freethinkluva22 & Greatraven

[Clayton_Veno]

Hi there everyone so before I begin my topic/forum on Lesko concerning Neith and Hathor I just wanted to start another topic that me and N.W. Barker have been having and see what everyones thoughts are:

 

 

Hi FTL It's been a while I found this rather absurd comment here:   Greatraven 8 MONTHS AGO Um... Romulus and Remus had a father, the god Mars. Their mother was a vestal virgin, yes, but there was no parthenogenesis involved. Dionysus was the son of Zeus. His mother Semele was not a virgin; Hera, disguised as a neighbour, talked her into demanding to see who he really was, then refusing him further access to her bed. Jason has a father too, King Aeson. There is a long list of possible mothers. Recommended: Robert Graves’ book The Greek Myths.   No doubt there are plenty of virgin birth stories, but those are not among them, I’m afraid. https://www.smh.com.au/national/there-s-nothing-new-about-virgin-births-just-ask-plato-20191225-p53mui.html#comments   There are many problems with Greatraven's statement for starters Greatraven fails to comprehend how ancient MYTH operates the idea of a goddess who is married and engages in sexual intercourse and yet also at the same time remains a virgin when conceiving her child or children second Greatraven is also ignorant of these quotes:   “If our Christ-cultists say that their Jesus Christ was born miraculously from a virgin who had known no men, likewise the pagans had already said that Romulus and Remus, the founders of Rome, were miraculously born of a vestal virgin named Ilia, Sylvia, or Rhea Sylvia. They had already said that Mars, Vulcan, Argus, and others were born of Juno, who had no knowledge of men.” — Jean Meslier (1729), The Testament (pg. 129)   While Semele may not have been referred to as a Virgin in ancient texts she is considered to be a Virgin mother by many scholars such as Edmund Ronald Leach, Marguerite Rigoglioso, Edward Carpenter and Joseph Campbell Just to name a few and in one myth Semele is  impregnated with Dionysus through a flash of lightning as related in Euripedes "The Bacchae"  and in another through drinking Bacchus’s severed heart in the form of a potion (Hyginus Fabulae 167) both rather obvious Virgin Births that debunk Grateraven's point about Semele. Also on a side note speaking of Robert Graves Even the Randy Zeus according to Graves and Marguerite Rigoglioso was a Virgin Father who gave birth parthenogenetically.     "Dionysus, son of Zeus, is born of a mortal virgin, Semele, who later became immortalized through the intervention of her divine son; Jesus, son of God, is born of a mortal virgin, Mary… such stories can be duplicated over and over again." Edmund Ronald Leach Hugh Jones 108   "While the maiden goddess sat there, peacefully weaving a mantle on which there was to be a representation of the universe, her mother contrived that Zeus should learn of her presence; he approached her in the form of an immense snake. And the virgin conceived the ever-dying, everliving god of bread and wine, Dionysus, who was born and nurtured in that cave, torn to death as a babe and resurrected..." Campbell, MG, 27.     “Semele was also likely a holy parthenos by virtue of the fact that she gave birth to Dionysus via her union with Zeus (Hesiod, Theogony 940)   Marguerite Rigoglioso The Cult of the Divine Birth in Ancient Greece (95)     "Dionysus, like other Sun or Nature deities, was born of a Virgin (Semele or Demeter) untainted by any earthly husband"   Edward Carpanter Pagan and Christisn Creeds (65)     Lastly Greatraven appears to be unaware of Persephone's Virgin mother status despite her marriage to Hades and other consorts.     "The pagan occasion (Jan.6) was in celebration of the birth of the year-god Aion to the Virgin goddess Kore a hellenized transformation of Isis."   Mythologist Joseph Campbell The Mythic Image (34)     "On this day, i.e. on the eighth day before the Calends of January, the Greeks...celebrate a feast that the Romans call Saturnalia, the Egyptians Cronia and the Alexandrines Cicellia. The reason is that the eighth day before the Calends of January forms a dividing-line, for on it occurs the solstice; the day begins to lengthen again and the sun shines longer and with increasing strength until the eighth day before the Ides of January, viz., until the day of Christ’s nativity... The principal of [the] feasts is that which takes place in the so-called Koreion in Alexandria, this Koreion being a mighty temple in the district sacred to Kore. Throughout the whole night the people keep themselves awake here by singing certain hymns and by means of the flute-playing which accompanies the songs they sing to the image of their god. When they have ended these nocturnal celebrations, then at morning cock-crow they descend, carrying