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In the thread on Precession as the Framework of Christian Origins, the question was raised if in our past there was a civilization as advanced, or more so, than we are today, and somehow it got destroyed.  I responded that the speculative idea of Atlantis links to the belief in aliens who visited earth and built the pyramids of Giza. Such ideas have been widely promoted in fringe circles as an explanation of belief in Gods, but in mainstream society they are generally rejected due to lack of evidence and implausibility. 

 

Within a generally sceptical framework, I am interested in people’s perspectives on these claims.  How do people address the points that Erich von Däniken made in his bestseller book Chariots of the Gods?  Some of his claims have been refuted, such as the alleged Mayan astronaut painting. But his arguments about the pyramids look more challenging.  Where did the Egyptians get enough wood for rollers to transport 2.6 million stone blocks each weighing up to 80 tonnes?  How do we account for the unprecedented and unrepeated scale, accuracy, design, purpose, geo-location, and geo-ratios?  Why did they use such massive stones? Why is there no soot from burning lights inside the pyramid?  How could the shafts pointing to stars relate to the alleged purpose of providing a tomb? 

 

The construction of the Great Pyramid by visiting aliens using unknown high technology, as a marker of their visit and for other unknown purposes, would answer all these questions, but fails the test of adequate corroborating evidence. Wikipedia has a simple answer, that the pyramid construction methods are well known, as described at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_Däniken#Pyramid_of_Cheops   This critique simply asserts that “the technique of construction is well understood, the tools the Egyptians used are known, marks left in the quarries by those tools are still visible, and many examples of the tools are preserved in museums.”

 

Further detail on currently accepted theories about the pyramids is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza#Construction_theories and https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid/explore/builders.html  That analysis may be plausible as far as it goes, but it begs the many questions raised by Von Däniken.  Even if he was wrong that the assumed techniques of construction would have taken 600 years, the issues of purpose and design remain unanswered. I understand the culture of timidity around these topics, with anyone raising it condemned immediately as idiotic.  So with due caution, I invite comment on these questions.

 

Much writing about ancient aliens such as the “Anunnaki” theory of Zecharia Sitchin has been debunked as imaginative fiction, rather like the Book of Mormon.  Acharya S had to contend with people comparing her to Sitchin, and with the unfair view that all fringe ideas are equally implausible.  She wrote an article available at http://in5d.com/who-are-the-anunnaki/ that presents a well-considered critique of Sitchin’s theory of aliens coming from the planet Nibiru, and of the whole ancient alien idea.  She states: “Rather than representing the “12th planet,” the description of Nibiru in the Enuma Elish seems to depict the personification of the sun and its “exploits.” “Nebo” was the Babylonian version of “Moses,” actually a solar hero, and Nibiru, in fact, is represented by a winged disc, a common motif depicting the sun. According to the consensus of astronomers worldwide, both amateur and professional, there is no evidence for the 12th planet/Nibiru as Sitchin presents it. (In other words, “Planet X” is not a known, astronomical reality.)”

 

There is of course enormous ground for scepticism about ancient aliens, given the absence of clear evidence and the general implausibility of the idea.  However, the main problem as I see it is that questions Von Daniken raised about the impossibility of building the pyramids and their incorporation of amazing knowledge have not been answered.  As with other ancient problems where a dominant weight of opinion suppresses discussion, such as on the historical existence of Jesus Christ, I suggest it is important to remain open to alternative views and to prefer which ever view accords best with evidence.

 

When I visited the British Museum in 2014, I was surprised to see the drawing below on an Egyptian sarcophagus, reminiscent of the ibis headed God Thoth who allegedly founded mathematics.  It made me wonder, if there were aliens, could they have looked like this? 

 

Alien Egypt British Museum.gif

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When you think of the seemingly infinite galaxies, and the possibility of infinite time, I think it is presumptuous to say there aren't aliens, and the possibility of civilizations much more advanced than ours somewhere out there.  And that they may have been to earth, maybe still coming and going,  (unexplained UFOs) and may have even been among us for "eons".  Ha!  For some of you who are older, maybe the story of how superman came to earth isn't so "far fetched".

