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Precession as the Framework of Christian Origins


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On 10/19/2020 at 12:39 AM, Robert_Tulip said:

We are now at the brink of the Fermi paradox, with its implication that intelligence is inherently unstable, explained at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox#It_is_the_nature_of_intelligent_life_to_destroy_itself Christianity may provide the intellectual resources to enable humanity to cross the Fermi threshold into sustained global civilization.

 

Robert, this needs some clarification. I realize that you see this interpretation as simply, "Christianity," but that's somewhat misleading at face value.

 

You are talking more specifically about ancient "Gnostic Christianity," something entirely different than what is known as, "Christianity," here and now. Ancient "Gnostic Christianity" was astrotheological, Platonic, and possibly influenced by Vedic astrotheological concepts. That's where precession and astronomical sophistication enters the picture of possibility. 

 

It's not Christianity that "may provide the intellectual resources to enable humanity to cross the Fermi threshold," it's specifically an interpretation based on what is considered pure heresy by orthodox Christian thinking today.

 

And that needs to be stressed here for clarification. I can imagine people reading along thinking, WTF???

 

Christianity bringing sustained global civiliation???

 

On 10/19/2020 at 12:39 AM, Robert_Tulip said:

The model that I find most plausible to justify this hypothesis is that early humans were tutored by aliens, who built the pyramids as the marker of their visit, and who seeded the mythology that became Christianity.  The core of this myth is that as humans evolve toward a global civilization, our irrational instincts will provide a major barrier to the ability to generate sustained peaceful abundance. 

 

This sounds a lot like Laird Scranton's original book, "Hidden Meanings: a study on the founding symbols of civilization" 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Meanings-Laird-Scranton/dp/1401088767

 

I have his first two books in my personal library. Very interesting concepts, if true.

 

Teachers coming down from the stars and setting up civilization in the oldest cases. The symbols of the most primitive mythologies having multiple meanings. The myths passing down to newer developing cultures and then branching off and hybridizing over time. Leading from Sumer and Egypt, down line into Judaism and eventually Christianity - as the crow flies. 

 

But my perspective of this transmission of mythic symbolism is quite different than your take.

 

By the time these symbols and myths made their way down stream to Christianity, or more importantly, Gnostic Christianity, prior to the orthodox take over - they would have been fragmented and little more than a primitive rendition of whatever they started out as in ancient Sumer, Egypt, and elsewhere.

 

The journey between mysterious origins to Judaism and finally Christianity looks like a digressing, as opposed to progressing transmission through time. 

 

Nevertheless, I find all of this content interesting to discuss and consider. What you are talking about doesn't seem at all relevant to what we know as, "Christianity," today. So something would have to give. "Gnostic Christianity" would have to rise up again, or something. Otherwise, how in the world is something that is considered by most orthodox christians to be heretical supposed to represent Christianity here and now? 

 

That's a big hurtle to climb, isn't it? 

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My attached short essay on Precession as the Framework of Christian Origins was published last year as an Appendix in The Christ Conspiracy Second Edition by DM Murdock (Acharya S).  (4000 words)

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18 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

Robert, this needs some clarification. I realize that you see this interpretation as simply, "Christianity," but that's somewhat misleading at face value.

Hi Josh, yes you are absolutely correct. My argument is that a transformed future Christianity can return to its authentic roots in a way that will make it compatible with evidence and logic, and open up the power of its ethical message for the modern world.

At the moment, we could say that mainstream supernatural Christianity is taking the world down a wide and easy road to destruction, and has little concept of the hard and narrow path of salvation.  Just using that parable from Matthew 7:14 illustrates the dilemma:  Christianity has some powerful metaphors and messages, but these messages are twisted into delusional and dangerous beliefs while they are held within the corrupt church container of the supernatural personal God and the historical Jesus of Nazareth. 