torches, into a sort of chapel which is below ground and thence they carry up a wooden image of one lying naked upon a bier. This image has upon its forehead a golden cross and two more such seals in the form of crosses one on each hand... If anyone asks them what manner of mysteries these might be, they reply, saying: “Today at this hour Kore, that is the virgin, has given birth to Aion.” Such things also occur in Petra... The hymns they sing are in the Arabic tongue and are in praise of a virgin whom they call “Chaamu” which is the same as Kore or Parthenos, and in praise of her child “Dusares” which means “Only son of the ruler of all.” The same thing happens on this same night in Alexandria, in Petra and also in the city of Elusa" Hugo Rahner Greek Myth and Christian Mystery (137-38)  For a lengthy discussion of this important passage in Epiphanius, which was edited out of the Migne edition, see Murdock, CIE, 84-88.     Parthenos being the greek word for Virgin!     "This date is not derived from the New Testament which is silent on this matter it my have been chosen in concious opposition to a celebration held in Alexandria on the night of January 5th and the morning of January 6 in honor of the birth of the god Aeon from the Virgin Goddess Kore"   Opening the Bible essays by Howard H Charles (129)       As a title "Parthenos" was apropriate to Demeter and Persephone Donald White (183)     Marguerite Rigoglioso has an entire chapter about Demeter and Persephone In Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity called  Demeter and Persephone: Double Goddesses of Parthenogenesis (99-191)     Lastly as you and I both know Isis was the Virgin Mother of Horus:      "The Pyramid Texts speak of “the great virgin” (hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a…); she is anonymous, appears as the protectress of the king, and is explicitly called his mother once (809c). It is interesting that Isis is addresseed as hwn.t in a sarcophagus oracle that deals with her mysterious pregnancy. In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: “I am the great virgin.”… In the Late Period (712-332 BCE) in particular, goddesses are frequently called “(beautiful) virgins,” especially Hathor, Isis, and Nephthys."   Dr. Jan Bergman, Dr. Helmer Ringgren and Johannas G. Botterweck in The Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament Volume II (339)     So I am Isis. So I am a flame goddess. You are Osiris. I am mother to Horus. I am sister to the god. I am Hmmy.t. I am the Great Virgin.   Temple of Seti I, Chapel of Osiris, West Wall-South Gate (13th century BCE)   Amice M. Calverley and Myrtle F. Broome, The Temple of King Sethos I at Abydos: Volume I, The Chapels of Osiris, Isis and Horus, ed. A.H. Gardiner (London: The Egypt Exploration Society, 1933), pl.9.       Notice how Isis says she is mother to Horus first THAN states that she is "The Great Virgin" On a side note the word maiden is a synonym for Virgin and sometimes the two words are interchangeble to the point of both words meaning a woman who hasent had sex.       “Aeon/Horus was born of the Virgin Isis on 6 January … The Egyptian goddess who was equally ‘the Great Virgin’ (Hwnt) and ‘Mother of the God’ was the object of the very same praises bestowed upon her successor (The Virgin Mary).”     Egyptologist Dr. Reginald E. Witt, Isis in the Ancient World (218) (273)         "Isis was the sacred embodiment of motherhood and yet was known as the Great Virgin an apparent contradiction that will be familiar to Christians"   Egyptologist Dr. James Curl Egyptian Revival (13)         "Isis came to be worshipped as the Primordial Virgin and their child as the Savior of the World. … Her titles included those of Mother of God, Great of Magic, Mistress of Heaven and the New Year, Star of the Sea (in Alexandria), Virgin of the World (in the Hermetic tradition)."   Egyptologist Dr. Bojana Mojsov, Osiris: Death and Afterlife of a God (xii) (xvi)         According to Egyptologist Jan Assman in relation to the severed phallus myth:    "The Egyptian texts which seldom mention this scene know nothing of this detail"    Egyptologist Jan Assman Death and Salvation In Ancient Egypt (25)           "Isis was known as the “great virgin” and as the “mother of the god” among her devotees: in Egyptian mythology, she was credited with  giving birth to the Egyptian solar deity Horus."   Dr. Stephen J. Davis, The Early Coptic Papacy: The Egyptian Church and Its Leadership in Late Antiquity (77)       "Isis had been called both the ‘Mother of the God’, meaning the mother of the divine Horos (Harpocrates), and the ‘Great Virgin’."   