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48 minutes ago, Weezer said:

When you think of the seemingly infinite galaxies, and the possibility of infinite time, I think it is presumptuous to say there aren't aliens, and the possibility of civilizations much more advanced than ours somewhere out there.  And that they may have been to earth, maybe still coming and going,  (unexplained UFOs) and may have even been among us for "eons".  Ha!  For some of you who are older, maybe the story of how superman came to earth isn't so "far fetched".

13.8 billion years since the Big Bang may not be infinite time, but it certainly gives plenty of opportunity for ancient interstellar civilizations to evolve.  The problem is why SETI efforts have had no success.  Perhaps their communication methods are far in advance of anything we can detect? 

I personally believe that advanced alien support for ancient human development is the most parsimonious explanation for why the hundreds of thousands of years of stone age culture suddenly advanced to metal and mathematics in the pyramid age, and for the truly amazing and inexplicable mysteries of the great pyramid. 

 

The other thing that makes me sympathetic toward such ideas is that nearly ten years ago I saw a UFO that appeared to behave like a flying saucer, as I explained at https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showthread.php?120831-Strange-object-in-Centaurus

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Last night I ordered the book, "The Gods Never Left Us".  I think i read his original book years ago.

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15 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

13.8 billion years since the Big Bang may not be infinite time, but it certainly gives plenty of opportunity for ancient interstellar civilizations to evolve.  The problem is why SETI efforts have had no success.  Perhaps their communication methods are far in advance of anything we can detect? 

 

You never know. That's a good point. 

 

 

 

 

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If there are in fact advanced intelligent beings on other planets, it may be that they're just avoiding us. Could be they've heard about us and are just too intelligent to have anything to do with humans.

Perhaps they've been here in times past and now they're "ghosting us".

 

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Think about it...  with the capability to travel to distant solar-systems, you found this planet and encountered human beings. 

If you had no pressing need to interact with us, what would you do?

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15 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

Think about it... if you had the capability to travel to distant solar-systems, found this planet and encountered human beings..  If you had no pressing need to interact with us, what would you do?

Maybe I would start by placing a marker on the planet to show I had been there, something so big that it would easily be seen from space, too big for the dumb humans to destroy, right at the axis of the longest land meridians, encoding some advanced mathematics of planetary scale, using technology that is far in advance of anything the humans could do...

 

Then keep an eye on them every now and then, using full stealth technology, with a plan to help them out if they ever looked like going extinct.  Maybe even encode in their religious books some mysterious explanation of our prognosis for their future.

 

He'd like to come and meet us but he thinks he'd blow our minds.  Let all the children boogie. (Bowie)  Or to paraphrase the Bible, he told us not to blow it cause he knows its all worthwhile.

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3 minutes ago, Robert_Tulip said:

Then keep an eye on them every now and then, using full stealth technology, with a plan to help them out if they ever looked like going extinct.  Maybe even encode in their religious books some mysterious explanation of our prognosis for their future.

 

 

Or, having spotted us earlier in our evolution, they decided "oh, this is gonna be entertaining!" and planned then to stop by later for a few laughs.

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12 minutes ago, Robert_Tulip said:

Maybe I would start by placing a marker on the planet to show I had been there...

 

An alien version of "hold my beer, and watch this!"

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55 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

If there are in fact advanced intelligent beings on other planets, it may be that they're just avoiding us. Could be they've heard about us and are just too intelligent to have anything to do with humans.

Perhaps they've been here in times past and now they're "ghosting us".

I hadn't seen this word 'ghosting' before.  Found a NYT article on it https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/22/smarter-living/why-people-ghost-and-how-to-get-over-it.html "Ghosting — when someone cuts off all communication without explanation — extends to all things, it seems. Most of us think about it in the context of digital departure: a friend not responding to a text, or worse, a lover, but it happens across all social circumstances and it’s tied to the way we view the world."