As with modern science, we should believe nothing in the Bible that lacks external corroboration.  For the New Testament, that boils down to accepting only the existence of Pilate, Caiaphas and Herod in Palestine, as attested by independent sources, but accepting none of the content about Jesus or Paul except as pure parable.

18 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

You are talking more specifically about ancient "Gnostic Christianity," something entirely different than what is known as, "Christianity," here and now. Ancient "Gnostic Christianity" was astrotheological, Platonic, and possibly influenced by Vedic astrotheological concepts. That's where precession and astronomical sophistication enters the picture of possibility. 

Yes, and the challenge is to excavate the rubble of Christendom to provide a compelling explanation of how the degraded falsity of prevailing Christianity emerged from an original high wisdom. 

As I have said before, a bare field gives few clues of the rich forest that previously stood on its soil. Traditional Christianity is a barren field, standing where the riches of the ancient world were burnt and felled and destroyed.  The forensic challenge is to find the clues that point to the lost secret knowledge.  Thankfully, in my view, this is a simpler matter than is portrayed in some accounts such as Blavatsky’s Isis Unveiled, because the New Testament itself is full of concealed astronomy, in ways that have only very partially been explored. 

The underlying premise suggests the scale of depravity involved in the substitution of the Jeso-Nazareth orthodox cult for the original initiatic mysteries was far worse than is easily imagined. 

Plutarch https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/britannia/miscellanea/caesar.html claimed Julius Caesar killed 1.2 million Gauls and enslaved a million more in conquering France.  The point is that the scale of terror in Roman imperial policy rivals Genghis Khan, and the brutal simplification of Christian faith was part of a highly complex political conflict. 

The systematic removal of the original mystery astronomy appears to have been a strategic and tactical decision by the Church Fathers in their efforts to build Christianity as a mass movement that would undermine the moral legitimacy of the Empire.

18 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

It's not Christianity that "may provide the intellectual resources to enable humanity to cross the Fermi threshold," it's specifically an interpretation based on what is considered pure heresy by orthodox Christian thinking today.

When I say “Christianity” I mean the original ideas that constructed the New Testament.  My view, as you summarised, is that the kernel of these ideas was a Platonic Gnostic astronomy, imagining Jesus Christ for centuries beforehand as the coming avatar of the zodiac Age of Pisces. 

To place that hypothesis against mainstream scholarship, I would like to read Bart Ehrman’s book Lost Christianities, https://www.amazon.com.au/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/dp/0195182499 except that I see from the reviews that “Ehrman makes his case without pushing into territory considered heretical by many mainstream Christians.” 

That refusal to countenance allegedly heretical ideas was a major flaw in Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist?, which I have read.  It completely wrongly assumes as a premise that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical person, an assumption which I think prevents coherent analysis of the source material.  It is noteworthy that Frank Zindler in his critique of Ehrman puts this zodiac hypothesis in the centre.

18 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

And that needs to be stressed here for clarification. I can imagine people reading along thinking, WTF???  Christianity bringing sustained global civilization???

 

My view on the coming Age of Aquarius, just defined in general approximate terms as the next two millennia, is that the moral essence of Christianity as found in the Gospels provides numerous key ideas that will be essential to sustain planetary security and stability. 

But keeping anything that is incompatible with scientific knowledge is a path to corruption and collapse. 

So the Aquarian sieve, sorting the wheat from the tares in the terms of Matt 13:24-30, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Parable_of_the_Weeds sees the enemy as the orthodox church.  The good seed was sowed by the philosophical astronomer priests who saw the zodiac precession framework of time, but this was too complex for ancient politics, so it was banned from view as heresy.  The original cosmic vision was so intrinsic to Christian faith that it could not be eliminated, and instead it intermingled with the weeds sowed by the devil that appeared as the false belief in the historical Jesus.  The corrupted state of the world meant that the dominant false beliefs would have to continue until the end of the age, ie to the transition to the Age of Aquarius, when the harvest would enable a paradigm shift in which the true history is revealed.

