Matthew 16:25: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

[alreadyGone]

Matthew 16:25

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."
 

Can anyone tell me what this is supposed to mean?

What does traditional Christian theology say this means?

What do you think the person who wrote it was trying to say?

 

 

[TABA]

I think traditional Christian theology took this to mean that this life is unimportant compared to "the life to come".

The remaining verses in the chapter elaborate:

 

26 "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

 

The soul is what matters, not earthly existence.  Here Jesus predicts that the "Son of Man" (whom Jesus may have meant to refer to himself or to another) is about to arrive and establish his "kingdom" - within the lifetimes of "some who are standing here".  As understood by Apocalyptic Jews in the couple of centuries BCE, God would cease tolerating the existence of evil in the world and would destroy his enemies (meaning the oppressors of Israel) once and for all, establishing a perfect kingdom on Earth.

 

Of course that never happened, so Christians, rather than admitting that the Kingdom of God did not arrive as promised, either insisted that they were actually living, post-Resurrection, in God's new kingdom, or claimed that God had postponed the arrival of the kingdom.  An even later interpretation was that the kingdom would not be soon and here on Earth,  but rather much later in another realm.  You will find these different interpretations in later New Testament books, and this is how many Christians today see it: deprive yourself in this life to gain something better in the next.

 

[alreadyGone]

thank you for that.

Makes sense.

[alreadyGone]

 

And, party naked. 

Practice social distancing, and wash hands often.

 

[Christianchat_Chat]

On 10/5/2020 at 3:28 PM, alreadyGone said:

Matthew 16:25

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."
 

Can anyone tell me what this is supposed to mean?

What does traditional Christian theology say this means?

What do you think the person who wrote it was trying to say?

 

 

 

it means to give up anything in/of ourselves that isn't Christ-like.. bit by bit over time - lose.  by giving up death/sin (sin brings death) we find life - Christ.  anything not of Christ brings death.  anything of Christ (light, love, truth) overcomes death (darkness, sin, confusion).

[alreadyGone]

4 hours ago, Christianchat_Chat said:

 

it means to give up anything in/of ourselves that isn't Christ-like.. bit by bit over time - lose.  by giving up death/sin (sin brings death) we find life - Christ.  anything not of Christ brings death.  anything of Christ (light, love, truth) overcomes death (darkness, sin, confusion).

 

And yet the Bible tells us that we can never do what you describe.

Not bit by bit, not at all. Not ever.   "Filthy rags", and all that.

 

The Bible clearly teaches that you may in your lifetime try to be "more Christ-like", but that you will never be successful to do so. Nor will any other human being.

According to the Bible we by our very nature can never become even a modicum of "Christ-like".

 

The Bible declares at every turn that we by nature can never "give up sin".

So why pretend otherwise?

To make yourself feel that you are participating in this 'spiritual' farce?

 

Is it your belief that you accumulate spiritual brownie-points by trying to do what you will never actually do?  Are you to be rated with '5 Stars' at heaven's gate by God or his angels because you apply effort to do what you already know you will fail to do?

 

Are you rated then according to the level of personal effort you apply toward futility?

 

You know that, in the real world as often as not "light, love, truth" 

DO NOT

overcome "darkness, sin, confusion".

I would argue that if anything, this is the normal, usual state of our temporal existence.

 

So then what?  Pray for what you know will not happen?

To my thinking, that is confusion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Christianchat_Chat]

1 hour ago, alreadyGone said:

 

And yet the Bible tells us that we can never do what you describe.

Not bit by bit, not at all. Not ever.   "Filthy rags", and all that.

 

The Bible clearly teaches that you may in your lifetime try to be "more Christ-like", but that you will never be successful to do so. Nor will any other human being.

According to the Bible we by our very nature can never become even a modicum of "Christ-like".

 

The Bible declares at every turn that we by nature can never "give up sin".

So why pretend otherwise?

To make yourself feel that you are participating in this 'spiritual' farce?

 

Is it your belief that you accumulate spiritual brownie-points by trying to do what you will never actually do?  Are you to be rated with '5 Stars' at heaven's gate by God or his angels because you apply effort to do what you already know you will fail to do?

 

Are you rated then according to the level of personal effort you apply toward futility?

 

You know that, in the real world as often as not "light, love, truth" 

DO NOT

overcome "darkness, sin, confusion".

I would argue that if anything, this is the normal, usual state of our temporal existence.

 

So then what?  Pray for what you know will not happen?

To my thinking, that is confusion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the Bible "teaches".. or my interpretation of the Bible is: .. ? 

 

the Bible also 'says' that God's thoughts are higher than ours.. so, it is good to be careful lest we stumble in any of our personal interpretations of it or anything (the Bible, or life even - for ourselves and/or towards others). this is also just common sense, yes? or said another way - it can be good to keep an open mind, even great - so that we can learn more in life and correct our previous errors on the road of life and learning.

[alreadyGone]

All of which means: "this makes me feel good, so I believe it".

