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9 hours ago, Weezer said:

Don't laugh, make fun of, and totally disregard his material if you haven't read it.  I'm not judging his material on his personality, and I see that he has hyped some of the stuff, and is out in left field with some of it.  But at the same time, some of what he says makes sense.  Write it off and feel smug about it if you want to, but isn't that what we accuse Christians of doing because they don't agree with us, or want to study our resources?  Are you afraid of learning something that would shake your beliefs?

     Are you saying I'm like a xian if I don't read his book?  Or are you somehow trying to taunt me into reading it by stating that I'm too afraid to "learn" or "shake my beliefs"?  To flip this on you isn't this how religions, or cults, recruit?  This kind of works both ways.

 

9 hours ago, Weezer said:

I have learned some things about ancient myths in the book THE GODS NEVER LEFT US that would help in arguing with Christians about the bible.  There are many more ancient myths that are similar to the bible than i realized.  And there are some obscure passages that could possibly be explained by alien intervention.  And although I am not well versed in evolution, he raises some interesting questions about certain parts of it.  He believes in it, but questions certain parts.

     So what are some of these things?  I asked this earlier.  Give me some idea.  Maybe a snippet or two.  Cite something.  Maybe if I come across a copy of the book I'll be able to head over to what impressed you and perhaps that will draw me in?

 

     As it stands I've read (translations) of quite a number of ancient myths as well as quite a bit of history.  I've been on an archaeology mailing list (it was a closed list for field archaeologists that I managed to gain access to) for about fifteen years.  So I'm just curious as to what the aliens have to contribute to all this.  I'm not saying I know everything, or close to it by any means, but I am saying I have wandered down this road a ways and have never found aliens anywhere along the way.  I usually find that people that do have misrepresented the myths and/or timeline and/or cultures in some fashion so that aliens (or some other such thing) is required.

 

     Now, for full disclosure, I will add that I do believe that in a universe as large and as old as ours that I think there is such a thing as aliens.  However, given our estimated location within and the vast distances of travel required that it is highly unlikely that any aliens have ever visited our planet (read: this event has never happened).  I've essentially said this a number of times on this site before.

 

     Now, just like with gods, if there is actual evidences for aliens I am willing to have a look.  So far I've not seen anything convincing.  I've seen and heard stories that folks strongly believe are aliens.  When I was younger a friend and I saw "something" that we wrote off as a UFO but it was likely a plane acting in a way we couldn't explain (and I still cannot).  I'm not eager to write off the unexplained as ghosts, gods or aliens.

 

          mwc

 

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On 10/23/2020 at 7:51 AM, Robert_Tulip said:

In the thread on Precession as the Framework of Christian Origins, the question was raised if in our past there was a civilization as advanced, or more so, than we are today, and somehow it got destroyed.  I responded that the speculative idea of Atlantis links to the belief in aliens who visited earth and built the pyramids of Giza. Such ideas have been widely promoted in fringe circles as an explanation of belief in Gods, but in mainstream society they are generally rejected due to lack of evidence and implausibility. 

 

Within a generally sceptical framework, I am interested in people’s perspectives on these claims.  How do people address the points that Erich von Däniken made in his bestseller book Chariots of the Gods?  Some of his claims have been refuted, such as the alleged Mayan astronaut painting. But his arguments about the pyramids look more challenging.  Where did the Egyptians get enough wood for rollers to transport 2.6 million stone blocks each weighing up to 80 tonnes?  How do we account for the unprecedented and unrepeated scale, accuracy, design, purpose, geo-location, and geo-ratios?  Why did they use such massive stones? Why is there no soot from burning lights inside the pyramid?  How could the shafts pointing to stars relate to the alleged purpose of providing a tomb? 

 

The construction of the Great Pyramid by visiting aliens using unknown high technology, as a marker of their visit and for other unknown purposes, would answer all these questions, but fails the test of adequate corroborating evidence. Wikipedia has a simple answer, that the pyramid construction methods are well known, as described at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_Däniken#Pyramid_of_Cheops   This critique simply asserts that “the technique of construction is well understood, the tools the Egyptians used are known, marks left in the quarries by those tools are still visible, and many examples of the tools are preserved in museums.”

 

Further detail on currently accepted theories about the pyramids is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza#Construction_theories and https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid/explore/builders.html  That analysis may be plausible as far as it goes, but it begs the many questions raised by Von Däniken.  Even if he was wrong that the assumed techniques of construction would have taken 600 years, the issues of purpose and design remain unanswered. I understand the culture of timidity around these topics, with anyone raising it condemned immediately as idiotic.  So with due caution, I invite comment on these questions.