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1 hour ago, Robert_Tulip said:

Hi Josh, yes you are absolutely correct. My argument is that a transformed future Christianity can return to its authentic roots in a way that will make it compatible with evidence and logic, and open up the power of its ethical message for the modern world.

 

Well, this makes me think of neo-paganism. It sounds like a christian rendition, a neo-gnostic christianity. 

 

1 hour ago, Robert_Tulip said:

As with modern science, we should believe nothing in the Bible that lacks external corroboration.  For the New Testament, that boils down to accepting only the existence of Pilate, Caiaphas and Herod in Palestine, as attested by independent sources, but accepting none of the content about Jesus or Paul except as pure parable.

 

Sort of like neo-pagans who may be atheist or agnostic and don't accept the old paganism in literalistic terms? And don't take the deities literally and what not. 

 

The above is a very reasonable approach to the bible as far as I'm concerned. I'm content to accept it all as mythology and not take much of it literally at all, unless demonstrated as such. Which, at this point, isn't even possible to do. It just isn't demonstrable where historicity of jesus and the disciples are concerned. 

 

1 hour ago, Robert_Tulip said:

The systematic removal of the original mystery astronomy appears to have been a strategic and tactical decision by the Church Fathers in their efforts to build Christianity as a mass movement that would undermine the moral legitimacy of the Empire.

 

It has been my opinion that it started out as a type of mystery school. It went out to the common people, or the masses. Once out to the masses, it fell under the accusation of divulging the solar mysteries to the public. A capital crime. For which christians faced persecution and consequence. Although greatly exaggerated by christians. And it was dumbed down with a strong emphasis on exoteric, rather than esoteric presentation. Which was the literalistic way of presenting and interpreting the mythological symbolism. It became state sanctioned and went on to spread throughout Europe and abroad. 

 

Now here we are in 2020, you in Australia and me in the US. Both of us trying to reverse engineer what exactly happened and how it actually started. 

 

2 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

So the Aquarian sieve, sorting the wheat from the tares in the terms of Matt 13:24-30, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Parable_of_the_Weeds sees the enemy as the orthodox church.  The good seed was sowed by the philosophical astronomer priests who saw the zodiac precession framework of time, but this was too complex for ancient politics, so it was banned from view as heresy.  The original cosmic vision was so intrinsic to Christian faith that it could not be eliminated, and instead it intermingled with the weeds sowed by the devil that appeared as the false belief in the historical Jesus.  The corrupted state of the world meant that the dominant false beliefs would have to continue until the end of the age, ie to the transition to the Age of Aquarius, when the harvest would enable a paradigm shift in which the true history is revealed.

 

I doubt I'm the only one seeing this, but the above treads into where you would likely face orthodox christians calling you the anti-christ for preaching the message above. The above insinuating believing in jesus historically, is itself the "anti" of what the original "christ" message actually was!!!

 

And it's quite clever, really. You've turned it right around on them. They are under the influence of the anti-christ, and have been for centuries and centuries on end. We're talking about a reign of this false belief lasting for centuries, not months or years. And wouldn't that be something, if there came a time where the truth of all of this speculative history could be revealed. 

 

If it could all be firmed up, that falls in line with the idea in revelation that those who thought they had it right all along, were wrong the entire time: 

 

50 gand throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place gthere will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft trose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and uthe sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.


20 And the beast was captured, and with it gthe false prophet hwho in its presence1 had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who iworshiped its image. These two were jthrown alive into the lake of kfire that burns with sulfur.


10 and the devil lwho had deceived them was mthrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where nthe beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

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The very people who have crammed these types of verses and threats down all of our throats over the years, being the morons in question who followed a false belief the entire time!!!!

 

Time, times, and half a time, as it were. 