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According to my wife, and some of the shows she hears, the fringe folks say that there are not only aliens, but benevolent and malevolent alien groups working with powerful people around the world to push their agenda, gather slaves for off-world work, employ humans in a variety of capacities, and spend time here vacationing (among other things). Some support the "cabal" of ultra-rich people that engage in child sacrifice (the energy given off by their torture feeds certain entities ala Monsters Inc, who then give technology or other help to the cabal), while others work with the military on new tech for craft, and for suppression of knowledge across the globe. 

 

Sometimes she asks how much of it I believe. I typically say, without evidence none of it. I can listen to testimonies that so and so worked off-planet for years and was age-regressed and placed back where he was, but without any actual proof it is just another story. And having spent 30 years believing the Bible stories, I'm fed up with trusting anyone's stories. It is an interesting diversion for her, but for a lot of rabidly pro-Trump folks who follow QAnon, it is reality where Trump is actively shutting down the child sacrifice trafficking and fighting the ultra-rich Satanist cabal and promoting the kingdom of Jesus, as bizarre as that statement appears to the rest of us.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Fuego said:

According to my wife, and some of the shows she hears, the fringe folks say that there are not only aliens, but benevolent and malevolent alien groups working with powerful people around the world to push their agenda, gather slaves for off-world work, employ humans in a variety of capacities, and spend time here vacationing (among other things). Some support the "cabal" of ultra-rich people that engage in child sacrifice (the energy given off by their torture feeds certain entities ala Monsters Inc, who then give technology or other help to the cabal), while others work with the military on new tech for craft, and for suppression of knowledge across the globe. 

 

Sometimes she asks how much of it I believe. I typically say, without evidence none of it. I can listen to testimonies that so and so worked off-planet for years and was age-regressed and placed back where he was, but without any actual proof it is just another story. And having spent 30 years believing the Bible stories, I'm fed up with trusting anyone's stories. It is an interesting diversion for her, but for a lot of rabidly pro-Trump folks who follow QAnon, it is reality where Trump is actively shutting down the child sacrifice trafficking and fighting the ultra-rich Satanist cabal and promoting the kingdom of Jesus, as bizarre as that statement appears to the rest of us.

 

 

Hi Fuego, thanks for this reality check.  Unfortunately this entire topic is infested with conspiracy theory, including the insane beliefs that you describe.  It makes me very cautious in discussing it.  As you imply, the QAnon conspiracy theories are just as mad as young earth creationism.  And then there is the most bizarre alien conspiracy theory of all - David Icke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

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If this alien stuff interests you, and you haven't read "THE GODS NEVER LEFT US", by Daniken, then do so.  I started reading it to help me go to sleep tonight, and it is now 1a.m., and I am wide awake.  VERY INTERESTING STUFF, with some convincing "evidence."  I put that in quotes since I haven't verified his claims.  But dang!  It makes some sense!   I don't often get excited, but this excites me.  I read his Chariots of the Gods, and this is a follow up to it.  He ties aliens in with religious stories, and there is some logic to it.  My interpretation is that they are actually trying to help us ignorant earth people.  

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     C'mon man, this ain't xianity so fringy shit like this is isn't supposed to get refuted.  That ain't open minded or something.  Conspiracies-4-eva.

 

          mwc

 

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On 10/25/2020 at 10:21 PM, Robert_Tulip said:

I personally believe that advanced alien support for ancient human development is the most parsimonious explanation for why the hundreds of thousands of years of stone age culture suddenly advanced to metal and mathematics in the pyramid age, and for the truly amazing and inexplicable mysteries of the great pyramid. 

 

Just out of curiosity - what is your explanation why after 7,000 years of mainly agriculture societies, and relying on sailboat an horseback for travel, suddenly boom, in the blink of an eye time wise we are travelling around in  nuclear powered submarines, putting man on the moon etc, so on and so forth?