 

Much writing about ancient aliens such as the “Anunnaki” theory of Zecharia Sitchin has been debunked as imaginative fiction, rather like the Book of Mormon.  Acharya S had to contend with people comparing her to Sitchin, and with the unfair view that all fringe ideas are equally implausible.  She wrote an article available at http://in5d.com/who-are-the-anunnaki/ that presents a well-considered critique of Sitchin’s theory of aliens coming from the planet Nibiru, and of the whole ancient alien idea.  She states: “Rather than representing the “12th planet,” the description of Nibiru in the Enuma Elish seems to depict the personification of the sun and its “exploits.” “Nebo” was the Babylonian version of “Moses,” actually a solar hero, and Nibiru, in fact, is represented by a winged disc, a common motif depicting the sun. According to the consensus of astronomers worldwide, both amateur and professional, there is no evidence for the 12th planet/Nibiru as Sitchin presents it. (In other words, “Planet X” is not a known, astronomical reality.)”

 

There is of course enormous ground for scepticism about ancient aliens, given the absence of clear evidence and the general implausibility of the idea.  However, the main problem as I see it is that questions Von Daniken raised about the impossibility of building the pyramids and their incorporation of amazing knowledge have not been answered.  As with other ancient problems where a dominant weight of opinion suppresses discussion, such as on the historical existence of Jesus Christ, I suggest it is important to remain open to alternative views and to prefer which ever view accords best with evidence.

 

When I visited the British Museum in 2014, I was surprised to see the drawing below on an Egyptian sarcophagus, reminiscent of the ibis headed God Thoth who allegedly founded mathematics.  It made me wonder, if there were aliens, could they have looked like this? 

 

Alien Egypt British Museum.gif

 

 

I can't remember if he has been mentioned in this thread, but the late author Zecharia Sitchin also wrote on this topic. He has a truly fascinating take on "ancient astronauts", and was a prolific writer.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin

 

Be sure to check him out! I don't necessarily believe all that he wrote, but the topic is very interesting.

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@Weezer

 

Well this comes down to issues like the Anunnaki and the Egyptian Neters, or gods.

 

Mythicist writers have shown where these gods are generally well understood as personifications of natural forces, such as solar or lunar deities, elemental deities and so on. I've seen history channel episodes of ancient aliens where they make huge logic leaps about gods such as Apollo, who is clearly a solar personification and not literally a personal being, such as a literal alien. That's not the way that the myths are set up and I think it discredited the program a lot by trying to logic leap in instances like this example. 

 

But where it gets more foggy is how so many of these cultures like the Sumerian, Egyptian, and Dogon, seemed to believe that they had ancestors who came down from the stars. That's pretty specific. So there seems to be a mix of solar and lunar personification along with beliefs that ancestors came down from the stars working all together. I have Chariots of the Gods on my book shelf. But I have several books from Laird Scranton too, which go into a lot greater depth on this topic: 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Meanings-Laird-Scranton/dp/1401088767

 

Scranton converted to Judaism for his wife. He's a computer programmer. Over time he began to see programming skills at work in the myths, basically. This is fun stuff. I don't mean to promote it as factual, although it could be. What comes out of this is that he found links between the symbolism of judaism, Egyptian, and similar myths from the Dogon of Mali. When you go ahead and assume that clay pots and serpents represent waves and particles, the bottom drops out and you're looking at description of material break down to the atomic level. And reproduction and genetics. This is a wild, wild, ride that Scranton takes the reader on. And then it's a matter who the hell encoded it into the symbolism of the oldest civilizations???

 

@Weezer

 

Here's an interview if anyone is interested in seeing what Scranton has to say and how he describes his research: 

 

 

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7 hours ago, mwc said:

 

     So what are some of these things?  I asked this earlier.  Give me some idea.  Maybe a snippet or two.  Cite something.  Maybe if I come across a copy of the book I'll be able to head over to what impressed you and perhaps that will draw me in?

 

If it sounds interesting, look into it.  If not, you are free to move on to another thread.

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6 minutes ago, Weezer said:

If it sounds interesting, look into it.  If not, you are free to move on to another thread.

     I thought I was looking into it but I guess there's nothing to actually see.

 

          mwc

 

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10 minutes ago, Weezer said:

If it sounds interesting, look into it.  If not, you are free to move on to another thread.

 

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It amazes me how some of you guys are sarcastic and seem eager to pounce on someone you dont agree with.  Not optimum characteristics for someone posting on a "support" forum.