 

One world age. Two world ages. And half a world age. Covering the astrological ages of taurus, aries, pisces, and aquarius. Exactly "1/3" of the constellations that make up the total Great Year, or precession of the equinoxes. Time and again in revelation, 1/3 is mentioned. Four world ages equal 1/3 of the total 12 world ages in a Great Year cycle.

 

This all has the potential to come together as a complete re-interpretation of the entire thing. Daniel and Revelation. Where you would have to fight back at everyone who calls the Gnostic way, "anti-christ." 

 

 

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On 10/21/2020 at 3:42 PM, Joshpantera said:

This sounds a lot like Laird Scranton's original book, "Hidden Meanings: a study on the founding symbols of civilization" https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Meanings-Laird-Scranton/dp/1401088767

I have his first two books in my personal library. Very interesting concepts, if true.

This ancient aliens topic is a diversion from the main theme of the thread, but it is a worthy topic in its own right so I will follow it up in a new thread.  The connection with precession is that the apparent knowledge of precession, as something that current beliefs do not accept, is similar to the range of ancient technologies that are hard to explain as having arisen from known methods.  Unfortunately, the prevailing fallacious logic for such topics is to assume that conventional explanations are true, and therefore to just ignore evidence that does not fit, and disparage anyone who asks about it.  So there is a culture of timidity around these topics, similar to how heretics were bullied into silence in the past. That is a big problem. 

 

On 10/21/2020 at 3:42 PM, Joshpantera said:

Teachers coming down from the stars and setting up civilization in the oldest cases. The symbols of the most primitive mythologies having multiple meanings. The myths passing down to newer developing cultures and then branching off and hybridizing over time. Leading from Sumer and Egypt, down line into Judaism and eventually Christianity - as the crow flies. 

One thing that made me wonder about the possibility of aliens was seeing an ancient Egyptian sarcophagus with a drawing like an alien in an exhibition from the Louvre Museum visiting Australia in 2006. I took a photo of a similar sarcophagus in the British Museum when I visited there in 2014.  It reminds me of the Ibis head god Thoth, and made me wonder if it could have been a realistic drawing of a visiting alien.  If anyone has a better explanation let me know.  This is a tangent to the precession theme, so please wait for the new thread on ancient aliens, with the photo.

On 10/21/2020 at 3:42 PM, Joshpantera said:

But my perspective of this transmission of mythic symbolism is quite different than your take.  By the time these symbols and myths made their way down stream to Christianity, or more importantly, Gnostic Christianity, prior to the orthodox take over - they would have been fragmented and little more than a primitive rendition of whatever they started out as in ancient Sumer, Egypt, and elsewhere. The journey between mysterious origins to Judaism and finally Christianity looks like a digressing, as opposed to progressing transmission through time. 

How I see it is that the secret mystery wisdom that formed the original vision of Jesus Christ as allegory for the sun connected to an unbroken oral lineage of imaginative mythology stretching back many thousands of years, in which the initiates knew full well that their stories were allegory not literal.  The shattering of this enlightened allegorical vision by the Greco-Roman alliance of pen and sword left us with the fragmentary impoverished vision expressed in the literal reading of the Bible with its claim that God is a personal entity. 

 

However, it is far from clear that the Bible authors shared this enfeebled literal outlook.  Rather, it appears they used the public text as an exoteric popular introduction to an esoteric secret mystery religion, grounded in solar mythology of precession and resulting zodiac ages.  This hypothesis invites us to analyse the text to see how such an enlightened method could be concealed within it.

 

On 10/21/2020 at 3:42 PM, Joshpantera said:

Nevertheless, I find all of this content interesting to discuss and consider. What you are talking about doesn't seem at all relevant to what we know as, "Christianity," today. So something would have to give. "Gnostic Christianity" would have to rise up again, or something. Otherwise, how in the world is something that is considered by most orthodox christians to be heretical supposed to represent Christianity here and now?  That's a big hurdle to climb, isn't it? 