Dr. Thomas F. Mathews and Dr. Norman Muller, “Isis and Mary in early icons,” in Images of the Mother of God: Perceptions of the Theotokos in Byzantium (4)         "This Egyptian deity under many names appears as the principle of natural fecundity among nearly all the religions of the ancient world. She was known as the goddess with ten thousand appellations and was metamorphosed by Christianity into the Virgin Mary, for Isis, although she gave birth to all living things – chief among them the Sun – still remained a virgin, according to the legendary accounts."   Manly P Hall (33rd Degree Freemason) The Secret Teachings Of All Ages (119)           “In Egypt the epithets add.t, rnn.t and Hwn.t, ‘girl; young woman; virgin’, are applied to many goddesses—e.g. Hathor and Isis—who had not yet had sexual intercourse.”    Dr. Bob Becking, in Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible (891)       “-Cybele, Aphrodite, Demeter, Astarte, Isis, Hathor, Inanna and Ishtar. Like them she (Mary) is both virgin and mother and like many of them she gives birth to a half-human half-divine child who dies and is reborn”   The Myth Of The Goddess: Evolution Of An Image by Anne Baring and Jules Cashford (548)       “Among the Egyptians, the zodiacal Isis is a virgin mother.”   Romualdo Gentilucci (1848), Life of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary (25)     “PARTHENOGENESIS. The myth that certain divine beings or culture-heroes have owed their birth, to a mother without the co-operation of a father has been found to be widespread. For example, Isis, Cybele, Leto, Demeter, and Venus are all represented as " virgin " mothers. The Chinese culture-hero Hon Chi was born of a mother who conceived by treading in a footprint of God. The principal deity of the Uapes Indians of Brazil, Jurupari, was born of a virgin who conceived after drinking a draught of native beer.”   AN ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGIONS by Maurice Arthur Canney (278)       “Virgin-mothers. Long before the time of Christ parthenogenesis, or reproduction by a virgin, was as familiar to ancient Greek, Egyptian and Oriental legend as it is to modern biology. Guatama Buddha was only one of many Oriental heroes whose mother was a virgin. The Egyptian Horus was conceived by Isis without the direct intervention of a male. Isis has been identified with the Greek Demeter, and Demeter also was a virgin, even when she bore a child, Persephone or Proserpine.”   Heroes and Heroines of fiction by William Shepard Walsh (344)        Of Course It Is worth noting that Isis was Syncretized / Equated with Demeter by many Greek and Roman authors Herodotus being an example already covered thus if Demeter is a Virgin and a mother than so too is Isis.       “As Mithraism moved westward it proved a fertile ground for the addition of mystic meaning. Practically all the symbolism of Osiris was added to the Mithraic cultus even to the fact that Isis became the virgin mother of Mithras.”   Religions Of The World by Gerald L. Berry (56)       “Many parts of the Jesus story are not based on Yeishu or ben Stada. Most Christian denominations claim that Jesus was born on 25 December. Originally the eastern Christains believed that he was born on 6 January. The Armenian Christians still follow this early belief while most Christians consider it to be the date of the visit of the Magi. As pointed out already, Jesus was probably confused with Tammuz born of the virgin Myrrha. We know that in Roman times, the gods Tammuz, Aion and Osiris were identified. Osiris-Aion was said to be born of the virgin Isis on the 6 January and this explains the earlier date for Christmas. Isis was sometimes represented as a sacred cow and her temple as a stable which is probably the origin of the Christian belief that Jesus was born in a stable. Although some might find this claim to be farfetched, it is known as a fact that certain early Christian sects identified Jesus and Osiris in their writings. The date of 25 December for Christmas was originally the pagan birthday of the sun god, whose day of the week is still known as Sunday. The halo of light which is usually shown surrounding the face of Jesus and Christian saints, is another concept taken from the sun god.”   -The Myth Of The Historical Veracity Of Jesus by ben yehoshua hayyim.   http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html       Lastly before moving on it is worth noting that Osiris died before he could consumate his marraige to Isis and take her virginity:       “The marriage of Isis and Osiris was a very brief one, so brief, indeed, that they were not able to consummate their union while Osiris was alive. "Come to me, far face who passed beyond without my having seen him," Isis says after the death of her husband, leading one to suppose that he was murdered before their wedding night.”    