 

I never said I bought Daniken's work hook, line, and sinker.  And the more I read, the more hype and misinformation I saw.  But I do not rule out the possibility of aliens visiting earth.  Even as a teenager in the 1950s, before even thinking of aliens, I questioned how the writer of Genesis got the general order of creation similar to evolution.  Can any of you answer that?  And are you saying that aliens have NOT visited earth?

 

 

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On 11/11/2020 at 11:07 AM, florduh said:

Good summary, except for this:

 

"As for Egypt, it has a long, continuous historical and archaeological record. The Egyptians left detailed accounts of their methods for creating monumental architecture, and for moving massive stones and statues. Also, there are primitive early pyramids, completely botched and collapsed pyramids, pyramid block quarries with tools still lying there, wall paintings of engineering methods, mathematical texts setting architectural problems for pyramid construction, and many other relevant interrelated records of mathematics, technology and culture. There are actually very few legitimate archaeological mysteries concerning the purpose, construction, or properties of the pyramids— despite tons of rubbish produced by occultists and crackpots claiming the contrary in the face of all the evidence."

 

From my reading, the above is largely false, and does nothing to explain the construction of the Great Pyramids of Giza, which are far too big, exact and weird for any of these simple explanations to suffice.  Egyptian methods for moving massive stones and carving diorite are not known (to my knowledge).  The star tubes in the Great Pyramid remain a total mystery.  

 

Here is an interesting piece on carving diorite, from  a site with a lot of interesting information on the Pyramids.  https://www.theglobaleducationproject.org/egypt/articles/petrie.php

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8 hours ago, Weezer said:

I never said I bought Daniken's work hook, line, and sinker.  And the more I read, the more hype and misinformation I saw.  But I do not rule out the possibility of aliens visiting earth.  Even as a teenager in the 1950s, before even thinking of aliens, I questioned how the writer of Genesis got the general order of creation similar to evolution.  Can any of you answer that?  And are you saying that aliens have NOT visited earth?

 

I had the same thought, fast forward to the late 90's. That's what got my attention about how badly constructed Genesis 1 actually is. I thought that it generally had evolution ordered right. And that taking it more literal than usual might turn up something.

 

That's when all of the problems jumped out. Light before the luminaries. Days before days could exist. Land coming out of the sea, rather than a dry planet eventually getting oceans through comet bombardment, and Grass growing before the sun existed for photosynthesis. Fish and Birds popping up. Not fish, dinosaurs and reptile's running the earth until evolving into birds. Then after all these contradictions, land animals and man. The only part that seems as if it lines up is the tail end where land animals come before man. 

 

This is where guys like Von Daniken can get into trouble. They will try and present evidences that don't work out.

 

And yet, regardless of any of that, the underlying situation is that aliens could well have visited and still visit the earth. None of Von Daniken or any of the other speculators are necessary for that possibility. Aliens may well visit the earth. People see unexplained flying objects fairly often.

 

It's just that the problem is the same as with gods. You can't prove a negative, and the burden of proof for existence falls on the person making the claim. So we're left with another agnostic situation that may or may not be true, unless firmly proven in some undeniable way. 

 

 

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If belief in a 'higher power' originates with ancient extraterrestrials and they plan to return (openly that is), will they be all angry and vengeful because we lacked belief in them?

 

I mean hell, we have enough bad attitudes here now.

The last thing we need is some pissed-off "I'm the supreme being, dammit!" attitude being thrown around. Perhaps if we develop the right weaponry something can be done. We've made good progress in directed-energy beam weapons and electric rail-guns. Lets not just give up.

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

 

The last thing we need is some pissed-off "I'm the supreme being, dammit!" attitude being thrown around. Perhaps if we develop the right weaponry something can be done. We've made good progress in directed-energy beam weapons and electric rail-guns. Lets not just give up.

 

I don't see any need to be afraid.  If they indeed exist, and from the bits of evidence that might possibly exist about there possible visits, I think they see us as we see a human toddler struggling to grow up.  They understand our struggles because they have been in our shoes, and occasionally give suggestions and possibly some help along the way. 

 

If you compare the situation to mature, rational thinking adults raising children, they understand there is a delicate balance between letting the child do for him/herself, and build a sense of success and achievement, leading to pulling his own weight when grown, and that doing too much for the child, and not letting them suffer the consequences of their own behavior, robs them of developing their own potential and a sense of being worthwhile.  They also understand that abusive, harsh treatment and belittling a child undermines their developing into productive adults who feel worthwhile.

 

It is the opposite of old testament teaching of original sin and humans being unworthy "worms", and beating, and scaring children into submission.  I just don't see that they are, if they exist, vengeful, narcissistic, beings.  They have evolved into the understanding that respect for life is in the best interest of all.   By the way, this correlates with Kohlbergs theory of the moral development of humans.  We can hope, at least for future generations, that we are evolving in a more mature direction.  It seems we are suffering from a setback at the present time.

