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Goodbye Jesus

Asking Questions


ReducedtoAtoms

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I can't think of a title, and excuse my grammar im on mobile. I was in a bible study group, because my mom won't accept the fact that I'm not a Christian, but I didn't want to argue and make her mad so I went anyways. 

 

It was about genesis cain and Abel. You know what that is. I didn't exactly participate until the end because my main goal was to ask questions. 

 

My first question was. Isn't god technically responsible for all the he bad things happening not Adam and Eve. And even in the bible after they "ate the apple." It says they became knowing of good and evil. He didn't actually give an answer more like an excuse. But the next question I asked I got an interesting answer. 

 

I asked why does God need worship if he's good. And the guy, pastor, grandpa responds with that God doesn't need our worship, but we do. 

 

And it was a good answer except the fact that the Bible says so many times that you must worship God. And why does God put people through torture and torment just to play hero. Also why would he get jealous he doesn't need it...but also he created the world soely for people worship him.

 

Obviously, according to the bible we need to worship God because we'll suffer from something he created....but when it comes to free will is it either free will, or teaching people a lesson for using free will.

 

So let's say you did use your freewill and paid for it, the point of free will is so we don't act like robots. But if you go to hell and are being tortured you're going to be influenced in an negative way....You're going to become robot like either way, just you have enough time to convince yourself this is what you want.

 

I think to much so this sounds kind of silly but sending people to hell reminds me of child abuse. After awhile of child abuse and grooming guess what happens to that person?

 

Idk

 

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Welcome, @ReducedtoAtoms! I'm glad you're here! Keep asking questions...

 

I'm not actually the best person for debate (I don't have patience for it anymore...) but I can point you to a broad-strokes contextualization and validation of the questions themselves. 

 

Quote

My first question was. Isn't god technically responsible for all the he bad things happening not Adam and Eve. And even in the bible after they "ate the apple." It says they became knowing of good and evil. He didn't actually give an answer more like an excuse. But the next question I asked I got an interesting answer. 

The question you are referring to is actually related to a big question that has been fiercely debated and circled around during the entire history of Christian theology, and it's called "The Problem of Evil". Basically, it comes down to: "If God is good and all powerful, why does evil exist?" The common answer referred to by Christians in these times is "Because of free will", which results in a whole other rabbit hole of "If we have free will, and have no idea what we're doing, how are we responsible? Also, if we have free will, and if we assume we're not completely clueless, shouldn't we trust our own judgement?" I think the Adam & Eve story kind of comes back to this general conundrum because the story raises all kinds of questions about the relationship between knowledge, power, causality, and responsibility. 

 

There are a lot of avenues to how people respond to this question. My parents, for example, were believers of a theology called Calvinism, which out right says humans have no free will. They're content to believe that God is cruel and that there's nothing we can or should do about that. That's the other extreme to the "free will" argument.

 

Quote

I asked why does God need worship if he's good. And the guy, pastor, grandpa responds with that God doesn't need our worship, but we do. 

 

And it was a good answer except the fact that the Bible says so many times that you must worship God. And why does God put people through torture and torment just to play hero. Also why would he get jealous he doesn't need it...but also he created the world soely for people worship him.

I personally think Christianity really muddies the distinction of God as a metaphysical concept and as a human personality. If you read the bible - especially the old testament - it's clear what's being described is a personality, complete with rage and jealousy, and not a supreme metaphysical apex of perfection. It seems two faced to say "I'm perfect: I don't need your worship" then turn around and say "but I will torture you if you don't worship me". You can speculate, as your grandfather did, that worship is somehow a deep rooted spiritual need we have like our physical need for water, but the fact of the matter is there are examples of people who are happier, healthier, and better adjusted without worshipping God. This seems to provide counter-evidence. In fact, there are many examples where worship makes people worse people (like terrorist sects, etc.). I'm sure people will come out with rationalizations about how those are *exceptions* rather than the rule, however. Commonly these counter-examples are misinterpreted or twisted in attempts to explain that they are not actually counter-examples. This leads to a type of argument called "no-true Scotsman". There's an article somewhere on this website which goes to that in detail.

 

Quote

Obviously, according to the bible we need to worship God because we'll suffer from something he created....but when it comes to free will is it either free will, or teaching people a lesson for using free will.

Again, I'll point out that some Christians actually don't believe in free will, which leads to it's own slew of problems. However, yes, if you do believe in free will, it seems the narrative just points to a direction of punishing humanity for exercising the very thing it was given. 

 

 

Quote

I think to much so this sounds kind of silly but sending people to hell reminds me of child abuse. After awhile of child abuse and grooming guess what happens to that person?

Tell me about it... consider that the central icon of Christianity is the image of a man, who is the son of God, being sent by his father to be tortured and killed... Even assuming the resurrection to be true it's kind of messed up. If you interpret his crucifixion as the victimization of a misunderstood savior by the hands of evil people, however, then it makes it seem like God isn't really in charge (and at the same time, not responsible). This is a problem for the church, which really wants to argue the idea that God is all-powerful. This leads the church to present a very strange narrative.