Dr. Dimitri Meeks and Dr. Christine Favard-Meeks , Daily Life of the Egyptian Gods (69)      “Isis, taking the shape as a falcon. The lightening-flash strikes and the gods are afraid. Isis wakes pregnant with the seed of her brother Osiris . She is uplifted, even she the widow, and her heart are glad with the seed of her brother Osiris. She says: ‘Oh gods! I am Isis the sister of Osiris who wept for the father of the gods, Osiris, who settled the slaughterings of the Two Lands. His seed is within my body, and it is as the son of the foremost of the Ennead who will rule this land and who will become heir to Geb and who will speak for his father and who will slays Seth, the enemy of his father Osiris, that I have molded the shape of the god within (my) egg. Come, Oh gods, so that you shall make his protection within my womb. Know in your hearts that your lord is he, this god, who is in his egg, blue(?) of form, the lord of the gods. Great is their beauty, namely (that of) the blue barbs(?) of the two plumes’.”   Egyptologist Raymond Faulkner “Translation of Spell 148 of the Coffin Texts” The Journal of Egyptian Archeology 54: (40-44)       “This Apis is the calf of a cow which is never afterwards able to have another. The Egyptian belief is that a flash of light descends upon the cow from heaven, and this causes her to receive Apis.”   Herodotus, Histories 3.28.2        “The Apis, they say, is the animate image of Osiris, and he comes into being when a fructifying light thrusts forth from the moon and falls upon a cow in her breeding-season”   Plutarch, Moralia, 368C       “Apis—a black bull, marked by particular spots and different from other bulls in his tail and in his tongue—is the divinity of all the Aegyptian peoples. He is born only rarely, conceived not from mating cattle, as they say, but miraculously in a celestial fire. The day of his birth is particularly festive to the whole people."   Pomponius Mela, Description of the World.” 1.9.58 (mid 1st cen. CE)      "But Horus was not the only sun-god recognised by the Egyptians. His own father Osiris, the Saviour (of whom Horus was a re-incarnation) was born - also at the winter solstice - of an immaculate virgin, the goddess Neith who like Isis mother of Horus was known by the titles of Mother of God, Immaculate Virgin, Queen of Heaven, Star of the Sea, The Morning Star, The Intercessor."   Wiiliam Williamson The Great Law: A Study of Religious Origins and Of The Unity Underlying Them (26)       "...at the last, when [Osiris's] cult disappeared before the religion of the Man Christ, the Egyptians who embraced Christianity found that the moral system of the old cult and that of the new religion were so similar, and the promises of resurrection and immortality in each so much alike, that they transferred their allegiance from Osiris to Jesus of Nazareth without difficulty. Moreover, Isis and the child Horus were straightway identified with Mary the Virgin and her Son, and in the apocryphal literature of the first few centuries which followed the evangelization of Egypt, several of the legends about Isis and her sorrowful wanderings were made to centre round the Mother of Christ. Certain of the attributes of the sister goddesses of Isis were also ascribed to her, and, like the goddess Neith of Sais, she was declared to possess perpetual virginity. Certain of the Egyptian Christian Fathers gave to the Virgin the title 'Theotokos,' or 'Mother of God,' forgetting, apparently, that it was an exact translation of neter mut, a very old and common title of Isis."   Dr. E.A. Wallis Budge, The Gods of Egypt (xv-xvi)     And Isis was equated with Persephone by Plutarch: "In fact, men assert that Pluto is none other than Serapis and that Persephone is Isis"   Isis-Persephone at Heraklion Museum   So there can be no doubt that Persephone/Kore is a virgin mother of Aeon/Horus, Dionysus, and Jason regardless of any consort/husband she may have had.   Also Last I Checked Jesus Christ had a father too Yahweh/Jehova so I guess by Greatraven's logic that exempts Jesus from being born of a virgin also...     So in conclusion another villainous heathen against the faith has been vanquished in the name of Ra/Osiris/Horus. Also on a side note if you really think about it if Jesus had a father than how is it possible he was Virgin born? infact the whole concept of virgin birth taken literally is absurd for how could a woman give birth to a child without sexual intercourse and also Mormons believe that Elohim fucked Mary to produce Jesus and that she still remained a virgin even afterwards and Mormons have had to come up with elaborate rationalizations to avoid acknoleging this fact....   Which again only makes sense when understanding it from a symbolic or mythological perspective in terms of these "Virgin Mothers" symbolizing Virgo in the Zodiac or the Purity Chakra in the kundalini.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Wow.  You have taught me a lot about the use of bold fonts and colored lettering.