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I'm very sceptical and not one to fall for conspiracy theories, and don't believe everything he says, but I definitely see some possibilities here.  Don't do a knee jerk discredit of his information until you have read it with an open mind.  I am a very logical minded person, and I see some logic here.  Even if he is a con artist, he may have stumbled onto some truth.  

 

It is presumptuous to believe that with billions of galaxies out there, and no one knowing how long they have existed, that there is no possibility of beings more advanced than ourselves, that may have visited, and still visit earth.  

 

If nothing else, there is a wealth of info in "THE GODS NEVER LEFT US" about different creation stories around the world and how they are so similar, but couldn't have borrowed from each other.  How do you explain that?  And that is just one example of things that are hard to explain that he offers a logical explanation for.  It is interesting food for thought, and we are a group that encourages approaching subjects with an open mind.

 

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6 hours ago, Weezer said:

I'm very sceptical and not one to fall for conspiracy theories, and don't believe everything he says, but I definitely see some possibilities here.  Don't do a knee jerk discredit of his information until you have read it with an open mind.  I am a very logical minded person, and I see some logic here.  Even if he is a con artist, he may have stumbled onto some truth.  

 

It is presumptuous to believe that with billions of galaxies out there, and no one knowing how long they have existed, that there is no possibility of beings more advanced than ourselves, that may have visited, and still visit earth.  

 

If nothing else, there is a wealth of info in "THE GODS NEVER LEFT US" about different creation stories around the world and how they are so similar, but couldn't have borrowed from each other.  How do you explain that?  And that is just one example of things that are hard to explain that he offers a logical explanation for.  It is interesting food for thought, and we are a group that encourages approaching subjects with an open mind.

 

     So the open minded answer is aliens?  Why?  Just because aliens since no one is handing over another answer?  That's not really a good answer.  It's not really an answer at all.  It's more a suggestion at best.  Perhaps I'm missing it but I'm not in the mood to lay out cash for a follow-on book to one that was full of errors if not outright lies.  If you can point out some tidbits here maybe it can make more sense but given his first work (which I have little recollection of to be honest but it had a little more heat behind it when I was younger) I'm not so sure.

 

          mwc

 

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20 minutes ago, mwc said:

     So the open minded answer is aliens?  Why?  Just because aliens since no one is handing over another answer?  That's not really a good answer.  It's not really an answer at all.  It's more a suggestion at best.  Perhaps I'm missing it but I'm not in the mood to lay out cash for a follow-on book to one that was full of errors if not outright lies.  If you can point out some tidbits here maybe it can make more sense but given his first work (which I have little recollection of to be honest but it had a little more heat behind it when I was younger) I'm not so sure.

 

          mwc

 

"Ancient Aliens" are the new "God of the Gaps" answer for any as yet unanswered questions. It is entirely relevant that this drivel was penned by a convicted con artist.

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1 minute ago, florduh said:

"Ancient Aliens" are the new "God of the Gaps" answer for any as yet unanswered questions. It is entirely relevant that this drivel was penned by a convicted con artist.

     Well, that's what I think.  It smacks of all the sorts of things that came about around that time (and the decades before) like a Scientology or whatnot.  Lots of explanations for things including aliens and pseudo-science.  But I figured since I hadn't perused this new book I'd go ahead and see if these new snippets, if they get posted, offered up anything new or if it was just the same old things just updated and repackaged with what's come along over the years since the last release.

 

          mwc

 

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On 10/28/2020 at 10:30 PM, Robert_Tulip said:

Hi Fuego, thanks for this reality check.  Unfortunately this entire topic is infested with conspiracy theory, including the insane beliefs that you describe.  It makes me very cautious in discussing it.  As you imply, the QAnon conspiracy theories are just as mad as young earth creationism.  And then there is the most bizarre alien conspiracy theory of all - David Icke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

 

Oh yeah, Icke's pretty goldang'd nuts! I find him vaguely entertaining, though. I just wish that there weren't thousands of people who take him seriously.