 

And if aliens exist and are as advanced as they seem to be, and are jealous narcissist, they would know we were about to challenge them, and would zap us before we got the chance.  I think the only beings we need to worry about are here on earth.  So far I am not aware of any vengeful, destructive acts of reported alien visits. 

 

And I admit there is no hard evidence that aliens exist.  Just the possibilities. 

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I might add that if the possible aliens have the advanced technology they seem to have, they have no need for us or our resources.  If they need Minerals to support making their "computers" or other equipment, all they have to do is visit another of the billions of planets or space rocks that are not inhabited, and take home all they need.   And if they need free labor, they can build robots.  And why would they want to have sex with "baboons"?  And if they are that advanced technology wise, they may be that advanced moral wise.  I said this before, but will repeat it.  I am encouraged by the possibility they exist.  Daniken may be a daffy, immoral, con artist, but I am excited about the whole concept he writes about. 

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On 11/13/2020 at 2:21 PM, Weezer said:

...And if aliens exist and are as advanced as they seem to be, and are jealous narcissist, they would know we were about to challenge them, and would zap us before we got the chance...

 

.

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On 11/13/2020 at 2:56 PM, Weezer said:

 And if they need free labor, they can build robots.  And why would they want to have sex with "baboons"? 

And if they are that advanced technology wise, they may be that advanced moral wise.  I said this before, but will repeat it.  I am encouraged by the possibility they exist.... 

 

What if they're bored after all these years and just want entertainment?

They surely noticed from their initial visit just what a bunch of reprobate buffoons we tend to be.

 

 

The opening scenes in Kubrick's film treatment of '2001 A Space Odyssey' come to mind in spite of my best efforts otherwise. 

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The military witnesses are what I find the most interesting. Because it's contemporary and easier to navigate through. The mystery propulsion systems are certainly interesting. What I saw was very much like what they recorded. Except I could not make out an outline of the vehicle. It had lights, it was there, and it was dead silent. And it shot off fast. 

 

On 11/13/2020 at 2:56 PM, Weezer said:

I might add that if the possible aliens have the advanced technology they seem to have, they have no need for us or our resources.  If they need Minerals to support making their "computers" or other equipment, all they have to do is visit another of the billions of planets or space rocks that are not inhabited, and take home all they need.   And if they need free labor, they can build robots.  And why would they want to have sex with "baboons"?  And if they are that advanced technology wise, they may be that advanced moral wise.  I said this before, but will repeat it.  I am encouraged by the possibility they exist.  Daniken may be a daffy, immoral, con artist, but I am excited about the whole concept he writes about. 

 

Yes, these theories are full of holes. Especially the slave labor theories (Star Gate). An advanced civilization would no doubt have advanced ability to create robots for labor, why wouldn't they? And of course the universe is full of minerals and natural resources. Ice comets to mine for ice if transporting water back to some location was an objective. How did water here to the earth? Heavy bombardment is the only theory I'm aware of that makes sense. The water comes from ice out there. 

 

This outlines why I'm not particular fearful of the possibility of aliens or alien visitation. Going on what ever evidences we have (military recording and eye witness accounts), whatever may be observing is clearly doing that, just observing. Looking at us scientifically, if anything. Seeing that we are less advanced and likely pose no threat to them. They likely pose no threat to us either, considering. And if they are so advanced, why would they not be that advanced in terms of morals and everything else. All very good points Weezer. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Some people think the metal "monolith" found in remote southern Utah recently is of alien orgin.  It is going to be interesting to see what is decided about it.  It appears to be imbedded in rock, but no sign of drilling and being cemented in place. 

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14 hours ago, Weezer said:

Some people think the metal "monolith" found in remote southern Utah recently is of alien orgin.  It is going to be interesting to see what is decided about it.  It appears to be imbedded in rock, but no sign of drilling and being cemented in place. 

 

This may not be interesting unless you are a back country explorer like me, but the mystery has been solved.  On closer inspection they found evidence of saw marks in the rock.  Someone went to great pains to insert a 12 ft tall stainless steel triangular "pole" in the rock.  Large enough for a person to sit on top of it.  And from satellite images they can tell it was put there in late 2015 or early 2016.  Dang!  I was hoping it would be alien.  Strange coincidence.  In 2014 I was 1/4 mile from the site when crossing the desert in my Jeep on the east side of Canyon Lands National park.   Getting the material and equipment to the site was quite a feat. 

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