 

Your argument here is the exact equivalent to that which I have heard too many times:  "Other believers have it wrong. Me, I've read the Bible, cover to cover, twice. I can tell you that what it really means is...  "

 

Do you believe simultaneously that the Bible is the inerrant word of God handed to us for the purpose of providing spiritual enlightenment and knowledge and at the same time believe that the true meaning is buried in allegory and double-secret deeper meaning so esoteric that only the select few Christians can understand?

 

Is it your belief that the Bible requires a specific non-quantifiable level of 'true' faith and personal devotion to unlock the real, true meaning? A level which you have achieved?

 

Tell us please, what is truly meant by Mathew 16:15.

If the Bible is God's gift for our enlightenment then where is the instruction there?

How specifically does one become "wise as a serpent"?

In what ways is a serpent 'wise'?

This is presented in the book of Mathew as if so profound and full of truth. And yet, there is no discernible meaning at all.

"Wise as a serpent" is just nonsense, foolishness.

 

 

It is my contention that the Bible is a book of ad-hoc poetry, myth, and legend.

 

Implied in your words is that my "personal interpretation" is insufficient, where yours is valid.

Your personal interpretation = God's intent and meaning.

My personal interpretation is flawed because it doesn't align well with yours.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

Tell us please, what is truly meant by Mathew 16:15.

If the Bible is God's gift for our enlightenment then where is the instruction there?

How specifically does one become "wise as a serpent"?

In what ways is a serpent 'wise'?

This is presented in the book of Mathew as if so profound and full of truth. And yet, there is no discernible meaning at all.

"Wise as a serpent" is just nonsense, foolishness.

This was meant as a prophecy to demonstrate that god supports Cobra Kai over Miyagi-do.  The philosophy of strike first, strike hard, no mercy is a guide to spiritual warfare and driving out demons.

 

 

[alreadyGone]

I could be happy to become as wise as Mr. Miyagi.

At least as a starting-point.

[WalterP]

9 hours ago, Christianchat_Chat said:

 

the Bible "teaches".. or my interpretation of the Bible is: .. ? 

 

 

 

Physician, heal thyself.

[Christianchat_Chat]

On 1/20/2021 at 6:42 AM, alreadyGone said:

Your argument here is the exact equivalent to that which I have heard too many times:  "Other believers have it wrong. Me, I've read the Bible, cover to cover, twice. I can tell you that what it really means is...  "

then where is the instruction there?

How specifically does one become "wise as a serpent"?

 

not twice read.  i am a seeker of truth. 

 

 

On 1/20/2021 at 6:42 AM, alreadyGone said:

Your argument here is the exact equivalent to that which I have heard too many times:  "Other believers have it wrong. Me, I've read the Bible, cover to cover, twice. I can tell you that what it really means is...  "

 

Do you believe simultaneously that the Bible is the inerrant word of God handed to us for the purpose of providing spiritual enlightenment and knowledge and at the same time believe that the true meaning is buried in allegory and double-secret deeper meaning so esoteric that only the select few Christians can understand?

 

Is it your belief that the Bible requires a specific non-quantifiable level of 'true' faith and personal devotion to unlock the real, true meaning? A level which you have achieved?

 

truth is found all around us i would think.

 

 

On 1/20/2021 at 6:42 AM, alreadyGone said:

It is my contention that the Bible is a book of ad-hoc poetry, myth, and legend.

 

Implied in your words is that my "personal interpretation" is insufficient, where yours is valid.

Your personal interpretation = God's intent and meaning.

My personal interpretation is flawed because it doesn't align well with yours.

 

 

all that anyone says here, no matter who they are is either something they are thinking about, something that interests them or repels them, something they believe in, disbelieve in, something they decide to talk about, ect.  it is  no diiferent for me.  do you believe in freedom of thought?  do you believe in freedom of mind?  do you believe in freedom?

[alreadyGone]

33 minutes ago, Christianchat_Chat said:

....

all that anyone says here, no matter who they are is either something they are thinking about, something that interests them or repels them, something they believe in, disbelieve in, something they decide to talk about, ect.  it is  no diiferent for me.  do you believe in freedom of thought?  do you believe in freedom of mind?  do you believe in freedom?

 

 

The meaning of your question is not clear to me, so excuse me if my response is not appropriate or sufficient.

 

Absolutely I 'believe in' freedom.

I believe that freedom...  freedom of choice, self-determination is the only thing which makes life in this world worth anything.

This is natural to all living things, and man is no different in this regard.

 

Now... if the intent of your question is whether I believe both in an all-powerful, sovereign God and I believe also in human "free will", then the answer is no, I do not. This is an oxymoron.

 

The concept of God offering us free will and self-determination while simultaneously commissioning Satan to rule over this world, giving Satan freedom to thwart our self-interest, free will, and self-determination in his avowed mission to destroy us, is intellectually unsustainable.

It makes no rational sense.

 

Such thinking is akin to releasing a mouse into a cage with two snakes, and as you lock the door telling him "you have free will. I alone can open this door and release you from being food for these snakes. But I won't do so. Now... worship me! Or else!".

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alreadyGone]

To my post above....

If you don't understand that then you have surely had a very sheltered life.

 

If that be the case, not assuming mind you, then you "know little of the wideness of the world" as the Norse supposedly said.