 

Long story short- it doesn't make sense. It's a paradox. If you really want to understand why people argue these points it's more constructive to focus on "why" it's in their interest to argue these points. For example, consider the story of Adam & Eve is just a myth intended to explain how humans came to think for themselves. Such a myth is necessary if you want to claim you can explain everything, because humans are, in fact, known for thinking for themselves. Why the punishment? Because the religious authority (the church, your pastor,etc.) wants you to stop thinking for yourself and do what they have to say instead. It's a lot easier for people in power if other people just shut up and did what they commanded. 

 

Anyways - that's what I've got to say. Hope it helps! I don't actually care if you believe in God or not - but if you choose to continue to believe in God (or some version of the Christian God), please consider the difference between what it is to you personally and what it is to the agendas that people argue for/against. You might find it interesting that I still consider the bible a fascinating and important text - even from a non-Xian standpoint - because it forms a basis upon which ideas of power, responsibility, and identity can be discussed. I really like the story of Adam & Eve, in this sense, even if I don't "believe" in it. It also, at the same time, doesn't bother me that it doesn't make sense - because I already accepted that it doesn't.

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48 minutes ago, DestinyTurtle said:

Welcome, @ReducedtoAtoms! I'm glad you're here! Keep asking questions...

 

I'm not actually the best person for debate (I don't have patience for it anymore...) but I can point you to a broad-strokes contextualization and validation of the questions themselves. 

 

The question you are referring to is actually related to a big question that has been fiercely debated and circled around during the entire history of Christian theology, and it's called "The Problem of Evil". Basically, it comes down to: "If God is good and all powerful, why does evil exist?" The common answer referred to by Christians in these times is "Because of free will", which results in a whole other rabbit hole of "If we have free will, and have no idea what we're doing, how are we responsible? Also, if we have free will, and if we assume we're not completely clueless, shouldn't we trust our own judgement?" I think the Adam & Eve story kind of comes back to this general conundrum because the story raises all kinds of questions about the relationship between knowledge, power, causality, and responsibility. 

 

There are a lot of avenues to how people respond to this question. My parents, for example, were believers of a theology called Calvinism, which out right says humans have no free will. They're content to believe that God is cruel and that there's nothing we can or should do about that. That's the other extreme to the "free will" argument.

 

I personally think Christianity really muddies the distinction of God as a metaphysical concept and as a human personality. If you read the bible - especially the old testament - it's clear what's being described is a personality, complete with rage and jealousy, and not a supreme metaphysical apex of perfection. It seems two faced to say "I'm perfect: I don't need your worship" then turn around and say "but I will torture you if you don't worship me". You can speculate, as your grandfather did, that worship is somehow a deep rooted spiritual need we have like our physical need for water, but the fact of the matter is there are examples of people who are happier, healthier, and better adjusted without worshipping God. This seems to provide counter-evidence. In fact, there are many examples where worship makes people worse people (like terrorist sects, etc.). I'm sure people will come out with rationalizations about how those are *exceptions* rather than the rule, however. Commonly these counter-examples are misinterpreted or twisted in attempts to explain that they are not actually counter-examples. This leads to a type of argument called "no-true Scotsman". There's an article somewhere on this website which goes to that in detail.

 

Again, I'll point out that some Christians actually don't believe in free will, which leads to it's own slew of problems. However, yes, if you do believe in free will, it seems the narrative just points to a direction of punishing humanity for exercising the very thing it was given. 

 

 

Tell me about it... consider that the central icon of Christianity is the image of a man, who is the son of God, being sent by his father to be tortured and killed... Even assuming the resurrection to be true it's kind of messed up. If you interpret his crucifixion as the victimization of a misunderstood savior by the hands of evil people, however, then it makes it seem like God isn't really in charge (and at the same time, not responsible). This is a problem for the church, which really wants to argue the idea that God is all-powerful. This leads the church to present a very strange narrative.

 

Long story short- it doesn't make sense. It's a paradox. If you really want to understand why people argue these points it's more constructive to focus on "why" it's in their interest to argue these points. For example, consider the story of Adam & Eve is just a myth intended to explain how humans came to think for themselves. Such a myth is necessary if you want to claim you can explain everything, because humans are, in fact, known for thinking for themselves. Why the punishment? Because the religious authority (the church, your pastor,etc.) wants you to stop thinking for yourself and do what they have to say instead. It's a lot easier for people in power if other people just shut up and did what they commanded. 

 

Anyways - that's what I've got to say. Hope it helps! I don't actually care if you believe in God or not - but if you choose to continue to believe in God (or some version of the Christian God), please consider the difference between what it is to you personally and what it is to the agendas that people argue for/against. You might find it interesting that I still consider the bible a fascinating and important text - even from a non-Xian standpoint - because it forms a basis upon which ideas of power, responsibility, and identity can be discussed. I really like the story of Adam & Eve, in this sense, even if I don't "believe" in it. It also, at the same time, doesn't bother me that it doesn't make sense - because I already accepted that it doesn't.

This does really help but literally 5 seconds ago I saw a video talking about how more people about seeing more visions and prophecies of God. Honestly it's worrisome? It's different from the original conversation but what's your opinion of that?