[Clayton_Veno]

32 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Wow.  You have taught me a lot about the use of bold fonts and colored lettering.

Yeah creative isn't it! 

[Joshpantera]

I'll add something else. When going back to these old inscriptions like at Sais, "I Isis am all that ever was, is, or shall ever be! No mortal man has unveiled me. My first fruits were the sun....," these myths can lead the mind somewhere.

 

It isn't about virginity. Or a goddess, for that matter.

 

It's a way of directing the mind backwards to the absolute mystery of causation, or the mystery of origins. The goddess in this sense is representing existence itself as the totality, out of which the sun, moon, stars, earth, and life proceed. That's why it's represented as the great mother. Not because it's female, or a virgin, but because existence gives rise to everything out of itself, without any external source. It's like a virgin mother giving rise to everything that comes into existence. 

 

Basically, this goes to show how much is missed or misrepresented by literalistic, exoteric religionist's of just about any faith. It's a way of completely missing the point of the mythological symbolism and where it comes from.

 

The very act of arguing about whether or not some goddess who has always been called a virgin in mythology, was really a virgin or not, goes right over the persons head. And in the process never enters their focus and does not, therefore, orient the mind back to the 'mystery' of it's own existence. The mythic formula short circuits and never directs the mind back to the first function of a traditional mythology. 

 

Four functions: 

 

1) Mystical

2) Cosmological

3) Societal

4) Pedagogical 

 

These apologists work against the function of the very religious mythologies that they claim to represent. By confusing and confounding the mythological symbols through historical and concrete interpretation. They beg to differ. But I insist. 

 

Of course Isis was a virgin in myth. They have no firm ground to stand on when denying it. The evidence is all there. The meaning is very straight forward. 

 

 

[Clayton_Veno]

16 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

I'll add something else. When going back to these old inscriptions like at Sais, "I Isis am all that ever was, is, or shall ever be! No mortal man has unveiled me. My first fruits were the sun....," these myths can lead the mind somewhere.

 

It isn't about virginity. Or a goddess, for that matter.

