sure Freemason and others understand it in these terms. But here's the thing, the same Freemason's and esoteric's who understand astrotheology and the fact that these stories are metaphor, allegory, and parable, are also still supernaturalist's at the same time - regardless of that interpretation of scripture. 

 

In fact, you can not join in these esoteric groups unless you profess theistic belief. 

 

This is why it's not so cut and dry to simply show that scriptures are allegorical and then conclude that the writers must have been or certainly were naturalists and not supernaturalists. By the same measure someone could claim that Theosophists and Freemasons who understand, and speak in allegorical language or even parable at times, are not supernaturalists. The claim would be false. 

 

This is something that needs more attention. Lot's of hurtles to cross. 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

7 hours ago, Weezer said:

Does Revelations make any sense?  I always thought the author was hallucinating. 

 

Do did I. Until I found my way into the astrotheology analysis. The strange imagery and weird hybrid beasts and all of that, begin to make more sense when you see how it corresponds to astrological symbolism of the time. It's a story or drama about movements in the sky over periods of time by this reading. In fact, the astrological symbol reading is the only one that has ever made sense to me. Astronomer-priests speaking in their own coded type of language only understood one to another, basically. Cryptic referencing.