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21 hours ago, Weezer said:

I'm very sceptical and not one to fall for conspiracy theories, and don't believe everything he says, but I definitely see some possibilities here.  Don't do a knee jerk discredit of his information until you have read it with an open mind.  I am a very logical minded person, and I see some logic here.  Even if he is a con artist, he may have stumbled onto some truth.  

 

It is presumptuous to believe that with billions of galaxies out there, and no one knowing how long they have existed, that there is no possibility of beings more advanced than ourselves, that may have visited, and still visit earth.  

 

If nothing else, there is a wealth of info in "THE GODS NEVER LEFT US" about different creation stories around the world and how they are so similar, but couldn't have borrowed from each other.  How do you explain that?  And that is just one example of things that are hard to explain that he offers a logical explanation for.  It is interesting food for thought, and we are a group that encourages approaching subjects with an open mind.

 

 

BTW, both Florduh and I have come forward with personal UFO witness accounts in past discussions. And we've both argued with people on similar grounds. We don't know what we saw, and have both admitted as much. But it was entirely unidentified whatever the case.

 

Mine was in central Florida in 94' and co witnessed with around 10 friends that evening. We had a hovering craft of some type, no engine noise, pretty close range, stay stationary for some time and then shoot off faster than a plane or helicopter. It was uncomfortable witnessing something that unexplained in person. 

 

Now in the past some skeptics have shot back about the speed of light and general impossibilities to travel to the earth from where ever.

 

Of course the biggest problem with that direction is the fact that it's founded on the assumption that we currently understand all of what is and is not possible in terms of interstellar travel. And that's a tough argument to stand behind. How exactly do we know that? The simple answer is that we obviously do not know that. And can not with intellectually honest integrity profess to know any such thing at this point in time. 

 

Why haven't we found living planets or heard from them? 

 

Again, same conclusion. Do we assume that just because we haven't found them that none exist? Or couldn't exist? 

 

Von Daniken is wrong about a lot of things and makes bad calls in many directions. And yet extraterrestrial visitors may have come here and still come here regardless anything he or anyone else thinks about it. That's another point to make. I'm not convinced by many of his arguments at all. And the history channel show was full of holes.

 

But my friends and I might have witnessed the real thing. Or we could have witnessed something else like a military experiment. We just don't know. But we did witness something unexplained and I often wonder if it was the real thing. And if so, how incredible it was to actually see something like that. Hell, even if it was a military experiment. What are the chances that we would have happened to see it? 

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Don't laugh, make fun of, and totally disregard his material if you haven't read it.  I'm not judging his material on his personality, and I see that he has hyped some of the stuff, and is out in left field with some of it.  But at the same time, some of what he says makes sense.  Write it off and feel smug about it if you want to, but isn't that what we accuse Christians of doing because they don't agree with us, or want to study our resources?  Are you afraid of learning something that would shake your beliefs?

 

I have learned some things about ancient myths in the book THE GODS NEVER LEFT US that would help in arguing with Christians about the bible.  There are many more ancient myths that are similar to the bible than i realized.  And there are some obscure passages that could possibly be explained by alien intervention.  And although I am not well versed in evolution, he raises some interesting questions about certain parts of it.  He believes in it, but questions certain parts.

 

The book, CHARIOTS OF THE GODS was made into a movie and is on YouTube if you have any interest.  If you don't want to waste any money you can watch it for free.  It will give you a taste of what it is all about.  And I got a used book, THE GODS NEVER LEFT US, off Amazon for $9.00.

 

Thank you Robert for starting this thread!  Revisiting the subject has shed some light on thoughts that have crossed my mind through the years, and frankly gives me a little more hope for humanity.  If any of you want to write me off as a looney, senile old man, so be it.  I have always been extremely curious, and try to leave my mind open to possibilities.

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