I see this material as entirely relevant to Christianity, by looking beneath its surface delusions to uncover its original motive power.  As with the Protestant Reformation, a new vision is needed.  The Reformation ended a long period of corruption in which people manipulated religion to serve worldly needs.  The Reformers such as Luther and Calvin began a path toward insistence on logical coherence in faith.  They only walked part of the way down this path, because they accepted a number of false assumptions, such as the existence of Jesus, God, heaven and hell, and the ability to perform miracles.  The new reformation that I am proposing is grounded in modern philosophy, rejecting all assumptions that confine our outlook into a narrow channel of belief.  Instead we should ask what it might mean to build a coherent wholistic perspective that recognises the interconnectedness of all things as the ground of authentic religion.

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23 hours ago, Weezer said:

Very interesting discussion! 

And I am looking forward to more on ancient aliens. 

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2 hours ago, Weezer said:

And I am looking forward to more on ancient aliens. 

See new thread - 

 

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On 9/28/2020 at 8:13 AM, Joshpantera said:

The big kicker here is that I have often wondered what in the world to expect from the next change???

It is hard for me to keep up with all the interesting responses in this thread!  So now going back nearly a month to this great question from Josh.

 

The point in this concept of “the next change” is that we can find material in both scientific and spiritual cosmologies that can help us to predict and construct the future of our planet.  Most material on this agenda in popular religion is garbage, due to its acceptance of supernatural mythology.  So a first goal should be to ensure analysis is compatible with modern scientific knowledge.  That means that ideas that come from religion or astrology or other folk traditions need to be treated as allegory, serving more as an explanatory mythological narrative than a literal discovery, and have to explicitly be tied to an empirical basis.

 

“The next change” means a shift in the prevailing paradigm of understanding the world. My view is that the world needs a triple paradigm shift, addressing cosmology, culture and climate.

 

Cosmology in the current framework of astronomy examines the big questions of the origin and destiny of the universe.  That is obviously immensely important, but it is very difficult to connect that scale with human time scales.  Cosmology needs to address how our planet connects to the universe, a terrestrial cosmology, grounding our understanding of our planetary future in orbital dynamics, and then examine what such a wholistic integrated planetary vision means for cultural identity.

 

Our discussion here on cultural evolution has looked at some rather wild analysis of Vedic mythology, the Age of Aquarius, and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The underlying rational connection is that the old Indian myth of the Yuga predicts an ascending cultural cycle over the next ten thousand years, and this matches directly to both the underlying orbital dynamics of planetary cycles and to Christian eschatology, providing a coherent long term predictive framework.  This is an amazing and mind bending claim, very slow to percolate through, but very important in constructing a story of a positive hopeful vision for the future, with good potential to help sort the wheat from the weeds to reformulate concepts of good and evil.  I see a rigorous empirical scepticism about all religious claims as an essential part of this cultural shift.  At the same time it is essential to see how mythology retains immense value for its rich stories of human cultural heritage and identity, so religious stories can be seen in terms of their ethical meaning for our world today.

 

These changes needed in cosmology and culture are quite deep-seated, slow and abstract, but are important to construct a framework to understand the paradigm shift needed in global climate management.   The risk of climate collapse from global warming is the immediate security peril facing the planet.  This existential threat is currently largely ignored in prevailing politics in terms of practical investment at scale.  This is a major interest of mine, seeing transformation of carbon dioxide into useful products at gigatonne scale as the core priority.  My view is that the best way to do that would be to develop large scale ocean based algae production.

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I will give a public lecture tomorrow (Sunday 1 Nov) on Astronomy in the Bible.  Unfortunately for Americans the time zone puts it at about 4am, but I hope it will be available as a youtube recording.  Link is https://ascm.org.au/civicrm/event/info?id=52&reset=1&fbclid=IwAR01T9RVQRkZ25BKja3PMT3ZCIlQUzVtLGR0hKA-3gMPYfMbn6Li0Vs9yyg

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