 

It's a way of directing the mind backwards to the absolute mystery of causation, or the mystery of origins. The goddess in this sense is representing existence itself as the totality, out of which the sun, moon, stars, earth, and life proceed. That's why it's represented as the great mother. Not because it's female, or a virgin, but because existence gives rise to everything out of itself, without any external source. It's like a virgin mother giving rise to everything that comes into existence. 

 

Basically, this goes to show how much is missed or misrepresented by literalistic, exoteric religionist's of just about any faith. It's a way of completely missing the point of the mythological symbolism and where it comes from.

 

The very act of arguing about whether or not some goddess who has always been called a virgin in mythology, was really a virgin or not, goes right over the persons head. And in the process never enters their focus and does not, therefore, oriented the mind back to the mystery of it's own existence. The mythic formula short circuits and never directs the mind back to the first function of a traditional mythology. 

 

Four functions: 

 

1) Mystical

2) Cosmological

3) Societal

4) Pedagogical 

 

These apologists work against the function of the very religious mythologies that they claim to represent. By confusing and confounding the mythological symbols through historical and concrete interpretation. They beg to differ. But I insist. 

 

Of course Isis was a virgin in myth. They have no firm ground to stand on when denying it. The evidence is all there. The meaning is very straight forward. 

 

 

That is a great point Tat! were talking about symbolism and metaphores not to be understood by the mass majority of "Pagans" out there Greatraven is ignorant of this fact and I was going to respond but for some dumb fucking reason they closed the comments so I wasnt able to respond to what he/she was saying but The fact will remain that Rhea Sylvia, Semele and Persephone were virgin mothers no if ands or buts about it. Also I dont think Greatraven's an apologist but still he or she was esposing alot of crap with those erronious statements indeed...

 

Also by those same standards of logic of these goddesses sons having fathers and therefore the goddesses cannot be concidered virgin mothers he/she could have dismissed the virgin mother status of Isis-Neith and Perseus (something Greatraven doesnt object to) by that very same logic as apologists have quite often done in the past.

[Clayton_Veno]

1 minute ago, Clayton_Veno said:

That is a great point Tat! were talking about symbolism and metaphores not to be understood by the mass majority of "Pagans" out there Greatraven is ignorant of this fact and I was going to respond but for some dumb fucking reason they closed the comments so I wasnt able to respond to what he/she was saying but The fact will remain that Rhea Sylvia, Semele and Persephone were virgin mothers no if ands or buts about it. Also I dont think Greatraven's an apologist but still he or she was esposing alot of crap with those erronious statements indeed...

 

Also by those same standards of logic of these goddesses sons having fathers and therefore the goddesses cannot be concidered virgin mothers he/she could have dismissed the virgin mother status of Isis-Neith and Perseus (something Greatraven doesnt object to) by that very same logic as apologists have quite often done in the past.

"Also by those same standards of logic of these goddesses sons having fathers and therefore the goddesses cannot be concidered virgin mothers he/she could have dismissed the virgin mother status of Isis-Neith and Perseus"

 

OOOOOOPS I meant Danae after Isis-Neith my bad!

[Joshpantera]

Narrowing it all down is an art form. Condensing walls of text into brief, hard hitting points is where it's at. Difficult, but it can be done. 

 

If your posts are too long you will likely have people blocking you or shutting you down at some point. That's important for the purpose of debating these people. Locating the hard hitting points that cause the most damage. And then applying those pressure points. If it goes too long you can lose them, or they can call it spam or whatever. Then the points can't be made. 

[Clayton_Veno]

1 minute ago, Joshpantera said:

Narrow it all down is an art form. Condensing walls of text into brief, hard hitting points is where it's at.

 

If your posts are too long you will likely have people blocking you or shutting you down at some point. That's important for the purpose of debating these people. Locating the hard hitting points that cause the most damage. And then applying those pressure points. 

No Im talking that they closed comments so no one can do it anymore on that page.