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2 minutes ago, ReducedtoAtoms said:

This does really help but literally 5 seconds ago I saw a video talking about how more people about seeing more visions and prophecies of God. Honestly it's worrisome? It's different from the original conversation but what's your opinion of that?

I could approach this subject two ways (1) Discuss the idea of visions and prophecy in general, or (2) Address why these experiences described as visions or prophecies are on the rise.

 

(1) The idea of prophecy and visions are fascinating, and actually exist in pretty much all cultures and religions. In Christianity, there is a common assumption that it is the only religion that has records of these things, or the "true" version of these things. I think extremist sects of any religion makes some version of this assumption. Regardless, if you read written records of these visions (Revelations, Ezekiel, etc.) you'll notice that they are weird and vague. There are many expositions to the meanings of these visions, but ultimately it's people coming to their own pre-conceived conclusions and agendas, like they do with the bible in general. 

 

I won't say visions aren't real, because they exist in every culture and are actually integral in many practices of meditation, psychedelics, art, etc. I will recommend steering away from the delusion that there is one authoritarian prophecy or interpretation of prophecy, as these are just examples of people behaving en masse to fear and to things they don't understand. There's a lot of great literature comparing visionary experiences, and psychedelic experiences, and near-death experiences, from many angles. I like Aldous Huxley's "The Doors of Perception" or "Perennial Philosophy" because they do just that. Seeing the whole picture will help appreciate the whole thing while steering you away from an angry/manic preacher saying the End is Nigh & Give Me All Your Money or You'll Go To Hell. The language of visions can be very weird and frightening just like a dream can be weird and frightening, and authoritarians who like scare-tactics like to appropriate it for this reason.

 

(2) Visionary states & experiences are often catalyzed by an extreme experience. It is speculated that a near-death experience floods your brain with DMT, which is a psychedelic that is currently the only known naturally-occurring psychedelic in the human brain. Extreme fasting or meditating also seems to change your body chemistry in a way that can catalyze vision experiences, which is why it's used in many cultures religious practices. 

 

Anyways, long story short, a crisis or severe chemical imbalance can trigger these experiences. Much of the world is in a crisis state right now, due to Covid and Global Warming. I think this is triggering a lot of intense and scary chemical and psychological states that the people experiencing them can't understand. I think that's maybe why such experiencing are rising. It's not a reason to jump to conclusions as to what it means about God, for similar reasons as to why you can't use one religion's written prophecy as proof of its supremacy over all other religions (because they all say that, in one form or another, which, ironically, makes none of them unique). 

 

Hope that helps!

 

 

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Destiny has made some very good points.  But you are the only one who can do something to change what is going on.  Why are you watching more videos?  When are you going to get some professional help for your anxiety?  If you don't do something different, you are going to keep getting the same results.

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Just now, Weezer said:

Destiny has made some very good points.  But you are the only one who can do something to change what is going on.  Why are you watching more videos?  When are you going to get some professional help for your anxiety?  If you don't do something different, you are going to keep getting the same results.

The religion you are surrounded by is a convoluted mess.  Most religions don't make sense when you back off and look at the big picture with rational thinking.  

 

Think about it.  God is supposed to be all knowing and  powerful.  Can do whatever he wants.  So why doesn't he appear to all of us at one time and tell us exactly what it is he wants of us?  Is it just a coincidence that he has never done that?  Or have a few people through the ages made up these stories in an effort to scare people into obeying them?  And people just keep passing the scary stories from generation to generation, believing they are the "holy" "truth."

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12 hours ago, Weezer said:

Destiny has made some very good points.  But you are the only one who can do something to change what is going on.  Why are you watching more videos?  When are you going to get some professional help for your anxiety?  If you don't do something different, you are going to keep getting the same results.

Because I'm still skeptic, and for some odd reason it keeps appearing through my feed even when I click don't recommend it just keeps coming back. 

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14 hours ago, ReducedtoAtoms said:

Because I'm still skeptic, and for some odd reason it keeps appearing through my feed even when I click don't recommend it just keeps coming back. 

If you dont know how to turn off your "feed", and stop using your electronic device for anything but to make necessary phone calls, or send a text, then I don't know what else to tell you. 

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On 10/14/2020 at 12:52 PM, ReducedtoAtoms said:

So let's say you did use your freewill and paid for it, the point of free will is so we don't act like robots. But if you go to hell and are being tortured you're going to be influenced in an negative way....You're going to become robot like either way, just you have enough time to convince yourself this is what you want.

 

That belief and attitude that God created us in his image, with "free will", about which He is then pissed off because we use that free will, is nothing more than man creating a God in his own image.

 

The very common, almost ubiquitous line of reasoning "but God didn't want just robots...." is an attempt to anthropomorphize the God they create so they'll have that close personal 'secret friend' they always wanted.  

 

Notice how nearly ubiquitous that thinking is... and yet as far as I am aware, this is stated nowhere, nor is it implied anywhere in the Bible.

 

Apologetics...  that urge to explain what cannot be explained, to make it comfortable and easy for the believer.

 

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